Author Topic: New to the game, what I'm doing wrong?  (Read 6555 times)

Offline Elok

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 21
Re: New to the game, what I'm doing wrong?
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2011, 11:24:48 pm »
Omg, I survived O_o.

I've been a little lucky, the AI completely screwed his chance to wipe me off by splitting his fleet everywhere. Well ok, I don't know why but I reloaded before the CPA warning, killed the planet where I took that screenshot and the CPA was like 2000 ship strong instead.


Anyway. About my huge AI progress. Basically, as my first "big" game, I wanna know the AI strength and aggressiveness based on the AI progress. It's also force me to work on experiencing defensive tactic. So far, the two choke point on the left side of the map hold 1/6 of the ship of my fleet each (about 300-500) and can withstand an attack of 1500 ship. And my main choke point at the right side is build to annihilate the +2000 ships that &?%$/" AI Core Raid Engine send me every 4 minutes.

Also, a question about those AI Co-Processor. I've found 2 yellow and 2 purple. Are those the 4 I got to destroy to drop the AI by 120? I also encountered a sort of new Data center that I could capture to slowly lower the AI over time. Sadly, it got destroyed (I don't know how) but for the next time I'll encounter one, how those work exactly?

One last thing :
1) Don't kill every single warp gate or you'll be sorry.  Leave at least one for incoming waves to use.
Second time I read this, and second time the warning is ambiguous. Can you be more specific? What "will" happen if I do?  I'm getting a little tired of surprise :P
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 12:52:03 am by Elok »

Offline Orelius

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 328
Re: New to the game, what I'm doing wrong?
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2011, 11:49:28 pm »
What happens is the AI warps the waves onto its own planets rather than to yours, building up the AI threat on your border worlds.  Neglect this enough and the gates will burst and likely take you down with the force of several waves compounded.

Offline Elok

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 21
Re: New to the game, what I'm doing wrong?
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2011, 12:03:23 am »
Oh I see, thanks!

And btw, false alarm about the CPA.... : http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/2103/2011071800005.jpg

Oh well, Gotta try to survive that one...


EDIT : Just great, I survived the 4 carrier with 3500 ships on my left flank then he send me another 4 carrier with 3500 ships on the right flank. I survive it too and he send me another 4 carrier with 3500 ships on my left flank? (No CPA warning, I kill the wave and another spawn instantly).
Over 10 000 ship in 5 min, that can't be fleeing ship...you can see yourself from the screenshot that the right flank doesn't even have that many ship before he decided to send me that army...and my left flank cannot survive two wave like this under 5 min.
So, does anyone know what caused this? I would like to know it before I start a new game.


EDIT#2 :
Also, a question about those AI Co-Processor. I've found 2 yellow and 2 purple. Are those the 4 I got to destroy to drop the AI by 120?
Yep, it work, dropped the AI to 1030
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 01:00:42 am by Elok »

Offline Echo35

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,703
  • More turrets! MORE TURRETS!
Re: New to the game, what I'm doing wrong?
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2011, 10:11:55 am »
Well, you do have over 1000 AIP, and that's bound to have a severe effect upon the amount of ships that get sent in to kill you.

In my games I normally don't go anywhere near the AIP that trigglers Mark III waves, and I think I play a rather expansionist style =\.

1,000? Dang, I'm barely over half that by the time I'm working on the core worlds.

Offline Elok

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 21
Re: New to the game, what I'm doing wrong?
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2011, 10:06:03 pm »
I asked x4000 to help me about this, here's what we were talking.

Quote from: Elok on Today at 05:24:51 PM

    If you don't mind, I can copy this discussion on the forum so everyone can read it.  :P

    Sadly, it seem the cause of this huge attack is still unclear. Another member did suggest it was cumulative threat, but why they didn't send the threat in the previous GPA is still puzzling me. I've really done nothing since the last GPA of around 1500 ship. The AI Progress didn't move an inch as I was just sending like 1 or 2 wave of 2000 ship in suicidal mission to kill a AI fortress Mark III protected by a core shield and a few guard post.

    Here's a screenshot of the GPA warning : http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3189/problemrr.jpg

    So, I'm thinking about starting anew. Do you have a link of a page that explain the threat in detail so I can avoid this situation?  :P

    Thanks


Yep, if you can post on the forums that would be great.

