Author Topic: If aiwar was a pvp game...  (Read 3438 times)

Offline Lancefighter

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If aiwar was a pvp game...
« on: October 07, 2010, 03:45:35 am »
What nasty strategies would you use against your opponent?
(assuming not many of the mechanics are changed too much..)

I will start off with: Spider turrets everywhere. Preferably, someplace in my opponents systems, ideally the same planet with his space docks. You cant counter-sniper everywhere...  8)
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Offline lanstro

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Re: If aiwar was a pvp game...
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2010, 07:40:42 pm »
I'd imagine it'd be dominated with usage of transports, and much of the gameplay will revolve around the denying and protection of the economy (particularly harvestors).  Since scouts are so powerful (reveal whole planet) and are likely to be hard to deny (hard to kill due to speed, cloak, and hiding on the outer reaches of planets, and easy to replace even if killed), the players will likely know almost everything that is going on with their opponents.

Ship choice would be dominated by faster or teleporting ships, and stealthy ones.  Slow ships will only be useful when used with transports.  Transports will be denied using grav turrets.

If it's a small map where the players are close (within 3 hops), both players would start with stealthy, quick ships to try to take out the opponent's economy.  If the game moves past that phase (and I would imagine most games won't), both players would guard their wormholes better against these types ships (tachyon beams and/or grav turrets), which will lead to the transporting-in of raid troops.  After that phase, a sneaky transport full of bombers and the like right into the home planet would be the easiest way to finish the game.  It'll likely be a low-tech game and so harassment, micromanagement of troops and positioning will decide it.

A bigger map would be more interesting since it'll be more macro-intensive.  The first phase would have both players expanding heavily into neutral planets while sending scouts to all opposing planets to figure out how quickly the opponent is moving.  The 'first contact' will be intense: if one player is caught off-guard, I think it'd be very likely that he/she would quickly get steamrolled by the prepared player since their infrastructure would be mostly geared towards the economic game.  So the player who transitions into the midgame at the right time will have the advantage.

If both players are equally skilled then this is likely to move to a higher tech war.  Depending on how 'open' the map is, on a snakey or similarly closed off map, it will turn into a very defensive battle as both players tower up key choke points, making it akin to WW1 trench warfare, or on a more open map like realistic or hubs, it will instead be an entertaining open game where static defences on most planets are a waste of money because there are just so many entrances.  Then it becomes a war of denying the opponent's economy until you can land the killing blow(s) using raid starships, cloaker starships, teleporters, nukes or a combination thereof.

TheMachineIsSentient

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Re: If aiwar was a pvp game...
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2010, 07:56:30 pm »
What about a race to kill one AI? The first person wins.


player a <--- some nodes-------- AI---------- some nodes---> Player B

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: If aiwar was a pvp game...
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2010, 07:58:46 pm »
... so what particular tactic would you use? I'm interested in what fun things you can think of to do :)


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TheMachineIsSentient

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Re: If aiwar was a pvp game...
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2010, 10:54:19 pm »
There are a couple game mechanics I can think of that I'm just naming off the top of my head:
  • Every ship you kill sends a ship to the other side as part of a wave
  • killing hybrids relocates them to the nearest planet of the other player
  • if both players get to the center at the same time, it could be a mad dash for the last hit
  • if you could get to the other person's base, your turrets would fire on them but your ships would not
  • accomplishing goals would send waves to the other side
  • if the other player dies, they have the option of joining the first player or leaving the game

The last option would allow the game to "complete" and sort of make friends, not just beat them up. I also like the idea of sending waves back and forth.

Offline soMe_RandoM

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Re: If aiwar was a pvp game...
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2010, 02:16:06 am »
if pvp was concept then having superior turrets then your enemy would be better as your economy would work. thus having increased turrets and increased economy and only doing that i bet that they wont be able to stop 1,500 mercenary bombers in 8 transports from attacking there home command station. ecom best strategy to do get best turrets so don't use as much energy increased force fields so you need less. spider turrets and best grav + tractor turrets be first unlocks once they are finance then no other needs. once they are done just spam the bombers then win only problem is the warheads so spreading out all 8 transport that alot of groups (9) then unload all then aim for home command station totally disregarding defenses after u emp it off alot. it be so mean to it be taht way but i would like it to be good prequel to the beginning of ai development then soon you see ur ships turn against your command station and taking over the home station that becomes ai. you are then forced to work to gether then when you see them turning only the small ships will turn and the star ships are your only last defence that be awsOME!
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Offline RCIX

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Re: If aiwar was a pvp game...
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2010, 05:02:57 am »
I'd imagine it'd be dominated with usage of transports, and much of the gameplay will revolve around the denying and protection of the economy (particularly harvestors).  Since scouts are so powerful (reveal whole planet) and are likely to be hard to deny (hard to kill due to speed, cloak, and hiding on the outer reaches of planets, and easy to replace even if killed), the players will likely know almost everything that is going on with their opponents.

Ship choice would be dominated by faster or teleporting ships, and stealthy ones.  Slow ships will only be useful when used with transports.  Transports will be denied using grav turrets.

