Author Topic: Metal & Crystal  (Read 7910 times)

Offline I-KP

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Re: Metal & Crystal
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2010, 06:54:46 am »
Maybe it's just my style of play then (high AI, 80+ worlds).  Metal & Crystal become irrelevant after the fourth/fifth world taken in most games (but almost always irrelevant after the eighth world) and only Energy remains a consideration going forward.  (Most of the funky capturable stuff is energy demanding too so there isn't much to find out there that will ever tax metal and crystal reserves.)  I'm a 'minimum noise' kind of player which means a typical AIP of not more than 200 before the first AI falls.  Not a fan of suicide runs either so unit churn is pretty low.  (Bizarrely, my style of play would probably benefit the most from a Veterancy mechanic, even tho I do still think Veterancy is not necessary for AI War.)  My score is always very low however because I don't tent to need to rebuild as much as some.  (Incidentally, I'm in favour of the suggested score re-analysis because it does currently reward suicide game play rather than anything else.)

If Mercs didn't need Energy (perhaps they sort out their own energy requirements) I would have something to spend my huge reserves on.  Not sure if that has a balance/exploit implication tho.
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Offline quickstix

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Re: Metal & Crystal
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2010, 07:51:54 am »
I completely forgot about Mercenary Docks! I got all excited when they were introduced as well, but I just plain forgot about them! :-[

That being said, I need to increase my AI progress rate (1/30) because my lack of agression sees my games go on, and on, and on... Not that it's a bad thing, but it is nice to finish a game every now and then. It's also the reason I end up with plenty of resources, although I do stay mindful of energy throughout the entirety of the piece.

Offline x4000

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Re: Metal & Crystal
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2010, 10:40:08 am »
(Most of the funky capturable stuff is energy demanding too so there isn't much to find out there that will ever tax metal and crystal reserves.)

I don't quite understand the logic here -- energy = metal + crystal.  If you want to power a golem, for instance, you need a ton of energy, which also means a ton of extra metal and crystal.  Assuming that my docks are always cranking out ships at a constant rate (given that my ships are being spent and dying constantly, rather than just waiting around), that's a certain amount of metal/crystal per second that I need to maintain.  Then add on all the energy reactors, and that's yet more that I need to maintain.  As I go through the map and unlock more types of ships through knowledge and capture, my "total replacement cost" for rebuilding all my ships as they are spent goes up and up and up. 

It makes it so that I'm choking on metal and crystal the entire time.  I can get into the 100k or 200k of one or the other if I get out of balance before I notice and come in with manufactories being tweaked.  But, then I tweak it and that immediately goes back into the 20k or less range.  I can't remember the last game where I had more than a 300k balance of metal or crystal, and certainly never at 600k.  I think the difference in style is coming where I see all of the ships as expendable robots, not human lives that I'd preserve.  I tend to have a pretty decent kill-to-loss ratio, between 120% and 400% depending on the game, but I also tend to lose a LOT of ships throughout the game -- easily 1,200 ships an hour.

I'm a 'minimum noise' kind of player which means a typical AIP of not more than 200 before the first AI falls.  Not a fan of suicide runs either so unit churn is pretty low.  (Bizarrely, my style of play would probably benefit the most from a Veterancy mechanic, even tho I do still think Veterancy is not necessary for AI War.)  My score is always very low however because I don't tent to need to rebuild as much as some.  (Incidentally, I'm in favour of the suggested score re-analysis because it does currently reward suicide game play rather than anything else.)

I see, that would certainly make for the difference!  I haven't seen the score thread yet, I'll check that out later this week probably.

If Mercs didn't need Energy (perhaps they sort out their own energy requirements) I would have something to spend my huge reserves on.  Not sure if that has a balance/exploit implication tho.

Yeah, that is true.  Makes them too easy to maintain, then.  Of course, since energy = metal + crystal, you can still spend your metal and crystal on them with no problem, especially if you have a goodly number of planets.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Metal & Crystal
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2010, 10:41:37 am »
I completely forgot about Mercenary Docks! I got all excited when they were introduced as well, but I just plain forgot about them! :-[

:)

That being said, I need to increase my AI progress rate (1/30) because my lack of agression sees my games go on, and on, and on... Not that it's a bad thing, but it is nice to finish a game every now and then. It's also the reason I end up with plenty of resources, although I do stay mindful of energy throughout the entirety of the piece.