In terms of the larger CPA that you posted a screenshot of, looks correct to me.  That's only 4.3k ships, not 10k ships.  BIG CPAs are a part of the game, and they just come periodically.  The reason why it is that large is your excessive AIP.  The pages that talk about Cross Planet Attacks in the wiki are all talking about the big ones.  Those that are coming from CPA Guard Posts, such as the ones you were facing at the home planets, are considerably smaller than a normal CPA.

The reason you then had around 8k ships was that you already had threat of 3.4k or so, which is really bad news when a full CPA gets announced.  Those are the ships that are "stalking" you, which you can also read about on the wiki.

In short: all is well, it's not a bug.  But you can't safely push things quite to the limit the way you apparently were.  If you're about to lose based on regular waves and the little CPAs from the guard posts, then when a full CPA comes you're going to have to resort to nukes most likely to stay alive.  Get as many on one planet as you can, and nuke em.  Then go for the kill as fast as you can!  It's definitely a scenario that you can still win if you're quick on building the nuke, but it's really not a situation that you want to repeat if you can help it. ;)

Thanks for the screenshot, that cleared things up in a way nothing else would have.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: New to the game, what I'm doing wrong?
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2011, 10:50:58 pm »
Thx for the answer, I also posted your answer in the thread I created in the forum.

Still, there's something the screenshot isn't telling. The Thread at the top-right is the incoming wave of the AI Core Raid Engine (From what I've read if I mouse "mouse-over" the "Threat" in the HUD). And if you want, I can send you my game and you'll indeed see that after the countdown, the Purple AI (left side) indeed send a "carrier only" wave of about 4500 ship, but right after I killed it (I'm not sure if killing the wave is what triggered it, but it's how it happened) the yellow AI (right side) send me another "carrier only" wave of around 4000 ship and again, after I killed it the Purple AI send another "carrier only" wave of around 4000 ship. For a total of more then 10 000 ship :P.

Here's the link of my save in the case you would like to see it yourself : http://www.mediafire.com/?v09zhr2cqks8088

Moving this out of PM...

I think what is being misunderstood here is what "threat" means.  Threat is ships that are already in the galaxy, from past waves or ships retreating, etc.  Having a threat of 3.4k has nothing to do with the current CPA, it's just existing ships that you've failed to kill in prior encounters (or which have yet to come forth and engage you because they are stalking you from nearby).

With CPAs or waves that have not yet arrived, that's the "wave" countdown.  Even though the CPA ships are technically in the galaxy, they show up under wave instead of under threat because which ships will become threat doesn't get determined until the countdown timer hits 0.

In terms of the carriers, that's just the AI moving some of its ships into those because it has excessive extra ships on one planet and that would become a CPU burden otherwise.  Most likely it's hitting the point of several thousand ships about to swarm into your planet at once, so it puts them into carriers to save your CPU and keep the game speed up while it trashes you. ;)

In terms of those carriers that keep hitting you for more than 10k total, that could be any number of things but it doesn't strike me as odd.  For one thing, about 8k of those are already accounted for, so it's just a difference of maybe 2k max.  There are various mechanisms that lead to carriers getting created and coming after you, most to do with too many reinforcements stacking up on AI planets that already have a barracks.  Given that most carriers include 1k ships, that's only about two planets at once happening to trigger.


In general, this particular scenario is in a floodwater sort of state: you've really, really, really angered the AI, beyond what most players can survive, but you haven't died yet and so the AI is still hammering you like crazy.  Given that somehow you're still alive, I'd say you might have a good chance to actually beat them if you can survive this rough period.  Those large CPAs only happen every 3-5 hours, and that was a huge amount of your threat.  Then there's the other mass of threat (3.5k) that it sounds like you killed.  And then the carriers that would have launched at you anyhow, based on their planets filling up, and now those guys are dead. 

So it's not like the AI will keep doing this indefinitely on this scale, but you caught a really bad confluence of events there; if you survived, then very good job, that's impressive. :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Elok

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 21
Re: New to the game, what I'm doing wrong?
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2011, 12:21:41 am »
Oh I see, so the use of carrier wasn't a change of tactic triggered from something I did, but instead it mean the Core world really did stack a ton of ships.

Also, the "huge" CPA (different from "regular" CPA) also explain why the AI send me that many ship, and why I didn't know the reason.

