Author Topic: Small galaxy dilemma: Managing an alerted core world  (Read 2208 times)

Offline Martyn van Buren

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Small galaxy dilemma: Managing an alerted core world
« on: May 25, 2011, 03:24:35 pm »
I was a bit foolish, and took a world without scouting past it---and then found out it was next to the core.  So now I have a core world irrevocably on alert, and I'm trying to figure out what to do with it.  I'm playing a 30-planet map, so I haven't got a lot of breathing room.  And as a matter of fact, I'm an hour and twenty minutes in and only have two Mark II unlocks so far, tho I have about 12,000 knowledge saved up.  Anyway, I can see what X meant calling "a cage match with the AI" on the Wiki.

What would people do with this?  First, I guess, I'll go pot-shot the command center on a world with a lot of wormholes to spread out reinforcements, but I'm still nervous about leaving a core world to build up right on my doorstep.  I'm thinking of taking a few unlocks and going in with a ton of neinzul and a golem or two, hopefully killing enough guard posts to prevent a big buildup while leaving the command station so I don't get a homeworld on alert. It seems just feasible, with clever tactics.  But that would still put the homeworld on alert for a while, and even with golems I don't think I have the economy to go straight in there.  Still, I guess it's the right path; 30 planets and Neinzul bonus ships means you're going for a speed game, right?

While I'm on the topic, can I remark on how ridiculously tricked-out a 30-planet map with all expansions can get?  I've just realized I shouldn't have taken this last world, with "only" an ARS, a Zenith Beam fabricator, Mark III and IV ion cannons, a Zenith reserve, and a broken armored golem; next to the other core I could have got an ARS, two fabricators, a cursed golem, and a data center.  Or on the other side of this one four fabricators and a botnet golem.  I reckon I'm going to need a lot of that pretty soon, but it's pretty novel seeing worlds like that.

Offline x4000

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Re: Small galaxy dilemma: Managing an alerted core world
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2011, 03:40:29 pm »
Well, this is always a tricky situation when you put the core world on alert that early -- that said, in the worst case let's assume that you leave it on alert and it builds up to being fully-staffed by the time you get there.  That doesn't mean you're going to lose the game, or are going to be unable to take the homeworld; I've done plenty of games where there were that many ships there.  And frankly, once you start attacking that homeworld it's going to start growing pretty fast, anyway.

So why do I recommend not alerting the homeworlds too soon?  Same reason it's good not to sit on your front porch right under a wasp's nest.  Odds are fine those wasps won't really mess with you... for a while... much.  If you can avoid stirring things up, that's always the prudent thing to do. 

Once you've already stirred things up, though... that becomes a different question.  Now it's about how you can best win the game in the shortest amount of time with the least grind, all things being equal.  That might still mean a 10-hour game, I'm not saying it's now definitely the time to rush for the finish line.  I just mean shortest in a relative sense.

If you've got some golems, make sure they don't have orbital mass drivers on that home planet.  If they do, you're really going to be hard-pressed to take that planet even with the golem, because that OMD is going to own the golem.  If that's the case, you're going to want to go for higher bomber unlocks, then cap the OMD, then bring in the golems.  Then get the ion cannons, since those are going to chomp your low-level stuff and prevent them from being filler for the regular AI ships to shoot at there.

Depending on exactly what the home planet looks like, that may be a tall order, and if you're not careful you might lose a golem for not much and then have lost that resource permanently -- that's the main risk I see here, aside from just the general loss of time (and thus AI reinforcement buildup on this and other planets) if you attack and fail at this stage.  Of course, there's also the big risk of breakaway mark V ships ripping through your low-level planets unopposed and actually costing you the game in the next few hour of gameplay if things go really badly.

So you could make a series of concerted raids, and try to whittle down the AI homeworld to where it has few or no guard posts left, and that would certainly be one way to go.  If you can manage that, you may as well finish it off, because you're most of the way there anyhow.  And even without guard posts, the ship cap on the homeworlds is fairly abnormally high compared to other AI planets.  Anyway, let's call that option A.

