Out of your tracks

[Pumpkin]

I'm rediscovering AI War with a (almost) no Minor Faction game.

I'm just out from some hours in a game... I wanted it to be more vanilla. I played a spire campaign earlier and won it a bit too easy : the mothership didn't stand the spirefleet firepower. I realized that I'm starting to feel at ease on 7/7 level, even with moderate AI types. I'm planning some harder types still at 7/7 before going for my first 8/8. But before that I wanted to test myself with a no-superweapon game, something that I do very rarely because I love having tons of toys around me, and all my games end up with [golem/spire/spirecraft/neinzul/starship MkV] fleet alone against exo waves or AI core/home worlds, and fleetships staying at home in case of an AI deepstrike. So just to be sure my comfort at 7/7 doesn't come from superweapon abusing, I started a vanilla game (only marauders, rez fighters and Neinzul Rocketry Corp that I'm unusual to). I was worried of being bored by so few "fun" in the activated options. I decided to add myself one more limit: no research in starships.

Surprisingly (to me, at least), I'm having a really good time with this game. AIP is lower than 50 and I need only 2 more CSG, and some data centers are still hanging around. I used no hacking for now. Nothing to play around also mean nothing to get out of your way: no golems, no Dyson, no need for Zenith PowerGen... I rediscovered Eye's fear* and metal lacking (something that never happen in a Fallen Spire campaign: Hab centers at +1K metal/s and exo's tons of scrap), I hunger for research (because I'm taking fewer planets)... and on another side, I'm rediscovering MkIV fleetships' firepower and strategical fleet mixing, I'm toying with Viral Shredders and fighting Powerslavers...

Anyway, I'm out of my tracks and I'm enjoying it!

So tell me:
- Where do you always spend your science? Are you a fleetship player, a starfleet addict like me, a turret boy like Kahuna, or something else?
- Which Minor Factions do you always enable? Do you hunger for superweapons? How long ago did you attacked an AI homeworld with only fleetships (or barely only)?
- Against which kind of AI are you often playing? Have you a favorite AI type? Did you tried no wave warning + cross planet waves + preemption, for instance?
Now create a new game with the opposite and go for what you never do.
Never toyed with younglings? Fight against a youngster AI and go hack its design backups.
Do you always go for low AIP games with deepstrike and assassination style of play? Follow the Fallen Spire campaign and trigger the alternate victory (the Showdown Devices' way is similar but I prefer the ramping up of the FS campaign).
Which Minor Faction do you never enable? Then make a game with this MF at 10 and nothing else.
Did you try a 10 planets map? a 120 one? Is there a map style you're uncomfortable with? Is there a bonus fleetship you never select? An AI type you avoid with disabledaitypes.txt? So just take it and go.

Really, do it, I'm not joking. Tell me what you never do, do it, and come back telling me how it unfolded. And how fun (or maybe unfun) it was.

* Eye's riddle: how to take down an eye without starships? Answer: use starships.

Here's my "goal" list:
- 30/realistic
- 80/snake (starting middle, no superweapon)
- All MF 10

[Mal]

What a cool post, pumpkin

Concerning playing with fleet ships:

As a newb - I found that I wanted to use just starships all the time for everything due to their immunities to annoying stuff that easily destroyed fleet ships. Then I learned about swallowing ships/posts that made this tactic really unreliable and downright dangerous. So I mixed in transport ships with bombers and missile frigates to target the medium hull, but still found fleet ships unappealing due to how flimsy they were.

As a struggling Kahuna Turret fan- After deciding that starships were great and that I could invest my energy into turrets to defend home, I still found myself struggling very often with losing worlds to mauraders that come in as an exo behind my defenses. Also a stray Neinzul Rocketry Corp would obliterate homestations ( the rockets are immune to missiles and have nice AOEs that killed my defenses in one blow). I tried multiple builds and arrangements of turrets. If I built defenses too close, then the AI waves/exos/CPAs would trash my planet by bumrushing it ( unless I was advanced enough to have grav 3 turrets). This lead me to trying to keep lightning warheads on hand and stockpile, but those would still be nuked by siege plasma or just not be enough if the world was not a homeworld or a front-line fortress world.