If it's a small map where the players are close (within 3 hops), both players would start with stealthy, quick ships to try to take out the opponent's economy.  If the game moves past that phase (and I would imagine most games won't), both players would guard their wormholes better against these types ships (tachyon beams and/or grav turrets), which will lead to the transporting-in of raid troops.  After that phase, a sneaky transport full of bombers and the like right into the home planet would be the easiest way to finish the game.  It'll likely be a low-tech game and so harassment, micromanagement of troops and positioning will decide it.

A bigger map would be more interesting since it'll be more macro-intensive.  The first phase would have both players expanding heavily into neutral planets while sending scouts to all opposing planets to figure out how quickly the opponent is moving.  The 'first contact' will be intense: if one player is caught off-guard, I think it'd be very likely that he/she would quickly get steamrolled by the prepared player since their infrastructure would be mostly geared towards the economic game.  So the player who transitions into the midgame at the right time will have the advantage.

If both players are equally skilled then this is likely to move to a higher tech war.  Depending on how 'open' the map is, on a snakey or similarly closed off map, it will turn into a very defensive battle as both players tower up key choke points, making it akin to WW1 trench warfare, or on a more open map like realistic or hubs, it will instead be an entertaining open game where static defences on most planets are a waste of money because there are just so many entrances.  Then it becomes a war of denying the opponent's economy until you can land the killing blow(s) using raid starships, cloaker starships, teleporters, nukes or a combination thereof.
Exactly why i want PVP in AI War :)
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Offline NickAragua

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Re: If aiwar was a pvp game...
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2010, 03:32:00 pm »
Given that it's incredibly difficult to pay detailed attention to more than one or two systems at a time, I suspect it would boil down to blind luck - if there's more than one route into your home system, there's no way you'd be able to keep an eye on all routes, or build enough turrets to counter the kinds of massive, concentrated, multi-faceted armies that players field without paying explicit attention and sending your fleet over. I expect it would boil down to a race of "who is the first to build ships that can bypass forcefields', then sending your ten raid starships over to the opponent's home system while launching a big diversionary attack somewhere else. While the klaxons are blaring over in "Gamma Random Nobody System", you sneak your raid starships through the empty space and zap the enemy's home command station with about five salvos.

So, there would need to be a much better means of area denial and a better alerts system than currently exists.

Now, if one of the players could play as the AI (still using the AI rules so they still wouldn't get direct control of most ships...)

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: If aiwar was a pvp game...
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2010, 04:37:21 pm »
well id disagree there - i think a lot of it will come down to losing systems often while your fleet moves to intercept. scout intel will be very important just to keep an eye on hostile movements on the map.
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Offline Spikey00

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Re: If aiwar was a pvp game...
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2010, 07:12:25 pm »
Maximize effectiveness with teleport units/unit kiting, harassment, better map awareness, more macro/micro efficiency, attempting to prevent myself from falling asleep or web browsing, sending over mobile builders and spamming rally points to annoy... LOL

Besides that, game knowledge would be greatly emphasized; one who understands the game intricately shall win in such a vast-scale game, of course, with some macro/micro.  Obviously the special ship type chosen will matter, unless they are unlocked through planet ownership (which I would prefer).  Beyond that, harassment and causing opposing players to over-react/spend ship cap elsewhere would be crucial.

However, I imagine that there will be a meta-game consisting of stalemates, and large emphasis with mercenary ships to counter massing defenses and etc.; pushing is going to be difficult when players have established a main front[, which would be a problem from my prospective].

Another issue is that human inner-planets would be at great risk, unless free AI-like reinforcements of garrisons and such were provided, and the players would mainly have to focus on commanding ships and anti-tower defense.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: If aiwar was a pvp game...
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2010, 01:35:17 am »
Keeping scouts away would be pretty easy for the first player to get a Counterspy on a bottleneck planet.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: If aiwar was a pvp game...
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2010, 02:34:34 am »
scout starships?
edit:
I'm fairly sure those ARE the counter to counterspy AIs, after all. As an added bonus, one of them is tachyon immune!
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: If aiwar was a pvp game...
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2010, 03:22:31 am »
Aye, starships would certainly help, and with the limited shipcap on those, you'd have more trouble keeping an eye on everything. But good call!
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Offline lanstro

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Re: If aiwar was a pvp game...
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2010, 08:49:25 pm »
Or you could transport a load of scouts through the chokepoint planet.  Apart from snakes-type maps, seriously doubt that any of the trader's buildings would be a good investment in a pvp game: far too expensive for their utility.

Offline superking

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Re: If aiwar was a pvp game...
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2010, 06:22:20 am »
However, I imagine that there will be a meta-game consisting of stalemates, and large emphasis with mercenary ships to counter massing defenses and etc.; pushing is going to be difficult when players have established a main front[, which would be a problem from my prospective].

then again though, any player buildups could easily be EMP/lightninged, and human players cant insta-replace losses like the AI can- dispersion will be important

I think high MK forcefilds, harvester exo shields, warheads, anti-missle/darkmatter, gravity turrets & zenith mirrors will be some of the most used unlocks (Z mirrors because MK III mirrors easily can win 100 vs 1 with pretty much anything they can reflect if they keep their distance so their shielding reduces damage taken)

also alot of transport BS