My worst mistake in this game was killing the command center that "switched ON" the AI Core Raid Engine, forcing me to concentrate on the defensive again attack the Yellow AI (6.0) while the Purple AI (7.0) was stacking ships in all of the remaining world. Instead of pressing the Yellow AI, I should have attacked the remaining world until all that remain was their Core world and it's border.

I guess I'll just abandon this game. Too bad, it was getting really fun. One little mistake and the AI wiped out one of my choke point and destroy me. Still, I'm pretty proud of what I've accomplished.

Just started a new game in a "X" universe. Gonna start neutralizing planet instead of just destroying everything.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: New to the game, what I'm doing wrong?
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2011, 09:23:33 am »
Yeah, getting too near the AI home planets without being prepared for them can be a game-ender in various ways.  It's something you can recover from, but it's kind of like pulling your army up right outside Sauron's Tower and then sitting there for hours.  That sort of thing really should cost the game, in my opinion.

Granted, you got caught in an absolutely unluckiest-possible-scenario because you hadn't killed the core shield generators yet AND there happened to be a core CPA guard post on that planet.  So that meant you were getting endlessly hammered with no way to stop the hammering aside from going all over the galaxy to get the CSGs.  That's doable... maybe sometimes... but man would that be tough.  There's not too many "stalemate" situations in the game anymore, but most of them involve ticking off the AI homeworlds before you're ready to deal with them.

In other news, of course, the fact that you survived at all for so long as you did is nothing short of amazing.  You've got some real Alamo going on there. ;)  We definitely salute you. :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Elok

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 21
Re: New to the game, what I'm doing wrong?
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2011, 10:36:10 am »
Just wondering (I didn't find it in the wiki), is there's a sort of list somewhere of all the station of the game and what they are doing?

Oh yeah, and about neutering planet, is it worth it to kill the guard post that got ton of HP?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 10:55:21 am by Elok »

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: New to the game, what I'm doing wrong?
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2011, 10:56:37 am »
Sure, you can get that in-game by just hitting F1.  Or you can export it as an excel xml file from the game directly, by hitting F3, then Ctrl+Shift+F8 on the main menu.

Generally speaking, though, I don't think it's something you need to try to study -- this isn't a game about memorization, and there are literally somewhere between 400 and 600 different types of ships so that would be crazy to try to remember.  Instead, if you just put a scout on a planet, then look at the planetary summary sidebar, then you can see what is relevant for THAT planet at that time.

But if you're not on the planet currently, and all you have are the icons on the galaxy map planetary summary, then using the F1 menu would be generally the easiest way to see what the big structures do.  Things like guard posts have versions of themselves at every mark level except 0, so that makes them particularly easy to find.

Hope that helps!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: New to the game, what I'm doing wrong?
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2011, 01:11:39 pm »
Oh yeah, and about neutering planet, is it worth it to kill the guard post that got ton of HP?
The wormhole GP is pretty much never worth killing.  Yes they get reinforcements, so that's a little bad from a neutering standpoint, but otherwise just ignore them.  The only reason they even shoot at all is because apparently they used to cause problems with some AI behaviour when they didn't.  So they do no damage basically.  I think their weapon type might be "nerf".

Offline Commiesalami

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
Re: New to the game, what I'm doing wrong?
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2011, 01:38:02 am »
Oh yeah, and about neutering planet, is it worth it to kill the guard post that got ton of HP?

The only use to killing those is to prevent the AI from building up reinforcements on top of the wormholes themselves.  So say if your neutering an AI planet and you will be passing troops through it at semi-regular intervals, normally passing ships through the system would cause the wormhole guards to goto threat.  If you remove the guard posts then your ships can pass through without generating threat (Assuming that your path to other wormhole doesn't pass near another guard post or the command station)

I typically kill the wormhole guard posts on a world right next the the AI home world to let my transports and golems get into the fight without getting hurt (Or to prevent a gravity guardian from spawning and leaving my forces in a killing zone.)

Offline Zair

  • Jr. Member Mark II
  • **
  • Posts: 79
  • Tooth Spawner Mk IV
Re: New to the game, what I'm doing wrong?
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2011, 02:18:12 am »
To avoid wave ships retreating and turning into large threat stacks. I've found that leaving a warp gate up next to a planet with a protected Black Hole Machine will do the trick nicely.

They can check out any time they like, but they can never leave.