As a more experienced veteran- So this lead me to learn the power of fleetships. The tiny ships I had ignored for so long due to their vulnerability to near everything in the game. These little suckers on patrol routes between my worlds solved nearly all the above problems in one fell swoop - often with little to no research at all. I would FRD them and set them to patrol my empire and they would instantly aggro and distract waves, fly quickly ( thanks to command station speed boosts) to mauraders/neinzul warden preservers, and would cheaply/easily take out stray NCR warheads. I felt like such a noob when I implemented this basic strategy. They were there all along!

Concerning how I play the game now and what I feel is important in minor factions:

The one thing I have learned from exploring the game is that the difficulty of an AI mostly determines its total numbers and wave strength. So I have calmed down on trying to climb the difficulty ladder and to start exploring the AI types themselves as they are what really determines the interesting factor in the game ,not the difficulty number so much ( although 7.6 and 8.6 are what I like to play currently). I usually play with all minor factions enabled because I love the chaos of the game.

But my favorite " negative" minor factions to play with have been the dark spire and the neinzul rocketry corps with nomad planets cranked high. The Darkspire because they can totally trash your empire or easily go and make short work of the AI, depending upon the timing. The Hatred star ship that spawns is like a plasma siege version of the hunter-killer in  some ways, without the machine-gun like fire, but the strength and AEO are pretty damn fierce. The Nomad worlds with NCR silos on them really keep you on your toes as they can ambush your economy line of worlds that are protected. So this keeps your defense distribution and planning honest.

My next game is going to be a diff 7.6 against some of the red AI ( probably not the technologist just because I want to fight more interesting opponents rather than just higher marks of ships, aka a numbers game) such as vicious exotic and vorpal.

Concerning maps -

I tend to like to go random on a 40 grid map just for visibility purposes and because the amount of connections keeps your defenses honest but also makes a solid empire both fun and visually appealing looking...but I will take your advice and try something chaotic...like realistic 80 worlds...for a grand epic game.

[Pumpkin]

Concerning maps -

I tend to like to go random on a 40 grid map just for visibility purposes and because the amount of connections keeps your defenses honest but also makes a solid empire both fun and visually appealing looking...but I will take your advice and try something chaotic...like realistic 80 worlds...for a grand epic game.

80/realistic is my "default" setup, but I often go back to 80/simple when I increase chaos by enabling many MF at once.
But "many" for me is maybe far away from your "many"; I barely never pick more than one among Fallen Spire, Hard Golems, Hard BotNet, Spirecrafts, Neinzul roaming/preservation. I often enable low-impact MF like Zenith Traders and Dyson Sphere, but never more than five or six MF.

Hey, I got the idea of thematic MF mix. Did you read my topic?

You know what? I'll try a "all MF 10" game, and you'll try a "NO MF" game. What do you think?

What was I saying, again? Oh, right: map size and type.
So 80/realistic for me, and I like shaped map styles, like concentric and X. I never tries wheel; maybe because roads are always 2 planets wide and never less... I'll give it a try one day, but it won't put me out of my tracks, anyway. I tried a 10 planets map and I won, accordingly to my achievements, but I don't remember; I tried it again recently but canceled after the full scout phase with no planet captured. Maybe I'll go for a 40 or 30 planets map; that would push me out of my tracks without pissing me off (hey, the goal is to have fun, not to push ourselves in truly uncomfortable places).

One day I tried a FS campaign on a 120/snake, starting at an end of the snake, and capturing every single planet along the way (aiming the control-110 achievement). My processor was burnt before I completed the capitol! I'll try a snake game with a more reliable strategy, one day: start at the middle (no homeworld would block my path to the other one) and only go for deepstrike and "stepstone" planet capture.

I never tried grids; I imagine it will be a bit awkward. That would push me outa my tracks. I note it. Which size to you recommend, Mal? You said you're comfortable on grids, don't you?