Option B would be to just ignore the homeworld and go about your business.  Conserve your existing golem, and get more.  Make sure you get mark IV bombers.  Get other unlocks and other higher-level ships.  Maybe also invest abnormally much into bomber starships or siege starships in anticipation of a tough series of battles later.  Then when you are fully kitted out, however many hours later, try to take out that "fully armed and operational battlestation," so to speak. ;)  If you do take option B, there are even a couple of variants for that:

B.1. In this case, you basically go for the OMDs and the ion cannons as before, then start going after each guard post in turn with the largest force you can, trying to keep from losing your golems.  Let's call this the brute-force divide and conquer approach.

B.2. In this case, keep your golems and in fact most of your ships on your planet and don't send them to the AI -- they're going to be playing goalie.  Now load up three or four transports full to the brim with bombers, bomber starships, and maybe siege starships.  Then take only those (plus some chaff to draw fire if you want -- whatever low-value ships that you have that you can spare in large quantities to draw fire off the bombers) in transports and go through the process: OMDs, then ions, then guard posts (ignore the defenders of each thing, just concentrate fire on the thing itself).  Your bomber-stuff will die, and so will your transports, and you'll build more between each wave you make in -- probably one wave per thing you're trying to kill, unless you get lucky.  In between times, your other ships are playing goalie and killing everything that gets freed on your planet or just inside the wormhole on the AI's side (depending on how the AI acts).  You can also do sort of a hybrid of this approach using lots of turrets and mines and taking more ships in each raiding party, but that's more chancey and most costly to rebuild for between each wave you send in.


Anyway, those are some options, and there are actually other ways you could do it, too, depending on the specifics of the planet and your fleet and what ships you have available.  But in a general sense, those are the three overall strategies that I think make the most sense based on what you describe.

Good luck! :)
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Offline Martyn van Buren

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Re: Small galaxy dilemma: Managing an alerted core world
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2011, 04:03:28 pm »
Thanks a lot!  One thing, though, if you've got time: what I've alerted isn't a homeworld (thank god), but one of the core planets next to it.  Sorry, wasn't too clear about that.  I'm thinking the same general ideas apply --- certainly the same tactics --- but I'm tempted to think that Mark IV guard posts are enough weaker than Mark V that I might be able to make a decent dent in it with what I have plus a few unlocks.  On the other hand, assuming I can hold off border aggression, a lot of ships on a core-perimeter world won't be nearly as much trouble down the line as on the homeworld, so I could just ignore it and bank on transporting my ships over it later on.  Your advice would be to leave it, then?

Offline x4000

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Re: Small galaxy dilemma: Managing an alerted core world
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2011, 04:13:38 pm »
Oh, my misunderstanding -- you actually used "core world" correctly, and I'm so used to people using that wrongly I just assumed.  ;)

In terms of the core world, that's a lot less severe.  Certainly it's best not to alert them if you can avoid it, but it's something that I regularly wind up having to do even in my 80-planet games from time to time.  Generally speaking, I don't try to take those worlds ever -- because then that does alert the home planet of the AI in a way I would prefer to avoid.

You have basically a few bad things that are going to happen to you now that you've alerted a core world, and how you feel about these will decide your course of action:

1. You're going to start getting mark V spillover from that planet in the form of border aggression.  This might not kick in for a long time, though, and it might be small enough that you can deal with it in small chunks.  (But, since the AI stalks now, that means that this might not be such a minor event, and it might hit you at just the wrong time).

2. You're going to have a harder time transporting your ships through this planet to the AI homeworld because of all the buildup.  If there's another core planet next to that homeworld that you can route through instead, then this matters not at all.  If this is the only path in, it's a challenge, but not that huge of one; at some point you'll just have to cap enough guard posts here that your transports can survive through.  And golems (that part is more tricky, since they are slow and can't go in transports).

That's all I can think of off the top of my head, although look carefully at the special ships on that planet to make sure there's not something worse lurking there that would cause problems later.  Anyway, if the border aggression scares you, you can go ahead and try to partially or completely neuter the planet of guard posts.

