Let's talk about Z Electric Bombers

[Sunshine!]

Are they worth it?  I'm currently experimenting with them, but after seeing some lackluster results with command station raids, I decided to check their bonus stats.

10 Tank, 0.5 Scout Starship, 2 Heavy Defense, 0.5 Cutlass, 2 Force Field, 0.5 Raid Starship, 0.5 Fleet Starship, 0.5 Alien Starship, 0.5 Dreadnought, 0.5 Bomber Starship, 0.5 Z Shredder, 0.5 Exp Starship

Compare with bombers...
0.5 Fighter, 16 Constructor, 12 Sniper Turret, 16 Frigate, 380 Tank, 8 Command Station, 0.5 Scout Starship, 6 Resource, 30 Heavy Defense, 34 Armored, 0.5 Anti Armor, 12 MLRS, 0.5 Cutlass, 0.5 Bulletproof, 0.5 MicroFighter, 12 Munitions, 30 Force Field, 0.5 Raid Starship, 0.5 Fleet Starship, 0.5 Alien Starship, 0.5 Dreadnought, 0.5 Bomber Starship, 12 Basic Turret, 12 MLRS Turret, 12 Missile Turret, 12 Laser Turret, 12 Lightning Turret, 16 Z Bombardment, 16 Sentinel Frigate, 8 Command Station Core, 16 Z Beam Frigate, 0.5 Z Shredder, 380 Acid Sprayer, 0.5 Exp Starship, 12 Ship Module, 12 Heavy Beam Cannon, 12 Flak Turret

And you get a pretty lackluster picture.  Sure, Mk1 electric bombers have an attack of 8,000 compared to 200 for a mk1 bomber, but I think most people are only going to be using electric bombers in groups of 8, giving 44800 total attack power, compared to 39600 for a full cap of mk1 bombers.  Sure, that's more attack power for the electric bombers, but not by much, and once you add in the attack bonuses (x8 against command stations, x30 against heavy defenses), I'm really not sure if Electric Bombers are all that worthwhile to use, especially as a first pick in a game.

Will report more once I've gotten a better feel for them.  In the meantime, I'd like some outside input.

Update:  Takes 8 Mk1, 8 Mk2, 8 Mk3 Electric Bombers a volley and a half to kill a mk1 command station (12 seconds total), and 8 volleys to kill a special forces guard post (84 seconds).  While they may look impressive, they're just not dangerous enough to actually accomplish anything without getting overwhelmed, it seems.  Yes, the hitpoints and speed help, but in such low numbers they're still quite vulnerable.  I think I'd recommend they basically get close to the same bonuses as bombers so they're usable for the things bombers are supposed to be good at.

And for reference, here's the numbers for the mk3 comparison.  1,400 damage for Mk3 heavy bombers, 56,000 for mk3 electric bombers.  Total of 193,200 (heavy bomber) vs. 313,600 damage (for 8 electric bombers).  About 2.5 times the damage against a normal target for the electric bombers, but against the targets bombers should be good at, doesn't even come close to being worthwhile (627,200 per firing cycle against heavy defenses for mk3 electric bombers?  You're expecting that fortress with 8,800,000 hitpoints to die when?)

[Fruden]

 Electric bombers mk1 and mk2 are pretty terrible, mk3 are alright, mk4 are very good, and core are crazy. Issue is getting there really.

 Except of course when in the hands of the ai that doesnt suffer from the group malus, then they are always crazy good.

 For me they are a ship to be captured, not built, too much knowledge cost to be worth researching, but mk3+ are good enough to launch capture raids in enemy territory to get me some.

[Kjara]

I think the way to look at it is that bombers are currently the best of the core triangle units.  The fact that they are at least close to as good as bombers means that they are an easy way to have a higher bomber cap in the end game when most of the threatening things out there die to bombers(force fields, the new guard posts, forts).

[Sunshine!]

I realize this discussion should probably be moved to Balance Tweaks now, but they're not close to being as good as bombers.  In raw damage, sure, but the damage bonuses bombers get make them far outclass electric bombers, and make electric bombers take forever to kill the targets that have been balanced against normal bombers.

