New Player - Warp Raid and CPA logic?

[vaseline]

I am gonna keep this simple (for now). I have done loads of research into Warp Raids, and incidentally CPA's, both of which I understand in theory when I read the wiki but in practice it makes no sense because of situations like the one below:

As you can see this game has been going on for a while - it's my first one and I am taking it very slow to figure everything out. 60 planet with two lvl5 AI's set to random easier (epic slower). Only details I can remember now. The main thing I don't get is why the AI has NEVER once warp raided anything from Janomu (mkIV 600units) into Yidre - its been getting reinforcements the whole time and thats it.

The majority of warp raids (60/70%) have come from Raockgen into Ifiasi  but always in tiny numbers - started at 3 usually about 11 now! seems super low and completely non-threatening. And why nearly always from here - its like it doesn't want to test my defenses elsewhere or failed realised it has no chance via this route! Is that just because the AI is low?

Curiously, Fensuoju sits at 1220! (is this because its bordered by two hostile planets?) Similarly it has has not initiated any warp raids.

Finally, there have only been two CPA's? maybe 3? but each one ended up being so uneventful. I didn't quite know where they were coming from at the time but even catching me somewhat off guard (at the time I was more exposed) I didn't have much hassle. Again I was surprised though to get no attention from the mkIV Janomu which had been bordering my captured Yidre since the beginning. I fortified heavily there when the warning arrived but what a waste of time that was.

How do other people read their maps to figure out CPA waves and Warp Raids? What's the logic at work in this particular scenario?

Thank you in advance:)

[vaseline]

20 views and no replies:( I would really appreciate the help here.  I feel like if I don't understand this aspect of the game its like i'm playing without knowing the rules - not very fun.

[Mánagarmr]

Well, if you upload the save here we can more easily dissect the problem. What I can say just on an offhand like this is that the waves launched by the AIs are really puny on anything below difficulty 7, so the actual "warp raids" as you call them (waves is more common around here) are going to be very weak.

The size of the defending fleets on planets is quite likely due to "Alert". Everytime you have a fleet adjacent to an enemy planet, or indeed destroy the command center, or colonize a planet next to an AI planet, that planet is going to be put into "Alert", which means that the AI will spend more of its reinforment points on that planet. Alerting a planet is usually a bad idea, as that planet will rapidly build up a strong defensive force.

Sometimes, of course, it's unavoidable, but in general you want to avoid alerting nearby AI planets.

[vaseline]

Well, if you upload the save here we can more easily dissect the problem. What I can say just on an offhand like this is that the waves launched by the AIs are really puny on anything below difficulty 7, so the actual "warp raids" as you call them (waves is more common around here) are going to be very weak.

I figured this would be the reason for the low numbers, rather my confusion was based on why it was being so selective about its wave targets and never testing others spots.

The size of the defending fleets on planets is quite likely due to "Alert". Everytime you have a fleet adjacent to an enemy planet, or indeed destroy the command center, or colonize a planet next to an AI planet, that planet is going to be put into "Alert", which means that the AI will spend more of its reinforment points on that planet. Alerting a planet is usually a bad idea, as that planet will rapidly build up a strong defensive force.

Sometimes, of course, it's unavoidable, but in general you want to avoid alerting nearby AI planets.

I can grasp this, no problem, and as you say it is inevitable that the AI will always be on Alert and reinforcing if I am next to it (the trick I guess is being tactical about your position and confusing the AI into reinforcing the "wrong" planets), but again this doesn't make sense of the AI's decision to never even try sending waves from its strongest planets bordering my own which is what my OP was more about.

How would I go about providing you with a saved game file?

thanks

[x4000]

You can upload files by expanding the "Additional options" section under each post, and then upload it.  If that doesn't work (ie, if your save is too large), you can use something like filedropper.com and then just post a link here.

One question: what version of the game are you playing on?  The latest official, or the latest beta?  The latest beta fixes a number of issues, rebalances a ton of stuff, and in general makes the waves a bit more sizable based on AI Progress.  But, it is still beta, so some stuff is still inwork and it's not as bug-free as an official version.  So pick your poison. But if you do run into any issues in a beta (or the official for that matter), you can always report it in mantis (see my sig) and we'll take care of it as soon as we can, in the queue of other issues reported.

Okay, now, a few notes on your specific situation above, though I am speaking blind:

1. I'd suggest trying the Hostile Wormholes filter in the galaxy map to see which of your planets actually have wormholes that can launch waves against them.  It may be that Yidre does not have a warp gate active there (if you gate-raided, etc).

2. In general, the wave targets are heavily randomized, which can lead to clustering just as well as an even dispersion.  Most people read "random" as "evenly distributed," but that's actually a logical fallacy.  1-1-1-1-1-3-1 is a perfectly valid set of random numbers pulled from the integers 1-10, for instance, but to many people it "feels wrong" and doesn't seem random.  So even if Yidre does have a hostile wormhole, you may just be running into statistical clustering.  In which case, if you play long enough, Yidre probably would be attacked (and possibly might start being the main point of attack, you never know).