Personally... I think I'd take my chances, and focus elsewhere, as long as I had enough buffer that I could lose that planet and then react to that before the incursion of mark V ships got my homeworld.  You can always rebuild your adjacent planet if it falls, after all.  In almost all cases like the one you have, that's what I've done in the past.  Usually trying to attack a core planet too early just winds up alerting the AI homeworld early as well, and gets me into a resource-draining battle that leads to other bad effects.  I've had more than a few losses from this sort of situation and trying to push into there too early.
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Offline Martyn van Buren

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Re: Small galaxy dilemma: Managing an alerted core world
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2011, 04:53:51 am »
Okay, that's sound advice.  I think I'm going to follow it, though I have to say I'm pretty tempted by the piles of capturables on other worlds around the core.  I reckon I go back, alert a few planets I don't care about, and get a few more golems and fabricators, then see if I can't trash the homeworld and this core planet together in a few hours.  Then that'll put me in a good position to seize six fabs, two golems, an ARS and a factory, which should be enough to get the other homeworld reasonably quickly.

One more question --- it seems that both of the advanced factories on this map border the other AI's core.  I don't want to take them before I'm ready to attack, and I wonder if I could ask for your thoughts on Mark III ships without Mark IV vs. unlocking starships?

Offline x4000

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Re: Small galaxy dilemma: Managing an alerted core world
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2011, 10:55:22 am »
Well, remember that there are no hard and fast rules here -- you're the "man on the ground," so to speak, and you're going to have a much better view of things than some commanders back at HQ, right?

The other thing to bear in mind is that you're in a cage match, very literally -- this is precisely what I meant on the wiki.  You have stuff that you need to capture, and the AI is right freaking on top of it with hard planets, core planets, or homeworlds.  So that means you have an exceptional challenge and you might need to make some hard choices that would normally be avoidable on a 60 or 80 planet map.

Case in point: if there's a bunch of stuff that you need that's next to core worlds (not homeworlds), then I don't see that you have much choice but to take that stuff.  Neuter as you can, or just deal with the blowback.  Your idea of spreading the alert around a bit is a good one, but core worlds will get some precedence anyhow, just FYI (not as much as a homeworld, but more than regular planets).

If you're trying to capture advanced factories or fabricators or something that you have to hold a specific planet in order to keep, I'd leave those as long as possible.  It doesn't seem likely you'll be able to hold every planet that is next to a core world, so go for the ones with things like ARSes first, then abandon them when the going gets tough so that you can consolidate on the planets with the factories or fabs.  Same thing thing with golems: get in, rebuild the golem, and get out unless the planet turns out to be easier than you thought.

The end result of that is that these core worlds are going to give you more of a problem at the end of the game -- that sounds unavoidable at this stage.  But the other end result is that you'll actually be equipped to deal with them.  But my rule of thumb would be to alert each core planet as late as you can, whatever that turns out to mean -- if there are other ARSes and things elsewhere in the galaxy, get those first.

I do very much think that you can win the game without mark IV ships, by the way -- I've certainly had to go down that road many times, after my factories got destroyed.  In that case, it's sort of a tossup between the mark IIIs alone versus starships.  Depends on the starship and your playstyle, and honestly the balance has shifted enough lately that I'm not sure of my answer because I haven't been in that situation in a while.  Starships have gotten more useful lately, so my default of gong with the mark IIIs may not be correct anymore.

Frankly, I think that trying to neuter a bunch of core worlds is going to be a bad route to go down, but it's up to you -- whatever makes the most sense in this scenario.  I'd just alert them and then deal with the backwash, occasionally clearing out the wormholes leading to your planets if they are getting a big buildup.  I would strongly advocate leaving a scout on each core world to keep an eye on things, by the way.  But I just figure that if you're trying to neuter so many core worlds, you're going to wind up leaving the homeworlds on alert too long because of the proximity of your fleet, and at the same time you're going to be expending a lot of your own ships and time for something that will just keep regrowing.

If you want to punch a hole through the core planets, the smartest decision might actually turn out to be to take them -- against the general advice.  This, again, I've had to do many times.  Sometimes a core world is just too strong for you to be able to route a bunch of guys through, and so you're going to just have to suck it up and take the whole thing out, then deal with the fully-ready homeworld on the other side. 

Homeworlds don't do border aggression to my recollection, so another (rather extreme) route would be to take all of the core worlds and then consolidate with your massive throbbing economy and all those ARSes and factories and fabs, and then roll the homeworlds that way.  You'll be playing a very long game, and a very risky high-AIP game, but it should be pretty exciting and definitely is winnable. :)  I've never used this strategy, but I know other players who have.