On the sharing side: do you (Mal and others) ever tried all younglings + mobile space docks (MSD)? Do you never feel a bit ashamed with your MkI neinzul starships siding dozens of friendly roaming enclaves? I know some new players rarely try younglings because their use can be unclear only reading their stats. I swear that the 9 MSD + 3 or more younglings types (not counting firefly and nanoswarm; weasel and vulture aren't good alone too) all MkI-IV can tear through a homeworld on 7/7 like a blazing knife through lukewarm butter. Just pretend MSDs are true neinzul enclaves and you can play "human roaming enclaves" MF!

I'll edit my first post to list my "goals".

[Mal]

I did see your post, just replied to it.

You are definitely getting the short end of the stick with all MF at 10 hahahah! I would say one MF at 10 would be an interesting/challenging twist to the game as long as the AI is beefed up/powered down appropriately( like playing dif 7 if you normally do dif 8 or if you play with a beneficial MF, beef up the AI to make it to where you need your allies), unless you feel you can juggle it well.

If I go with a no MF game, I will probably make sure the AI is at a diff 7.6 but has a harder type combo, that way the game still stays interesting for me.  It would definitely switch up the game flow for me...I would not have to prepare for four exos in a row, more due to the Shark B plot I always have on.

The real out of the comfort zone for me is map size. Big maps always look tedious in my eyes...but...in this game it might encourage me to do more deepstriking, which is something I don't have to do too much of on a grid map it feels like...

So yeah pumpkin, I accept your challenge!

My proposal for my game ( which I will post in AI War:AAR) is:

• two dif 7.6 AI, both are random/random non-technologist harder types
• no MF options on
• no AI plots ( which I normally turn them all on)
• on a max size map, (120 I think), on Realistic, random start locale

, ,  .  Any other counter-proposals for this?

For you, I propose a Clash of the Titans, with you in a supporting role of the nefarious minor factions.

• Two dif 7.6 AI at any random you want, you can reveal AI types if you so please
• Darkspire at 10/10 - the nightmares these things can generate can both aid you indirectly or decimate you with extreme prejudice
• Human Resistance 10/10 - powerful human allies are commanding this war, these ships will spawn frequently and help defend you and lead the offensive against the AI.
• 40 Map Grid, random homeworld start

If you want to change any of the above, just let me know...Can't wait to start playing this

EDIT- concerning mobile docks and neinzul ships, those are awesome...keith has affectionately dubbed that strat the "dock cannon".

[Pumpkin]

I did see your post, just replied to it.

Sorry if I let you think I was talking without taking your post into account. I just wanted to expand on my idea and get a bit carried away by my enthusiasm (as I often do, I realize... Do you think I need a cure about this?) Also, English no being my native language, subtlety about the ways things are said or heard (rather than WHAT is said or heard) are kinda blur for me.

(...) the Shark B plot I always have on.

Yeah, I didn't mentioned that IMO some personal default options are fine. For instance, I always play with the schizophrenic modifier and counter guard post "plot" (I still don't consider it a plot). So if you feel that Shark B is part of the base game as you consider it, it's fine to me. I mean, I'm not a referee, there is no unbreakable rules I and only I state... Am I getting paranoid about the way what I say could be interpreted? Maybe... (Do I need another cure about paranoia on top of overexcitement?)

The real out of the comfort zone for me is map size. Big maps always look tedious in my eyes...but...in this game it might encourage me to do more deepstriking, which is something I don't have to do too much of on a grid map it feels like...

So yeah pumpkin, I accept your challenge!

My proposal for my game ( which I will post in AI War:AAR) is:

• two dif 7.6 AI, both are random/random non-technologist harder types
• no MF options on
• no AI plots ( which I normally turn them all on)
• on a max size map, (120 I think), on Realistic, random start locale

, ,  .  Any other counter-proposals for this?

Are you comfortable on 80? You mentioned 40/grid; if that's your comfort zone, maybe 80/realistic  is enough "outa tracks". You know, 80/realistic is my comfort zone, but 120/realistic often frustrate me. It's up to you.
I suggest you consider enabling shark plot, counter posts, warp relay, schizophrenic  and/or preemption if they're part of your base game. They're minor tweaks (unless preemption, maybe; I didn't toyed much with it). Human Marauders and/or Resistance Fighters at 2 (or somewhere in 1~3) seems fine. The point of the challenge is "no superweapon" (golems, spirecrafts, traders...), and not "boring game". The point is not to put yourself in a TLF game with only Peltians!!!

