Slow old doctorfrog and the Start From Heck

[doctorfrog]

I play AI War pretty regularly, but extremely casually. I rarely play for more than three to ten hours per game before learning a few new things and starting a new galaxy. I play about 3 or 4 times a week as I have time. I've never beat the game, but I've started a whole bunch, and died a few times also.

So I'm no veteran, but I'm not a complete noob either. But this is a peculiarly aggressive start. I usually have time to lay down some elementary defenses, a standing army, and can pretty calmly explore a few systems, even with all the bells and whistles of the various expansion packs on, before encountering attack waves and other AI harassment.

Not this time. My first run through I lasted five minutes before being attacked by 80 ships in one go, many of whom are either cloaked, or ignore force fields. The Reactors were killed quickly, then the Constructors. I had no opportunity to research items, as Sci stations were blasted immediately upon construction. With no power to turrets, there were few defenses. My ships were destroyed. The force field bubble shrank. My Command exploded  very quickly.

Second try. I tried populating the system exclusively with ships set to FRD. Pretty much the same result.

Third try: balanced, aggressive stance, with both ships and good amount of turrets back at the home base. I think I lasted 7 minutes this time.

It seems to be a combination of cloaked raider type ships and blade spawners that delivers that one-two punch. I'm not really sure as I don't have the catalog of ships memorized. Unless I'm prepared for them specifically, there's not much of a chance for me at my skill level.

I'm not really interested in tactics for this particular save state or start position, because I just play the game as a game, not as an exercise in personal perfection or system optimization. I will just start another game, and play how I like to play. I'm just wondering:

• Is this a particularly "bad roll" or lethal combination when it comes to galaxy or AI combination?
• Or is this a game bug, in that this type of aggression should not show this early under normal circumstances?
• Have I been playing AI War too casually, and this is how it's really supposed to be, less a stream that you drift in than a river that expects you to paddle swiftly right out of the gate? (in which case, this is probably not the game I took it for).

Save included.

[PokerChen]

First step after beginning a new game: use your scouts to observe neighbouring planets, and see what the enemy has unlocked. This tells you whether you need to unlock defensive turrets right away.

Now for the breakdown:
- Your yellow AI is definitely a Stealth Master (it has lots of stealthed ship-type unlocks), who has also unlocked those Spire Blade Spawners.
- Your red AI is a Radar Jammer, which is okay.

If you're seeing small numbers of cloaked enemies on most planets, you know you'll need tachyon beam emitters on every incoming wormhole. Since you happen to begin on a very-well traversed system with Astrotrains, preferably take the stealth upgrade as well (Did you choose this planet on purpose, or did you random? ) Spire blade spawners will also need countering (they're amongst the best ship-types) - that is done by gravity turrets (gravity turrets will slow non-immune enemy ships down to 8, including those blades).

Those two unlocks will make your life much, much easier.

W.r.t. randomisation, *if* you happen to like not choosing a planet at the start and letting the pRNG decide - you've got a tough roll. Those Astrotrains will damage your turrets that you need for defense, and you've got 5 incoming wormholes to cover with your tachyon and grav-fields. Specifically, this game is perfectly fine if you started close to a corner with fewer connections. As it is, you're right on the galactic highway with lots of stealthed ships that could jump in, *and* special forces guards will pass through your systemon its regular patrols.

It's worth the challenge though, if you have a 0:00 save or close. Use those turrets and I'd advise unlocking metal+crystal harvestors (personally speaking). Strap yourself in just once more and see how you go.

= = = =
More edits: I think your point about casual play is interesting. There are some 7/7 games in which you can just float downriver until the late stages, especially when the AI gets conservative unlocks such as laser gatlings & grenade launchers (the ones that don't have very special abilities).

This isn't one of them.

[barryvm]

I had the same problem at the start of my recent game (also against a stealth master and raider with astro trains).
To combat the astro trains you could try to move the grav turrets further away from the wormholes, anticipating the path attackers will take or build them under a force field in combo with a few flak turrets to kill the blades which won't be stopped by the force field (flak turrets suffer much less attack penalty under force fields).
To kill the blade spawners you could also use a fast response fighter fleet stationed under a force field with tachyon coverage for protection against the stealth ships.
The recent buffs to scout starships makes them pretty decent (stealthed) tachyon detectors as well but I don't know if they would be cheaper than the tachyon turrets.
A whole lot of sniper turrets might also work great in combo with grav turrets but this would probably be very expensive.

You could also try to gate raid to force the waves to take the most convenient (for you) wormhole and concentrate tachyon and gravity coverage there.
Try to at least partially neuter all adjacent planets as soon as possible to minimize border agression but the cloaked blade spawners would make any offensive move painfull to say the least.

At the very start of the game I did unlock fighter Mk II, tachyon and grav turrets and started spamming all three of these and it did work but it seems you picked a very unlucky combination there.