Stay tuned for some of the new minor AI factions that will hopefully be released later today.  I haven't announced three of them yet (for the base game, no less), in addition to the four known ones for the expansion.  I think they may also help give you an impetus to move, but I'll leave it at that for now. :)
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Offline NickAragua

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Re: Metal & Crystal
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2010, 04:58:40 pm »
Thanks. Its the vocal minority such as yourself that caused Dawn of War 2 and now the rest of the C&C franchize to completely abolish all resource gathering and base building, half of whats fun in a strategy game :P

Heh, ironic that I find myself on the other side of the resource debate. I remember despising Big Game Hunters way back in Starcraft.

Who said anything about there needing to being an overcomplicated resource scheme?
Apologies, I was responding to Spikey.

In any case, the point I was trying to make is that I disagree with the sentiment that the current resource system needs to be changed in any drastic way. If your play style results in too many resources, you can always crank up the difficulty, that'll knock your resources down quick enough. In lieu of messing around with the resource system, I prefer seeing more stuff on which you can use your resources - thus, I like mercs, golems, etc.

The real limiting factor in resource use is knowledge, in my opinion. If I was able to research more cap ships or more regular ships or whatever, I'd be spending a lot more of my resources. Maybe if there was a way to produce extra knowledge - perhaps at some catastrophic resource cost, like 100k of each resource for 10 points of knowledge, or something like that. That way you'd only be "building knowledge" if you were at the point of having a Scrooge McDuck-style vault and building planet-sized statues of yourself instead of ships.

Ultimately though, this sums up my opinion quite nicely:

energy = metal + crystal.  If you want to power a golem, for instance, you need a ton of energy, which also means a ton of extra metal and crystal.  Assuming that my docks are always cranking out ships at a constant rate (given that my ships are being spent and dying constantly, rather than just waiting around), that's a certain amount of metal/crystal per second that I need to maintain.  Then add on all the energy reactors, and that's yet more that I need to maintain.  As I go through the map and unlock more types of ships through knowledge and capture, my "total replacement cost" for rebuilding all my ships as they are spent goes up and up and up.

Offline I-KP

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Re: Metal & Crystal
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2010, 05:54:31 pm »
Metal and Crystal are entirely a biproduct of capturing planets (which is something you will be doing anyway); I find them to be a tertiary consideration.  Planets control your Engery which in turn is the only resource that directly governs the strength of your forces (and the Metal and Crystal consideration for Engery Generators is paid for by the Command Station that you will be building there to take the planet anyway[1]).  Even Knowledge is secondary to Energy: you can have all the Knowledge you want but what you can build from that glorious knowledge list is, guess what, limited only by your Engery (and the number of Planets you've taken which directly equate to the number of Knowledge gathering opportunities).  Metal and Crystal do very little other than control the rate of your production (not what or how much you can have at all) and as AI War is very much a 'go at your own pace' kind of game you get to choose when the big battles happen to the most extent (or at the very least you know roughly when the AI is about to do anything big) thus build speed isn't as impactful as it might seem.  Getting fixated on the Metal and Crystal incomes I find to be a complete red herring.  If ever you are stuck for Energy the most efficient solution is to take another planet, pretty much any planet (preferrably one that has something worth capturing on it as a bit of a bonus), and slap a MkII Generator on it; the Command Stations provide more than enough Metal & Crystal on their own (particularly the MkII/III versions) thus making anything that the planet offers utterly insignificant by comparison.  It's all about Planets and Energy - everything else looks after itself.

[1] Assuming you never build the hugely wasteful MkIII Generators.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 06:09:48 pm by I-KP »
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Offline HellishFiend

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Re: Metal & Crystal
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2010, 05:56:39 pm »

Stay tuned for some of the new minor AI factions that will hopefully be released later today. 

 :o
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Offline x4000

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Re: Metal & Crystal
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2010, 09:29:44 pm »
Given that I primarily play 4-player co-op, that does skew things a bit for my perception.  But, I play a healthy amount of solo, too.  In 4-player, you almost never have enough resources to do everything that you want, even though there are more resource spots on every planet, because you just can't take as many planets per player as in solo.  So that then makes it so that all of the territory concerns are hugely different there -- you have to figure out how to maximize the territory that you have, which is where MkIII reactors come in, and where the higher-Mk command stations as well.  In solo, those things are less of a concern, but by the same token the total number of ships you have in solo is lower, so it is more difficult to muster really large attack forces. 

In many cases, I find that I simply cannot take another planet while also defending myself with the resources I have in 4-player (depending on the map), which leads to interesting quandaries past a certain point in those games.  Last week I took one new planet, which had an ARS on it, and lost all six of my other planets (and my teammates also lost two of their planets) in the process.  We recaptured those planets (I had already previously lost my home anyway), but that was the cost of diverting forces to a raid two hops away, where they needed to be committed despite the wave of 1,600 mkII ships that then decided to be incoming just as soon as I got there.