In the end, a lot of this comes down to playstyle.  How are you at defending yourself?  What is your defensive position on this map? 

Do you have a good, long bottleneck between your homeworld and other planets?  If you've got a strong of 3-4 planets that the AI must go through in order between any of their planets and your homeworld, then you have some latitude to stir up the AI and take some backwash.  You can use a boom strategy where you try to drive your economy and your technology and your fabs, etc, sky-high while the AIP also goes abnormally high.  Then crush them while using your bottleneck to provide some insurance against the AI aggression.  Broadly, this is a playstyle I use a lot.

On the flip side, are you really exposed on your own homeworld?  Is there only 1 or 2 planets buffering your homeworld, and/or does the AI have multiple routes to reach your homeworld?  Are you particularly skilled at surgical raids and other offensive cleverness?  In this case maybe you just ought to take what you need, alert the core worlds, but then strike through or past them without letting the AIP get too high or too much time go by.  This will be a faster game, but riskier in its own way.  And I tend to be a boomer, so it doesn't match my own style much, but many other players use this in varying extremes with excellent success (often playing higher difficulties than I do).

In the end, there's no wrong answer as long as you don't let the AI punch through to your homeworld, and so long as you don't put yourself into a stalemate situation where you have a lot of ships but are unable to punch through to the AI's homeworld.  A lot of the changes from 4.0 and on have made stalemate situations vastly less common, though, so my guess is that you'll either lose or win, not get stuck, one way or the other.

Hope that helps. ;)
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Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Small galaxy dilemma: Managing an alerted core world
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2011, 12:09:28 pm »
I'm in a similar position in a 60 star game. I mean, it's much later than 80 minutes in, but i'm nowhere near able to attack the HW (too much mk2, no factories.) I really want to neuter the core planet, but it's a spire hammer. if i so much as poke my head in i get 1200 core ships + 2 spire dreadnoughts pouring out of core raid engines every few minutes. I savescummed it a couple times and all i ever got was complete wipes of my fleet in exchange for a few guard posts and the raid waves bulldozing through my systems. 

The Core carrier aggression is really bloody annoying, and i cant abandon my outer systems because of my energy needs. >_<

Offline x4000

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Re: Small galaxy dilemma: Managing an alerted core world
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2011, 12:16:12 pm »
That's a particularly tough one, yeah -- I wonder if you can transfer your energy needs elsewhere?  It would cost you some AIP, but it sounds like that's the least of your worries at the moment.  Then you could swoop in with some stuff in your own transports and blast the raid engines to smithereens before they get a chance to do too much... maybe.  Then if you lose that planet next to it, you can rebuild at least and then be back where you need to be.

Another way to go would be to use warheads in some fashion -- nuclear or lightning or even EMP -- to try crunch that planet without losing everything.  The advantage being that these might not trigger an alert status for the AI, letting you slip it in under the wire.  Though I guess EMP is out given that these are mark V.  And even a nuke would only be helpful against a minority of stuff there.  So that mostly means lightning, I guess -- get rid of those raid engines that way without losing your fleet in the process, so that your fleet is ready and waiting to hit the wave that comes out of that.

If there are that many core ships coming out, what about area mines on your side of the wormhole?  That plus something like riot starships might be able to stall a lot of them out or take them out entirely.

That's a toughie, for sure, much moreso than the OP.
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Offline Red Spot

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Re: Small galaxy dilemma: Managing an alerted core world
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2011, 02:27:20 pm »
I was a bit foolish, and took a world without scouting past it---and then found out it was next to the core.  So now I have a core world irrevocably on alert, and I'm trying to figure out what to do with it.  I'm playing a 30-planet map, so I haven't got a lot of breathing room.  And as a matter of fact, I'm an hour and twenty minutes in and only have two Mark II unlocks so far, tho I have about 12,000 knowledge saved up.  Anyway, I can see what X meant calling "a cage match with the AI" on the Wiki.

