Need help dealing with spire railclusters

[Chris_Stalis]

Hey all. I'm looking around the site trying to find some advice on how to deal with the current nature of the spire railclusters. I'm trying desperately to manage them in my games, but I am perpetually overwhelmed. They fight more like starships, and the MkIIIs are consistently overwhelming my defenses with only 30 of them, while the AI is deploying 50+ MkIs and DESTROYING my fleets with the shotgun fire. Only the ships with light, ultra-light or swarmer armor classes seem to have the firerate to punch through the 3m+ health, and my fleets are unable to make any headway the moment the AI deploys its special forces.  And no, it's not the overwhelming number of OTHER ships that bothers me in the special forces, it's that the AI has 5x to 10x the ship cap deployed in a single fight.

I know I'm not terribly skilled at this game. I'm not holding any illusions that I am. But this ship is single handedly ruining the experience for me. I'm about ready to stop playing AI war entirely because I simply cannot figure out how to account for it.

I'd either like some strategic help countering the AI's sucker punch or information on how to delete the unit entirely from the game. Cheats are also fine in that respect. I just want to feel like I have some chance at winning again.

Thanks.

[Lancefighter]

Their hull type is polycrystal - they *should* die to bombers?

Consider siege starships as well.

Or.. sniper turrets? I think those have polycrystal bonus, I am not sure.

[Mánagarmr]

Does bombers have bonus against polycrystal? I didn't know they were their own counter.

If you are going against polycrystal, you should probably bring fighters.

[zoutzakje]

I have no experience yet with the unit in question, but I can give some general advice. If you have Spirecraft enabled, a single Xampite martyr should do the trick.
Bombers are made of polycrystal, but they don't counter it. You're confused with the Space Tank I think. If you're up against polycrystal hull types, use fighters instead. Sniper, Missile and Laser turrets will also work. Build them in mass if these spire railclusters are your main threat.
If there is a particular wormhole where they come from a lot, build Heavy Beam Cannons (turrets) in range of it. They work against any fleet ship/regular starship.

Don't be worried about not knowing how to deal with a certain unit. There is a counter for everything. Feel free to ask us for any advice if you might need it =)
oh and welcome to the forums btw ^^

[Lancefighter]

Does bombers have bonus against polycrystal? I didn't know they were their own counter.

If you are going against polycrystal, you should probably bring fighters.

Wait. bombers are.. ok. uh. Must be thinking of zelec bombers.

Then railclusters counter fighters, which counter railclusters. Stick with the siege things then.

[TechSY730]

The triangle unit that has a bonus against polycrystal is the standard fighter.

Now, the standard fighter has a light armor hull type, which spire railclusters have a bonus against.

This means they both have bonuses against each other, giving a very strange dynamic when they face off against each other.


There is some discussion about whether spire railclusters are OP even for their low cap...


BTW, your observation that railclusters are more like starships is a good one. In fact, it would be nice if all of the fleet ships with cap <=5 could be refactored to use the bonus starship logic (which would imply fiddling with base stats some to make them like starships cap-stat wise (higher HP, lower DPS, high build time, that sort of thing). This would help minimize the risk of the AI getting a near uncounterable number of these (which could really happen with any ship type, but due to complex math reasons (rounding error in reinforcement calculation, "critical mass" of low cap ships, etc), it is much more likely to happen with low cap ships than other ship types), as the AIs have much more severe limitations on starship seeding logic than fleet ships.

[Lancefighter]

I honestly feel like the AI uses starships far too little..

[TechSY730]

I honestly feel like the AI uses starships far too little..

Agreed. It would be nice if some of the max starship count restrictions in its various offense and defense things were loosened some.

[Chris_Stalis]

If there is a particular wormhole where they come from a lot, build Heavy Beam Cannons (turrets) in range of it. They work against any fleet ship/regular starship.