For you, I propose a Clash of the Titans, with you in a supporting role of the nefarious minor factions.

• Two dif 7.6 AI at any random you want, you can reveal AI types if you so please
• Darkspire at 10/10 - the nightmares these things can generate can both aid you indirectly or decimate you with extreme prejudice
• Human Resistance 10/10 - powerful human allies are commanding this war, these ships will spawn frequently and help defend you and lead the offensive against the AI.
• 40 Map Grid, random homeworld start

If you want to change any of the above, just let me know...Can't wait to start playing this

7.6/7.6
I never went ahead of 7/7. My plan was to test if 7/7 no-superweapon was comfortable before jumping to my first 8/8 no-superweapon. Maybe I'll stay 7/7 for a reasonably !!fun!! game. Or maybe go for a 8/8 Clash of the Titans if I doesn't fell truly uncomfortable with 8/8 vanilla.

Dark Spire 10 VS Human Resistance 10
Dark Spire doens't frighten me... when at 4. I never tried to push it up, so ok, I'll take the "DS vs HRF" challenge.

40/grid
Ok for 40; I was planning an 40~20 map one day, so I'll be enough "outa my tracks" with that.
Grid? Well, that would be awkward for me. I'm familiar on a chaotic network designing its own random clusters, bottlenecks and highways (simple or realistic) or on a shaped snake or concentric where I know a special strategy to adopt. But I've no "special strategy" for grid. Nice! I'll be challenged AND I'll learn something new! Ok for grid.

(...) with you in a supporting role of the nefarious minor factions.

Oh yesss, I want to be nefarious!
Ya wana push it up? Enabling Neinzul Roaming Enclave on 10 could be in the "you're the support, I'm not" style of game: I would allow my friendly enclaves to attack independently and go support them. I remember some 7/7 games with roaming enclaves at 4 where 20 or so friendly enclaves were gathered at my home, sometimes going on a defense duty when waves hit; I enabled "allow independent attacks" and went back to my own plans; about one hour latter, half the galaxy was neutered. I felt like a Fallen Spire campaign where you don't control the spire fleet. (Hey, that's an idea! Protect some neinzul node and they'll fight for you like a Rebelling Colony, but you don't contol them like Dyson's spawn or BotNet's zombies.)

So I add Roaming Enclaves 10 VS Preservation Wardens 10 to my challenge. What do you think?

[Mal]

The point of the challenge is "no superweapon" (golems, spirecrafts, traders...), and not "boring game". The point is not to put yourself in a TLF game with only Peltians!!!

HAHAHAHA! This made me laugh pretty hard.

Also, English no being my native language, subtlety about the ways things are said or heard (rather than WHAT is said or heard) are kinda blur for me.

No worries, you are pretty clear with your meanings...shit, you express yourself better than I do sometimes

(Do I need another cure about paranoia on top of overexcitement?)

We play AI War, enthusiasm and paranoia are both required!

I suggest you consider enabling shark plot, counter posts, warp relay, schizophrenic  and/or preemption if they're part of your base game....Are you comfortable on 80? You mentioned 40/grid; if that's your comfort zone, maybe 80/realistic  is enough "outa tracks". You know, 80/realistic is my comfort zone, but 120/realistic often frustrate me. It's up to you.

Alright! Done and done. I will enable all the AI plots, go on an 80 realistic map, and just won't have any super-weapons or minor factions on.

So I add Roaming Enclaves 10 VS Preservation Wardens 10 to my challenge. What do you think?

Accepted! Game on brother! I will start playing tomorrow( i mean today, I just have not slept yet rofl) and post up my progress or defeat as I go on the AAR board. Looking forward to trading war stories with you.

[Pumpkin]

(Do I need another cure about paranoia on top of overexcitement?)

We play AI War, enthusiasm and paranoia are both required!

That's so true I added it to my signature. "AI War, a game about enthusiasm and paranoia". It could be a meme. Or maybe replace "fleet command" in the title. Or be an expansion name! Or... meds... BRB...