Anyway, my point with that is that there are a variety of playstyles, which affects how people look at the various resources, and additionally with different numbers of players that can also have some effect.  Even the ships you are using can make a big difference -- if you're playing with Zenith Bombards and aren't being super careful to keep those alive, your energy and metal and crystal are going to be really hurting most of the campaign.

My takeaway so far is that most people seem pretty happy with the resource balance as it currently is, although there are a variety of different playstyles that can cause wildly different opinions on specifics.  It seems like the majority are not finding metal and crystal to be in too great of abundance, though, so I'm reluctant to do any reductions or anything.  IKP, if you want more of a challenge, you can always give yourself a negative handicap to keep the resources lower to match your playstyle and provide a challenge more tuned for your specific needs.  The best part?  Negative resource handicaps give you a score multiplier in the adjusted score that shows on the high scores list (not the "raw" score shown ingame).

Also also (a complete aside): some of your other concerns about score are probably mitigated with the adjusted score on the high scoreboards list, as that's very differently calculated than the raw score in the game itself.  Frugality with units really goes a long way there, as KTL ratio is a heavy component of that weight.

Back to the subject at hand: I guess this comes down to some beliefs about game design.  I'll give two examples (excuse the length of this, but I'm making a point).

First, New Super Mario Bros. Wii.  In that game, there are really two games (at least).  First, there is the game for "normal mortals" who are nonetheless pretty good at Mario.  Blocks are a certain way so that you can play off your historic Mario knowledge, secrets are designed to be searched out and found in a certain way, everything is tuned to a certain progressive difficulty for those folks (which includes me).  Then there is the other game, which I have never played, but which you can see in their "Super skills" videos.  The levels are all laid out in a way that the people with insane skills can complete the levels at breakneck speed -- for one example, there is one castle in world 7 where there is a row of coins that is totally pointless for normal players, but which if you hit a P block way back further in the level, and then run at that insane speed all the way to those coins, you can slide along them as brick blocks and leap off on the far side right before they come back to coins and dump you in the lava.

Second, there is Left 4 Dead 2.  There are a whole lot of things I could discuss about that are relevant here, but I'll stick to two points. First, on normal difficulty (which is where I play with my wife), there is a lot of room for error and just "having a good time."  You can lose, and we sometimes do, but you also don't have to be pitch-perfect with every aspect of the game.  Even the Witches, one of the most feared enemies in that game, aren't all that bad (still terrifying, but not instant death, which is very different).  There are at least two different games there, with the same levels.  But, even on just normal difficulty level, there are a variety of different sub-games based on what weapons you play with.  I tend to favor certain automatics, a few melee weapons, and stuff like the grenade launcher.  Given that I never play with shotguns, that means that a whole avenue of tactics is pretty much not at my disposal.  The grenade launcher is a discipline in itself, though -- my wife hates it, but is great with the SMG, which I can't stand.

What's my point?  Well, my point is that any game has more components than any one player will ever use.  Some of the coins in Mario games are pointless except to the very best players.  Depending on the weapons player prefer in L4D2, some parts of the game are very difficult or trivially easy.  Depending on the difficulty you play on with L4D2, you can treat it as just a fun diversion, or as a highly tactical simulation of a zombie invasion.  What is "right" is whatever the given player wants to do -- these are games, after all.

Circling back around to AI War, if someone plays a strategy where metal and crystal are never a concern, to me that says there are other huge concerns that they have.  In other words, you are probably doing much more tactical management than I do -- I don't have time to manage most battles, because I tend to do multiple things at once, and so I take more losses.  Some players feel like scouting is completely useless, others feel like its the backbone of the game (I'm in the second camp).  And of course opinions vary wildly on the various ships themselves.  So my point is that it's not a major concern to me if metal and crystal are not always a forefront concern in some playstyles.  I'm very careful to always curtail anything that is exploitative, but that's not the vibe I'm getting here -- what you've said is that it makes metal and crystal not a focus, but shifts the focus elsewhere.  Grenade launcher versus SMG is what I hear, and that's A-OK with me.  The only time I have a problem is when the grenade launcher is so powerful that people are a fool to use anything else (even if using the launcher is really difficult or something, that's still not good).

This has been a very interesting discussion, but my conclusion thus far is that I-KP has found a new way to play that is interesting, which is very different from what most people do, and which has different meta-rules for how to succeed.  I always love it when people bend the games in ways like that, particularly when it's not an exploit I have to nerf. :)  Variety is good!
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Offline I-KP

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Re: Metal & Crystal
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2010, 07:26:14 am »
Didn't think about applying a handicap.  Will give that a go.

