Scape Goat

[soMe_RandoM92]

Hello Fourms, This is soMe_RandoM had create new account because lost old one because email i no longer have access to.
anyway on topic of scape goat, do they, firstly ignore mk level of ship. if they do i can see this ship fill nice role that and be not smart use it in blob strategy as not be optimum way use them. I feel be nice ship for eye raids. With Mk III bombers 25 Bombers and 25 goats now makes new bombers 50 MK III bombers over time when one dies off. this ship could have role of high level raids / sieges . be interesting to test them out back at home (I have scenario ready with mk 1-5 goats with fresh start) if they work how I think they do, then. It be great. However not so good for low cost ships like fighters -_- . but maintaining important and expensive ships.

[RCIX]

I would guess they don't bother with mark level, since having to fork over an extra whatever knowledge just so your bonus ships don't become totally invalidated is kinda weak.

[Hearteater]

What is the difference between Mark I and II of the Scape Goats then?  Besides having a higher ship cap?

[soMe_RandoM92]

Beside being able produce per sec or PPS? Its concern that you could just only have mk 1 and mass PPS them out 15 docks. I loled when they replace each other that was nice. But i did one game got them tier 3. and all i can say is it allows u have larger cap. u need care taken in what ships die first and what dies last. However they do fill their role. and i can see them sustaining specialized fleet for key targets.

[TechSY730]

Do these things use the regenerator golem mechanic to regenerate ships (lose HP based on the HP of the thing being regenerated), or do they die no matter how much or little HP of the thing they regenerate?

If it is the former, then Mk. IIs could be more useful than Mk. Is as a single scape goat could regenerate more stuff before going down.

If it is the latter, then I am nominating Mk. II+ Scape Goats for the next worst unit poll, as there is basically no reason to get the higher marks other than ship cap and them being more likely to survive long enough to regenerate what you want instead of each other.

[soMe_RandoM92]

"If it is the latter," it is latter, they die instead of other unit. best strategy i seen was to. get enclaves mass produce mk 1 on planet. and if u have no equal size force, you should never lose target ship. best used on virals? lol. anyway talked to keith and yeah mk2+ needs consideration.  if they manage keep mechanic how it is same but make it more worth while. it could be abused if higher MK, have tickets that they use up when ships die. but i like this ship i like how its done. lol not suck up on my own idea -_-. but mk 1 fine. its mk2+. i can see how mk2+ would be abused if, had more one charge.

[Hearteater]

It could use Mark to Mark replacement.  So a Mark I only replaces Mark Is, IIs replace IIs.  If there is no equal replacement avaialble, multiple lower Mark units can sacrifice themselves.  So three Mark Is can replace a Mark III.  If there still isn't any valid replacement, a higher Mark can replace a lower Mark ship, and it drops to the difference in Mark level.  So a Mark IV Scape Goat replacing a Mark I Fighter becomes a Mark III Scape Goat.  This would be fairly similar to straight hp replacement.

Another option would be to have Mark level affect the health of the replaced ship, like 40% when replaced by a Mark I, 55% by a Mark II, up to 100% by a Mark V.

[soMe_RandoM92]

1.
"multiple lower Mark units can sacrifice themselves.  So three Mark Is can replace a Mark III. "
2.
"So a Mark IV Scape Goat replacing a Mark I Fighter becomes a Mark III Scape Goat.  This would be fairly similar to straight hp replacement."

1. I dont like that idea, i like how they currently are, how MK 1 can sacrifice it self for any fleet ship any mk.
2. I suggest that to keith. and great idea. and might just work.

[Hearteater]

I didn't really view them as two separate options, but that certainly could work.  So it would basically be: "Scape Goat can sacrifice itself for any fleet ship.  If that fleet ship is of a lower Mark then the Scape Goat, the Scape Goat loses one Mark per Mark of the fleet ship it saves."  The odd part of this is you want Mark Is to save Mark Vs, and Mark Vs to save Mark I.  The optimal sacrifice rules are a little wonky so I'm not sure it would really fly in the end.  Both parts were intended to make it so sacrifice order didn't really matter.  You could save X Marks of ships, where X was the sum of all the mark of your Scape Goats.

[TechSY730]

I would say make them use the standard regeneration logic (HP lost is proportional to the HP of the thing regenerated), but have them take N times the damage per HP regenerated as the other regenerators (for some to be determined N).
This would lead to odd questions, like what if the thing to be regenerated would cause more damage to a scape goat than the remaining HP that any scape goat left on the planet? Does that ship get regenerated or not? If so, which scape goat regenerates it (and thus dies)?
Also, this might not address the higher mark problem. Would the fact that higher Mk. Scape goats have more HP, and thus can regenerate more stuff, worth the higher marks?

[soMe_RandoM]

I Recovered my Old account Thnx to Keith ^^. been long time since i been on fourms and with this account. Tech, it could work same way just that logic behind it should be same. it die instead of other high health units, at cost of its own life and replace lower max hp units with cost own impossible to repair health pool. Guess they be fixed to be worth purchasing sometime before release.

[keith.lamothe]

Changing the mark of a ship isn't really possible; it would have to be removed from the game and replaced with a new ship of the different mark (that's how reclamation and giving work, too).  Not really interested in opening that can of bugs.

Making it use the normal regen logic with health adjusted according to mark difference would be possible, but isn't really what I'm looking for because of the cases where stuff being regen'd has more max health than a goat.  Also, I'm leery of possible exploits if a goat isn't a one-shot thing, due to repairing and whatnot.

The two ideas that seem to work to me are:

1) Bite the bullet on the not-one-shot thing and make it so that:
- an X-mark goat regen'ing a Y-mark ship loses (Y/X)% of its max health.
- goats cannot be repaired
- give goats a slow (say, 60 second or 120 second) self-regen so you don't have to manually scrap damaged ones to maintain cap-effectivenesss

or

2) Make MkII goats have exactly the same stats (including costs) as MkI goats, but with 2x the cap, MkIII have same stats but 3x the cap, etc.
- This seems the cleanest approach to making the higher marks more useful in the key role, though a bit unconventional and on high caps that gets to be an awfullotta goats.  But it seems preferable to the other solutions I've considered.

[Hearteater]

I like option #2.  In keeping with the Mark I's aren't trash, you might want to slightly increase costs as Mark goes up, so there is a small benefit to Mark Is, much like how energy costs on Mark Is are lower.  I'm thinking mainly of the Enclave in the same system building Goats continuously.

Actually, build time would be a another variable to balance around, especially because of Enclaves.  Higher Marks have lower build time to let you stream out goats faster.

[Nodor]

I like option #2.  In keeping with the Mark I's aren't trash, you might want to slightly increase costs as Mark goes up, so there is a small benefit to Mark Is, much like how energy costs on Mark Is are lower.  I'm thinking mainly of the Enclave in the same system building Goats continuously.

Actually, build time would be a another variable to balance around, especially because of Enclaves.  Higher Marks have lower build time to let you stream out goats faster.

This build time idea intrigues me.   Instead of "extra units" make each mark build faster.  Much like the enclave drones, suddenly you have a string of "replacements" for emergency defense... of course this requires a resource pile, but if you have the spare knowledge to unlock mark 3's of a ship that needs others in front to be useful (so you had to unlock something else first).  Fun thought.
 

[keith.lamothe]

The problem with balancing around build time is that there's a limit to how many ships can come out of a queue in one second, and that changes based on your performance profile.  So piling 50 engies onto a spacedock could likely produce just as many bombers as fighters, etc in the same period of time.