Accepted! Game on brother! I will start playing tomorrow( i mean today, I just have not slept yet rofl) and post up my progress or defeat as I go on the AAR board. Looking forward to trading war stories with you.

I never posted AAR. Maybe I'll do. Did you read RedQueen's "Aggressive Stupidity"? That kind of stuff makes me want to try. I'm a bit busy this week, but I'll have more time to kick AI's butts soon.

[Mal]

Hah! A signature line from me? You do me too much honor pumpkin.

Yeah, no need for you to do an AAR if you are busy, I just wanted to do it because it will be fun. But if you do, I shall surely read it and comment it up! As far as Red.Queen's AAR, I want to read it and have some time today, so I will definitely give it a look.

[chemical_art]

...

• Two dif 7.6 AI at any random you want, you can reveal AI types if you so please
• Darkspire at 10/10 - the nightmares these things can generate can both aid you indirectly or decimate you with extreme prejudice
• Human Resistance 10/10 - powerful human allies are commanding this war, these ships will spawn frequently and help defend you and lead the offensive against the AI.
• 40 Map Grid, random homeworld start

If you want to change any of the above, just let me know...Can't wait to start playing this

EDIT- concerning mobile docks and neinzul ships, those are awesome...keith has affectionately dubbed that strat the "dock cannon".

Ears perked up at the mention of Darkspire.

I have only done one 10/10 game with a relatively mild amount of cheese and that involved using those guys being the "peacekeepers" of the galaxy. The initial rush of them once they are start going crazy will be bad. Really bad. If by a miracle you live, you should find a galaxy clean except for the homeworlds. Good luck! If you are interested I can try to dig up some notes on what I used to mitagate the terror.

[Mal]

Yeah, if you have any helpful hints against a 10/10 Darkspire I would definitely like to know

Hey Pumpkin, here is the start of the AAR. http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,17206.0.html

[Pumpkin]

I have only done one 10/10 game with a relatively mild amount of cheese and that involved using those guys being the "peacekeepers" of the galaxy. The initial rush of them once they are start going crazy will be bad. Really bad. If by a miracle you live, you should find a galaxy clean except for the homeworlds. Good luck! If you are interested I can try to dig up some notes on what I used to mitagate the terror.

Thank you very much, but please don't. The goal of this game is to put the player (myself, for our instance) in a galaxy where his little onslaught isn't the main topic. From the galaxy's point of view, at least. Neinzuls factions are fighting each others and ancient dark artifacts are blindly wreaking the place. In the middle of what Human Resistance Fighters decided to finish with the AI and the player (me) is required to support them.

The big twist is "you are not in charge".

So if you want to explain to Mal how to deal with a 10 Darkspire, please do. But in another thread, to allow me not to be spoiled now. Anyway, do expose your helpful hints, I'll need it sooner or latter 

(I hope I don't let you think I'm sarcastic, because I'm not.)

Hey Pumpkin, here is the start of the AAR. http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,17206.0.html

I'll read it in a minute.

You know what, I had (yet another (stupid)) mod idea that I'm working on 

[chemical_art]

Yeah, if you have any helpful hints against a 10/10 Darkspire I would definitely like to know

Hey Pumpkin, here is the start of the AAR. http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,17206.0.html

Cool. Now remember, I haven't done this since like....a year ago. I'm sure Arcen has thrown some new tricks but the idea is still sound for 8.0 or less.

First of all, those dark spire outpost structures? You are not going to put any ship more then a scout there unless you are a genius and manage to arrange to destroy those tachyon posts without you or the AI losing any ships so you can cloak ships past the system. In other words you cannot let anything more then a scout or two die at any of those posts until you are ready.

Now, Pumpkin just interjected and said he wanted no spoilers, so I will not go into any further detail here. I will feel it is OK to say that *whatever* plan you have, make sure it is ready before any military ships die at those dark spire structures. Just...avoid them. If you want more details Start a thread and I'll respond but it is Pumpkin's thread and I want everyone to have fun.