3. Regarding CPAs, you really won't be able to predict them very well on the map.  Bear in mind that their mark level is equal to that of the AI's overall wave mark level, which from your screenshot is II.  That means that you'd only see mark II ships and down as part of a CPA; any higher-mark ships from a mark IV planet would be based on the "border aggression" mechanic that sends them trickling in.

4. Also regarding CPAs, a number of fixes and tweaks have gone into those with the latest betas, to make them more interesting. There are still a few more fixes needed, though; every time the game evolves, some of the mechanics get a bit left behind until we hear from players on what they'd like to see changed with the mechanic as befits the new mechanics.  Given how much changed in the 4.0 version of the game, that process has been taking longer than usual, but I'm really pleased with how it's coming.

5. Oh, one note on waves: bear in mind that those don't involve ships from within the galaxy at all.  The AI is warping those in from outside the galaxy, and they just slingshot through the AI planet into yours.  So the strength or weakness of a given AI planet has absolutely no effect on a wave, they simply are using the warpgate to slingshot their forces through to your planet (as you might use the gravity well of a moon to slingshot your spacecraft in a different direction).  This may help clear that up: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_High_Level_AI_Planets#What_Is_The_Risk_Of_Not_Destroying_A_High-Level_AI_Planet_Next_To_My_Home_Planet.3F

Hope that helps!

[vaseline]

I was hoping I might get your particular attention. You appear very generous with your advice in the forums and obviously since you made the game you'll be on the money:)

So, now I have your attention:   I am playing latest official (no expansions), but i don't really have enough experience with the game to know whether my "issues" are potential bugs. As you can probably tell I'm still struggling with the mechanics of play - wouldnt even know if it was a bug or not at this stage.

1)

It may be that Yidre does not have a warp gate active there (if you gate-raided, etc).

Yidre is my planet, why would i need a warp gate?

Strangely enough I had just used the Hostile Wormhole filter for the first time and noticed Yidre has nothing written about wormholes on it. So any system without a red Wm tag is safe from waves? How does that filter work exactly?

2) The randomisation method is something i read about in a wiki or thread but I now can't find the link, however I can remember an explaination you provided stating that warp raids were randomly selected amongst hostile/Alerted planets - confirmed in your post above. Does this mean that once a planet has been randomly selected it will permanently release waves intermittently?

And finally, these were two foum topics that confused me a little:
http://arcengames.com/communitywiki/index.php?title=General_Strategy_In_AI_War:_Fleet_Command

The AIs will send ships to attack you regularly, so it's important to ensure that you have appropriate defenses in place.

AI ships can come through wormholes, in ascending strength, as part of;
Special Forces Patrols
Warp Gate Waves
Cross-Planet Attacks

OK so, Here they are called Warp Gate Waves - are these the same things as Warp Raids or different?

leading me onto:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,2265.0.html

In general, adjacency to huge planets does not matter, because AI ships are not allowed to attack unless you set them free or there is a cross-planet attack.

There are three main rulesets for AI Ships:
- Free (can do anything, and attack you whenever)
- Guard (can do anything within their guard radius, but that is it)
- Special Forces (move on patrol between planets, become Free when they see you).

How do ships become free?
- When ships come in via a wave, they are Free from the start.

Free because these are the ships being warped from outside the galaxy via the warp gates?

And under what exact circumstances can ships come in via a wave (whatever we are calling them - Warp Raids? or Warp Gate Waves?)   (and yes I guess CPA's and the like, but thats less the issue - i understand those better)

I'm sorry to appear so pedantic over what are perhaps glaring obvious rules, but I have read the entire wiki numerous times and been through the forums but the specific questions I have just don't seem to have an answer.

Thank you for all the help so far. I am already loving the game but if I were just able to comprehend this final aspect it would make it SOO much better:)

Keep up the good work.

[x4000]

Wow, that's a lot of text.  A few brief notes:

Yidre is my planet, why would i need a warp gate?

I meant the AI planet bordering it.

OK so, Here they are called Warp Gate Waves - are these the same things as Warp Raids or different?

People use a variety of various names for things, but in this case the official name is Waves, or Warp Gate Waves.  The raids were a term that you used, so I used it back.

How do ships become free?
- When ships come in via a wave, they are Free from the start.

Free because these are the ships being warped from outside the galaxy via the warp gates?

...yes.  I'm not sure I understand the question.  They are starting free because they are spawned as part of a wave, and that's how it works with waves.  The only ships that are not free are guarding-type ships (which is most ships, most of the time), and offensive-type waves obviously aren't guards.

And under what exact circumstances can ships come in via a wave (whatever we are calling them - Warp Raids? or Warp Gate Waves?)

The AI launches waves periodically, and ships come in via them.  It's just a timer, the waves come every so often.  The AI doesn't use an economy at all, if that's what you're asking.  It plays Risk while you play AI War, in essence -- when you think about reinforcements that's particularly apt, but also applies here.