Beam turrets are an excellent counter against a low number, but the problem is they are essentially a perpetual health drain on my other turrets. I know mkIIIs are supposed to have significant bonuses against my defenses, but consider the following defensive array:

20x Sniper Turrets
20x MkI Basic Turrets, MLRs Turrets, Missile Turrets, Laser Turrets
20x MkII of all of the above
1 MkI & 1 MkII Fortresses
2x Mini Fortresses

Defending on planet with

2x FF-MkII & 1 x FF-MkI gaurding Military Command

My posture is set as defensive on the wormhole leading back to my other bases. (This isn't my only defensive line, but it's the hard node I use to severly breaker exo-galactic waves).  Without additional fleet support, this defensive line crumbles under attack from 30 MkIII Spire railclusters. Now, the logical response is "Why are you fending off 30 MkIIIs with only that? Of COURSE MkIs can't take 'em down!" Problem is, these are being used to naturally reinforce on alert MkIII & MkIV planets. They're not being sent in alone, but as a result of border agression. Which means they also have a lot of extra support. My Fortresses are wasted metal and crystal because they can't touch polycrystal ships. I can send in fighters, but on a mark for mark basis, these ships destroy the fighters and space planes that are designed to counter them. Oh... and the AI is still on tech level 1, because I'm only a few hours into this game.

*sighs* I'm venting a bit right now. It's just... frustrating that I have to pull my entire fleet in to defeat a SINGLE ship type that's assaulting me. Any other ship type doesn't have the ability to simultainously hit everything in my defensive line at once and start chewing with wild abandon. It's just... really very frustrating. I'm kinda surprised I'm the only one experiencing this problem.

[Mánagarmr]

Feel free to vent. This game is in constant flux, and sometimes there are things that are genuinely broken. Other times, some other player comes up with a brilliant idea you'd never thought of yourself.

[keith.lamothe]

I let them be the counter to their triangle counter mainly as a "why not?".  I could just switch them to Composite so the missile frigate becomes its counter (the natural would be Heavy, but I don't want to listen to more fussing about bomber vs everything ).

But in this situation I'm not sure that would really do it.  It sounds like the thing's simply overpowered.

[Lancefighter]

I dunno - are there not other tools' in the payers arsenal (starships, mainly) that can deal with railclusters?

[keith.lamothe]

I dunno - are there not other tools' in the payers arsenal (starships, mainly) that can deal with railclusters?

Probably.  I don't mean so overpowered that they can't be dealt with at all (there's always warheads, after all), just that the numbers are suspect since (iirc) they still have the original numbers I assigned them from the dps guidelines when I created them.  The case in this thread is the worst I've heard about them, but it's not the only feedback I've received that they're OP (in both human and AI hands).

[Lancefighter]

I cant seem to figure out what the game calls spire railclusters (for the warp in clowns cheat), apparently nothing from bonusspirerailcluster to railcluster work. help?

[TechSY730]

Ouch, border aggression can be nasty, especially when it is higher mark planets doing the border aggression freeing.

The key is to make sure that you have enough of a force to deal with it by the time it starts, and try not to keep high mark planets alerted too long.
But if you do trigger it, sadly I am afraid I can't offer you much advice, as I don't usually face large amounts of border aggression before I have much to my name.

And yes, I would agree that spire railclusters are somewhat OP right now. At least a cap of standard fighters should have about 50% chance of winning an equivlanent mark cap of sprie railclusters.

However, as noted, your situation is somewhat skewed as you are facing Mk. IIIs relatively early in the game.


Though that brings up one very good question, why are you facing border aggression at only a few hours into the game? It usually take much longer than that for things to build up enough (not just alerted planets, but other non-alerted planets the AI is allow to "overflow" into when the alerted planets get near full) for border aggression to start happening, even if you leave a single planet alerted for that entire time since game start.
(Note, I am not blaming you, I am saying something seems odd in the AI logic in this case)



EDIT:

I dunno - are there not other tools' in the payers arsenal (starships, mainly) that can deal with railclusters?

Probably.  I don't mean so overpowered that they can't be dealt with at all (there's always warheads, after all), just that the numbers are suspect since (iirc) they still have the original numbers I assigned them from the dps guidelines when I created them.  The case in this thread is the worst I've heard about them, but it's not the only feedback I've received that they're OP (in both human and AI hands).

IMO, they are not hideously OP, or even crazy OP, but they are OP enough such that if you face a wave of them or try to tackle a planet with reinforcement preferences with railclusters as one of them, it can be rather aggravating.