What would people do with this?  First, I guess, I'll go pot-shot the command center on a world with a lot of wormholes to spread out reinforcements, but I'm still nervous about leaving a core world to build up right on my doorstep.  I'm thinking of taking a few unlocks and going in with a ton of neinzul and a golem or two, hopefully killing enough guard posts to prevent a big buildup while leaving the command station so I don't get a homeworld on alert. It seems just feasible, with clever tactics.  But that would still put the homeworld on alert for a while, and even with golems I don't think I have the economy to go straight in there.  Still, I guess it's the right path; 30 planets and Neinzul bonus ships means you're going for a speed game, right?

While I'm on the topic, can I remark on how ridiculously tricked-out a 30-planet map with all expansions can get?  I've just realized I shouldn't have taken this last world, with "only" an ARS, a Zenith Beam fabricator, Mark III and IV ion cannons, a Zenith reserve, and a broken armored golem; next to the other core I could have got an ARS, two fabricators, a cursed golem, and a data center.  Or on the other side of this one four fabricators and a botnet golem.  I reckon I'm going to need a lot of that pretty soon, but it's pretty novel seeing worlds like that.

Sorry if I end up repeating someone, just didn't quite feel reading through the entire topic.

You have an Armored Golem? Have your fleet revolve around it at all times, when I mention "fleet" I mean "fleet with Armored Golem".


You seem to have Golems on » find a Botnet Golem. Create a legion of zombies and set your redirection rally posts to patrol the core(/home)planet.
They take the beating while your "fleet" neuters the planet, start with the CC, asap*, followed by any reinforcing gates.

Cant find a Botnet Golem or cant take it without losing the game » Do you have Spirecraft turned on?
Yes » Penetrators and Martyrs. Use the Martyrs to strip the planet of any buildup. Get your "fleet" on the enemy planet, kill the tachion guards and bring in the Penetrators for a speedy removal of all reinforcing gates, again starting with the CC, asap**.

No » You lose .... just kidding :)
Use transport to draw the AI away as much as possible, depending on how posts are scattered you could now send in the "fleet" for a very short visit, you could just as well skip it for now. When enough AI are drawn away from the gate/posts you send in a team of transports*, add some cannonfodder if you are keen on keeping all of your starships alive. Do "1 post assissantion" raids with the taskforce, the transports can nicelly autorepair and you minimize the number of freed ships with every attack. With a couple of raids you can usually grind the planet down to "fleet"manageble size.

* Get a set of 4-6 transports and load them with caps of bomber, raid, scout-starships, trow in leech-starships or any other ship that can stand its own or you dont mind losing by the cap, even if only in an effort to keep the bomber and raid-starships alive. Use it to take entire AI-planets. Sometimes you need to distract it a bit before it works, which can be the case with heavilly reinfored planets.

** Similair as with *, but now you have Spirecraft turned on. Get some SC-Jumpships, the highest mark possible. The higher the mark the easier this tactic becomes.
Load 1 Jumpship with the most specialised taskforce you can munster for the target at hand. Send it over to the enemy planet(now you could pauze the game), in a split second send the Jumpship to the target while you press the key(set it if you havent already) to unload the transport, it will unload on arrival (you may need to learn to time this a bit), where you make the taskforce kill the post/CC and nothing else, get back into the Jumpship and back home.
When you get the hang of this you can bring a lot of instant hurting to the AI, which they will attack you for, so dont get too overexited once you get the hang of this, it can hurt a lot if you neuter entire alerted core-planets in 1 raid :)

Offline Martyn van Buren

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Re: Small galaxy dilemma: Managing an alerted core world
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2011, 09:53:48 am »
Hi, thanks for the advice!  I haven't had time to get this game much farther, but it seems like it was an easier situation than I realized --- didn't know quite how kickass armored golems are.  Anyway, Neinzul commandos made pretty short work of the OMD, and then I sent in the armored golem and that pretty much leveled the core world in about ten minutes.  The homeworld still isn't on alert, and only has about 150 ships, so I suppose I just need to get some good bombers and a stronger economy and it should be pretty easy pickings.  I'm looking forward to ratcheting up the difficulty so I can try putting some of this to use.   

Offline x4000

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Re: Small galaxy dilemma: Managing an alerted core world
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2011, 10:30:21 am »
Nice!
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