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I have only done one 10/10 game with a relatively mild amount of cheese and that involved using those guys being the "peacekeepers" of the galaxy. The initial rush of them once they are start going crazy will be bad. Really bad. If by a miracle you live, you should find a galaxy clean except for the homeworlds. Good luck! If you are interested I can try to dig up some notes on what I used to mitagate the terror.

Thank you very much, but please don't. The goal of this game is to put the player (myself, for our instance) in a galaxy where his little onslaught isn't the main topic. From the galaxy's point of view, at least. Neinzuls factions are fighting each others and ancient dark artifacts are blindly wreaking the place. In the middle of what Human Resistance Fighters decided to finish with the AI and the player (me) is required to support them.

The big twist is "you are not in charge".

So if you want to explain to Mal how to deal with a 10 Darkspire, please do. But in another thread, to allow me not to be spoiled now. Anyway, do expose your helpful hints, I'll need it sooner or latter 

(I hope I don't let you think I'm sarcastic, because I'm not.)

As to you Pumpkin, I just  want to clarify what you want. Do you want me to tell you what you should do before you trigger any of those dark spire structures, but not tell you what happens when you do trigger them, or do you mean something else? I will accomadate the best I can, I just want to make sure I do not say too much.

[Pumpkin]

Hey, Chemical Art, don't take me too seriously. I mean, don't walk like on eggs just because I said "no spoils!". And excuse me for having been* a bit authoritarian with my "go spoil away" request.

And now that I re-read my previous post, I understand how the "I'm not sarcastic" could have been eared*. I wanted to prevent you thinking I didn't wanted your "useful tips" and that "useful" was sarcastic. Sorry about that, really.

Then, to clarify. I know how Vengeance Generators behaves at intensity 4 and already won a game with 'em, and what happens when something fart a bit too loud in their neighborhood. And I can easily imagine what kind of self sustained hazard may happen on high intensities. But what I doesn't wanted you to spoil me is the advanced strategy about intensity 10 DS. I've got some idea about that, like carefully avoiding, as you said. But I hope I'll be surprised by it (like "Oh, roaming enclaves were allowed to attack without me and now they've awoken some VG... Oops.") And then your hints would be of a great help to me!

*: is that correct? Ya know, French sometimes has some tortured and twisted ways of telling things, and hell it would be difficult to learn, but... AI War is not only putting my strategical skill to its edge, but my English skill as well! (And as you see with the "sarcastic" stuff, I'm still not totally comfortable.)

EDIT:

I will accomadate the best I can, I just want to make sure I do not say too much.

You're too kind, even after all the mess I've done. Thank you for your patience.

[Mal]

Very cool Chemical, alright, my thread asking for your advice on high is here - http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php?board=31.0

[chemical_art]

Hey, Chemical Art, don't take me too seriously. I mean, don't walk like on eggs just because I said "no spoils!". And excuse me for having been* a bit authoritarian with my "go spoil away" request.

And now that I re-read my previous post, I understand how the "I'm not sarcastic" could have been eared*. I wanted to prevent you thinking I didn't wanted your "useful tips" and that "useful" was sarcastic. Sorry about that, really.

Then, to clarify. I know how Vengeance Generators behaves at intensity 4 and already won a game with 'em, and what happens when something fart a bit too loud in their neighborhood. And I can easily imagine what kind of self sustained hazard may happen on high intensities. But what I doesn't wanted you to spoil me is the advanced strategy about intensity 10 DS. I've got some idea about that, like carefully avoiding, as you said. But I hope I'll be surprised by it (like "Oh, roaming enclaves were allowed to attack without me and now they've awoken some VG... Oops.") And then your hints would be of a great help to me!

*: is that correct? Ya know, French sometimes has some tortured and twisted ways of telling things, and hell it would be difficult to learn, but... AI War is not only putting my strategical skill to its edge, but my English skill as well! (And as you see with the "sarcastic" stuff, I'm still not totally comfortable.)

Pleasure is all mine. In Mal's thread I went into some detail on strategy, so you can read that when things get rough. I will just reiterate you will need to establish a chokepoint and fortify it to no tomorrow, and just hope the ai runs out of ships before you do during the blizzard.