[lanstro]

I think they're one of the better bonus ship classes.  Some of the bonus ship classes are better than the base fighter/bomber/frigates, and a lot are worse.  I agree with the sentiment that they're like having extra ship cap of bombers.  In addition, they're much sturdier than bombers, and on raids (with the new dropping 10 ships at a time rule) dropping 10 electric bombers per second is a lot more potent than 10 normal bombers per second.  Much better than things like acid sprayers, most of the neinzul ships and other very situational bonus ship classes. 

[Sunshine!]

That's an excellent point Lanstro, I'll have to remember that about the transports.  They'll still kill things slower once they get there, but you're far more likely to get them all back in one piece, even in a relatively heavily fortified area.  I'll have to try that out.

[MaxAstro]

Personally I hate Z Elec Bombers, mainly because of their completely ridiculous hit points and the sheer numbers the AI uses them in.  They are always the last ships I clear off a planet, still kicking after everything else is dead, and I have yet to find a ship type that pops them particularly fast.

I don't use them much because I don't like group malus ships.

[superking]

Personally I hate Z Elec Bombers, mainly because of their completely ridiculous hit points and the sheer numbers the AI uses them in.  They are always the last ships I clear off a planet, still kicking after everything else is dead, and I have yet to find a ship type that pops them particularly fast.

I don't use them much because I don't like group malus ships.

agree, the AI uses too many- same with sentinel frigates.

and yeah, I came to similar conclusions about their effectiveness- not as good as bombers in 99% of situations.

[Draco18s]

Much better than things like acid sprayers, most of the neinzul ships and other very situational bonus ship classes. 

"Much better than [the worst ship in the game]" isn't saying much.  "Better than a neinzul" also isn't saying much (there's all of two or three that are worth having--commandos being one).

Also, didn't z electric bombers recently get a cluster penalty?  Hmm...not seeing it on the Current Beta page, so maybe I'm mistaken.

[Sizzle]

Much better than things like acid sprayers, most of the neinzul ships and other very situational bonus ship classes.  

"Much better than [the worst ship in the game]" isn't saying much.  "Better than a neinzul" also isn't saying much (there's all of two or three that are worth having--commandos being one).

Also, didn't z electric bombers recently get a cluster penalty?  Hmm...not seeing it on the Current Beta page, so maybe I'm mistaken.

If there are Neinzul that aren't worth having, now is the time to post feedback about the specific units, and why they fall short -- rather than simply passing judgement on them as you seem to be doing.   Course I haven't scoured the forums to see if you've already done so.... so if you have, we'll see what Keith and Chris have to say on it.  I already recall seeing a post about Acid Sprayers needing some love.


 Edit:  Saw your post http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,6638.msg54857.html#msg54857  so ... we'll see!    Comment retracted

[Draco18s]

I'm pretty sure it was one of my (other) gripes that got Acid Sprayers rebalanced too, so that they do 10 damage against non-zenith ships (instead of 1).

But they're still not worth having.

[soMe_RandoM]

these best ship same as the sniper one as they require minimal number of them to destroy single uncovered command station minimal time and thus with nuclear command ai mod it saves you alot of c/m

[TheMachineIsSentient]

We need an updated calculation table for all the ships and bonuses. Only then can we give a true analysis; I certainly cannot remember all of the percentages for each ship. It would have been easier if each ship had a class.

For example, "the Correlian line of weapon armaments are particularly punishing against Kol armor class."

[Draco18s]

We need an updated calculation table for all the ships and bonuses. Only then can we give a true analysis; I certainly cannot remember all of the percentages for each ship. It would have been easier if each ship had a class.

For example, "the Correlian line of weapon armaments is particularly punishing against Kol armor class."

And Chris most definitely does not want to do that.  I've already mentioned it. :|

[TheMachineIsSentient]

We need an updated calculation table for all the ships and bonuses. Only then can we give a true analysis; I certainly cannot remember all of the percentages for each ship. It would have been easier if each ship had a class.

For example, "the Correlian line of weapon armaments is particularly punishing against Kol armor class."

And Chris most definitely does not want to do that.  I've already mentioned it. :|

It's been done! See the balance release for unity!