I wasn't having a dig, or suggesting that something was wrong, it's just the way that I resolved the game processes down to their most important drivers for my style of play.  It is to AI War's credit that you aren't nailed down to only one MO.

And now you've gone and mentioned L4D2 - my current obssession.  Expert all the way for me and the SMGs are my preferred Tier 1 weapon (105% Accuracy with the Uzi, somehow).
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Offline x4000

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Re: Metal & Crystal
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2010, 10:15:16 am »
Didn't think about applying a handicap.  Will give that a go.

I wasn't having a dig, or suggesting that something was wrong, it's just the way that I resolved the game processes down to their most important drivers for my style of play.  It is to AI War's credit that you aren't nailed down to only one MO.

No worries, I know you weren't having a dig, and didn't think you were.  My main reason for the long post was to explain why I am not too keen to rebalance this based on the data I have at the moment, versus some other things that I jump on and balance's immediately.  I figured that to some outside observers, my logic might seem arbitrary on that point if they didn't know what I was weighting. :)

And now you've gone and mentioned L4D2 - my current obssession.  Expert all the way for me and the SMGs are my preferred Tier 1 weapon (105% Accuracy with the Uzi, somehow).

Ah, very cool.  We definitely have a lot of L4D fans here on the forums, from what I can tell.  I used to play FPSes on the highest difficulty (and still do, with some specific older ones), but I found that turned them into something far more tactical  and stressful than I really want out of the genre.  So mostly I play on normal, or one down from the highest difficulty, for something a bit more relaxed.  Sometimes I just want to run around and shoot things for relaxation, preferably while exploring interesting environments. :)
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Offline Temper

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Re: Metal & Crystal
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2010, 12:15:43 pm »
Concerning the energy costs for Mercenary Space Dock Employees.  While I see how maintaining them at no cost to energy would leave the road open to exploitation, as a passing thought with no penalty to sharing, I bring to consideration that they could have less of an energy cost to their increased metal & crystal cost.  This was just a passing thought, however, and I have no means to defend. Nor will.

Offline Cydonia

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Re: Metal & Crystal
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2010, 02:47:14 pm »
I just wondered if there could be a way to bring knowledge into the resource/energy calculation. Okay, you can get the improved command stations if you spend knowledge, but there could be additional ways to spend knowledge to increase resource/energy output. Like a decrease of the stacking penalty or resource consumption for the plants, or something like mkII miners.
To keep the balance, these things would have their adequate price of knowledge of course. And you could turn the overall production of res./energy a bit down to encourage the use of these additional upgrades. So the player can chose whether he wants to not spend any knowledge on these and run a more resource less game, boost his economy a lot loosing a lot of knowledge, or find a balance between both to get an income like it is right now.

Someone might complain that then you have to spend more knowledge than before to achieve the same economy. The missing knowledge would totally mess up the tactics for knowledge-spending someone might have. Well, you could give more knowledge points at the start to equal this. The player can choose to spend this extra-knowledge on the upgrades, not more or less. Nothing would change compared to the current state. But he could also decide to save the extra points for something else or spend even more on economy. So nothing HAS to change if you don't want it to.

What do you think?
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Offline HellishFiend

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Re: Metal & Crystal
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2010, 04:32:54 pm »
Time to roll out another ball of death.

Offline drumlin

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Re: Metal & Crystal
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2010, 05:23:17 am »
Hi everybody,

just have to drop in. Have the game&the expansion for a couple of days, and like it a lot! I have not been so much into a game for years (compliment for the music!).

In the few games I played, I always had too much metal, but am really short for crystal. I guess its because I like starships and turrets, and I feel like these are heavy in crystal compared to smaller ships. And, at least on my maps, metal seems to be more abundant than crystal.

Maybe it would be an idea to rebalace the cost of metal and crystal a little bit, maybe in a way that not all turrets/starships are heavy in crstal. For example, laser/tractor turrets lot of crystal/less metal, missile based about half/half and basic turrets more metal/less crystal. Something similar could be applied for Starships (Fleet=even, Dreadnought=more metal, Raid/Leech: More crystal).

I am commonly in the situation that I need to (re)build a lot of turrets fast, if I want to set up a beachhead, or face some heavy attack on my planets. Would be great if I could adapt the turret-choice to my resources.


« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 05:26:03 am by drumlin »

Offline Cydonia

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Re: Metal & Crystal
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2010, 05:32:26 am »
Hi drumlin

Are you using manufacters? Maybe these already solve your problem.
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