(and yes I guess CPA's and the like, but thats less the issue - i understand those better)

Also just timers, separate ones.  But heavily randomized ones.

Thank you for all the help so far. I am already loving the game but if I were just able to comprehend this final aspect it would make it SOO much better:)

Sure thing.

[vaseline]

How do ships become free?
- When ships come in via a wave, they are Free from the start.

This is something you wrote in a previous post or on a wiki page so I thought it was appropriate to quote it here but I didn't fully understand the Free from the start bit.

It was my deduction that your use of Free (in the context of a wave) was to imply these ships could only be free since they had been warped from outside the galaxy, as opposed to being comprised of say reinforcements.

...yes.  I'm not sure I understand the question.  They are starting free because they are spawned as part of a wave, and that's how it works with waves.  The only ships that are not free are guarding-type ships (which is most ships, most of the time), and offensive-type waves obviously aren't guards.

again, spawned from outside the galaxy. does that make more sense now?


Yeh that was a big old rant, but thank you ever so much for replying. Much appreciated.

[x4000]

Ok -- sounds like you are all cleared up now?  I'm not sure if there are new questions in there.  Anyway, glad I could help.

[Mithror]

Sorry to barge in like this, but I do have a similar question regarding freed ships.

In one of my games I have neutered a (Mk IV) planet, leaving only the OCS (so not even the wormhole guard posts). Where are the ships coming from that are assembling at the wormhole to my territory (adding to the Threat)? Specifically, which mechanic allows them to be there? I know it's not a CPA. This is at ~100 AIP btw.

[x4000]

That's general reinforcements happening: those ships likely aren't free at all, but are guarding the wormhole guard posts.  When a reinforcement happens at the planet, all guard posts at the planet get reinforced with ships.

[Mánagarmr]

Sorry to barge in like this, but I do have a similar question regarding freed ships.

In one of my games I have neutered a (Mk IV) planet, leaving only the OCS (so not even the wormhole guard posts). Where are the ships coming from that are assembling at the wormhole to my territory (adding to the Threat)? Specifically, which mechanic allows them to be there? I know it's not a CPA. This is at ~100 AIP btw.

The Orbital Command Station still allows for reinforcements, but they would generally just sit on the OCS and not move. However, if they are many enough, they get "freed" and will go through any nearby wormholes to attack (Border Aggression).

It could also be so called Border Aggression from further off worlds that travel through the galaxy and just happen to end up on this Mk IV to attack you, since it's the closest route. Neutering a planet will prevent it from reinforcing heavily and will keep its defending numbers down, but it will not prevent other planets ships to travel through it.

Never assume a wormhole is safe.

[Mithror]

But there are no wormhole guard posts at that wormhole. I'm sure because it took ages to clear them all

Sorry to barge in like this, but I do have a similar question regarding freed ships.

In one of my games I have neutered a (Mk IV) planet, leaving only the OCS (so not even the wormhole guard posts). Where are the ships coming from that are assembling at the wormhole to my territory (adding to the Threat)? Specifically, which mechanic allows them to be there? I know it's not a CPA. This is at ~100 AIP btw.

The Orbital Command Station still allows for reinforcements, but they would generally just sit on the OCS and not move. However, if they are many enough, they get "freed" and will go through any nearby wormholes to attack (Border Aggression).

It could also be so called Border Aggression from further off worlds that travel through the galaxy and just happen to end up on this Mk IV to attack you, since it's the closest route. Neutering a planet will prevent it from reinforcing heavily and will keep its defending numbers down, but it will not prevent other planets ships to travel through it.

Never assume a wormhole is safe.

If I clear EVERYTHING except the OCS, there can never be border aggression on that planet right? Source: http://www.arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Border_Aggression#Defending_Against_Border_Aggression From other planets, maybe, but I'm only at ~100AIP with maybe 2 hours or so played, so it seems unlikely.

Also I distinctly have seen the ships come from another wormhole. One of the neighbouring enemy wormholes.

[Mánagarmr]

That's general reinforcements happening: those ships likely aren't free at all, but are guarding the wormhole guard posts.  When a reinforcement happens at the planet, all guard posts at the planet get reinforced with ships.

He specifically stated he destroyed the WH guardposts. But your post still applies though, only without the WH GPs. They're likely sitting on the wormhole waiting for large enough numbers to punch through.

[x4000]

Wow, that's crazy -- generally those are not meant to be cleared!  But, in that case, sounds like it's border aggression, like Moonshine Fox said.

OR -- it's possible that some AI ships retreated at one point, and then gathered in that planet.  If AI ships are overmatched on one of your planets, they will retreat out into the AI planets, and then come back at you from some various direction.  If there is a way for them to get to this planet after having retreated, then they could be stalking you based on waiting to come back in.

Come to that, they could actually have retreated to that planet, even if it was a dead end, and are thus stalking you from there because they had nowhere else to go once they reached that planet!