[Diazo]

Not this time. My first run through I lasted five minutes before being attacked by 80 ships in one go, many of whom are either cloaked, or ignore force fields. The Reactors were killed quickly, then the Constructors. I had no opportunity to research items, as Sci stations were blasted immediately upon construction. With no power to turrets, there were few defenses. My ships were destroyed. The force field bubble shrank. My Command exploded  very quickly.

I find this odd.

Did any of your own ships leave your system before the 80 ships arrived? There is supposed to be a grace period in which the AI will not do anything to you (as long as you do nothing to it) at the start of the game. This grace period is only 3 or 4 minutes long though.

(I remember this grace period being implemented back when high early game threat was a real problem if someone wants to double check my memory.)

D.

[doctorfrog]

I find this odd.

Did any of your own ships leave your system before the 80 ships arrived? There is supposed to be a grace period in which the AI will not do anything to you (as long as you do nothing to it) at the start of the game. This grace period is only 3 or 4 minutes long though.

(I remember this grace period being implemented back when high early game threat was a real problem if someone wants to double check my memory.)

D.

Just a few scouts, which I think are not supposed to aggravate the AI.

[Hearteater]

What difficulty?  Maybe a Special Forces patrol you just got really unlucky with?  On 10/10 I've had a fair chunk of border ships attack my homeworld before the first wave if I don't have my defenses built up.

[TechSY730]

In my experience, the "grace period" of the AI is closer to 1 minute.

As for the 80 ships popping in for no seemingly no reason, I've seen this happen before with special forces, though usually it is not that bad.

What difficulty are you playing on?
IIRC:
At around 6-7, special forces will be willing to go into hostile planets (read, player planets) if they have no other choice and are not severely out "firepowered" by the planet they are thinking about going into.
At around 7-8.x, special forces will be willing to go into hostile planets if they have no other choice or if any other way is much longer, and are not severely out "firepowered" by the planet they are thinking about going into.
At around 8.x-10, special forces won't even bother trying to avoid player planets, they just take the shortest path (again, waiting if they are severely out "firepowered" by the planet they are thinking about going into)

Before around 6, special forces will never go into player planets, regardless of if there is another route or not. Only when they are freed (aka. angered) will they start considering going into player planets.

[Diazo]

I find this odd.

Did any of your own ships leave your system before the 80 ships arrived? There is supposed to be a grace period in which the AI will not do anything to you (as long as you do nothing to it) at the start of the game. This grace period is only 3 or 4 minutes long though.

(I remember this grace period being implemented back when high early game threat was a real problem if someone wants to double check my memory.)

D.

Just a few scouts, which I think are not supposed to aggravate the AI.

Hmmm.

I suspect this might need checking. In a couple games I've given the auto-scout command as soon as the game has started and gotten AI ships attacking in the first few minutes.

It has gotten to the point that I don't scout until I have my initial defenses set up. If my scouts don't leave my system it feels like a longer time before I see AI ships in my home system.

It is just a feeling and I can't prove it, but I do delay scouting until the 4-5 minute mark usually so I can get those first 30 turrets built and a fighter screen up before my scouts go out.

What have other people seen?

D.

[TechSY730]

(stripped subquotes)

Just a few scouts, which I think are not supposed to aggravate the AI.

Hmmm.

I suspect this might need checking. In a couple games I've given the auto-scout command as soon as the game has started and gotten AI ships attacking in the first few minutes.

It has gotten to the point that I don't scout until I have my initial defenses set up. If my scouts don't leave my system it feels like a longer time before I see AI ships in my home system.

It is just a feeling and I can't prove it, but I do delay scouting until the 4-5 minute mark usually so I can get those first 30 turrets built and a fighter screen up before my scouts go out.

What have other people seen?

D.

Well, I know that the Spirecraft scouts cause planets to go on alert, which causes any special forces ships to become "angered" and thus freed.
I think there was a bug previously where the starship nature of the scout starship was causing planets to go on alert , though I think that has been fixed.

Personally, I have never seen any ship freed due to scout presence, not even when I send the scouts I start with right at the beginning of the game.

[PokerChen]

I'm pretty sure it's actually doctorfrog's HW placement - his home planet divides the galaxy in half and forces any special forces travelling from one side to the other to go through his house. If you send a scout immediately after load to Belina, you'll see a Blade Spawner and a Fighter coming from the SF guard-post into your wormhole. Most of the initial yellows are of this type.

Inevitably, one of the patrols will contain Etherjets, which will probably drag a ship off and actually alert the AI.

[doctorfrog]

For those asking, difficulty was a flat 7, with all the bells and whistles turned on, and everything is set to difficulty 4 that can be set to difficulty 4. Golems are set to Hard/4, and Spire campaign is set to Medium.