Author Topic: Focus fire vs non focus fire  (Read 3020 times)

Offline mindloss

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Focus fire vs non focus fire
« on: August 25, 2011, 08:41:56 am »
Yeah, I have a bunch of new-person questions... one of them is, there's a whole bunch of interesting options in the CTRL screen. Among other things, there're the two checkboxes for focus fire or not. Default is not, so I assume that's generally better, but can anyone give me a more informed answer? I assume in some situations one is better, and in some the other. I've flicked it on and off and not noticed a big difference in general so far.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Focus fire vs non focus fire
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2011, 09:00:50 am »
To notice the difference between focus fire and not you'd need to pay close attention to a relatively small fight (like 20 fighters vs 20 fighters).  Generally the results are better with focus fire because you destroy enemy ships faster rather than damaging a lot of them.  It's not the default because focus-fire is somewhat more prone to make sub-optimal decisions in more complex situations (part of the fleet is in range, part isn't, etc), though personally I just always use focus-fire.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Focus fire vs non focus fire
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2011, 09:02:26 am »
I think it is better to not focus fire, but some players disagree and so we have the option.  In most circumstances, especially if the battle is not a very even battle, you will see no difference whatsoever.

The difference is that with focus fire, your ships will try to stack up on AI ships as much as possible to kill each one as fast as possible.  Without focus fire, aka the default, your ships will try to stack only a little bit, but to make sure they have basically "man to man coverage" on the AI ships, so that all the AI ships are taking damage as you go.

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Why do man to man?  Well, each time an enemy target is destroyed, your ships that were attacking it have to find a new target.  They keep lists of potential targets, but in a big battle with a lot of ships moving around and blowing up, their list can get invalidated pretty fast.  They're only able to go down that list so fast (same with the AI's ships), so if there's been a ton of explosions in the local area then they're going to waste possibly as much as a second or two before they find something else on their list that is still alive and that is the next most preferred target.

If it's not attack-move or FRD on those ships of yours, then you also need to add the qualifier "and is still in range."  If they are in attack-move or FRD, then the first viable target that is still living is what they will go after -- even if that target has moved substantially.  Ship target lists are updated on a rolling schedule, and there's a max number of target lists per second that can be updated (it also depends on how many targets there are, but it's usually hundreds or a thousand plus per second).  So that means that if there's a really large battle, anyway, the targeting lists are being updated more slowly, and thus if ships are moving around substantially then each target-change is going to be that much less efficient.

In my view, doing man to man results in less downtime for your ships, and more bullets fired against enemy ships in the same amount of time.  Thus, maximum overall damage output, especially in really huge battles with lots of movement.  If the battle is small, not evenly matched, or not including ships moving around much, then the effect of this goes down.

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Why do focus fire?  Well, the theory here is that you kill off enemies faster, thus leading them to fire fewer bullets against you, thus leading you to take less damage and lose fewer ships, thus also allowing you to do more damage in return over the course of a long battle.  I can see the appeal of this, and why some players feel like this is a better thing.  In some cases it definitely is, and in some cases it definitely isn't.

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So the big question is, should you be toggling this back and forth as you play?  In my view, the answer is no.  The AI doesn't use focus fire, and so you're not at a disadvantage by not using it.  The game is balanced around not using it.  If you use it, you might derive some advantage in very close battles without a lot of movement, but honestly most battles tend not to be that close.  Either the AI is rolling you, or you're focusing your forces on its forces in such a way that you're hopefully rolling it in that one small engagement.  The AI always globally outnumbers you 10000:1 or whatever, but I tend to try to make sure that I outnumber the AI 2:1 at most guard post engagements I am involved in, or to string out the AI on my planets so that I can engage them 2:1 or 3:1 or whatever as they stream along to me.  And when you outnumber the AI, having focus fire OFF is definitely preferable.

In my view, which others disagree with, the only sensible time to use focus fire is if you're constantly in even battles that are fairly sedate in their movement.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Focus fire vs non focus fire
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2011, 09:07:10 am »
There are some seeming logical errors in my argument above, regarding evenly matched battles or battles with a lot of movement; I'm claiming that it's alternately a benefit or a hindrance to both modes.  And the problem is, that's actually true.  There are more factors at work here, and it's a very complex and variant sort of thing.

Suffice it to say, I think you'll get pretty equivalent results with either method, really, in the end.  But in really large battles in particular, the focus fire can lead to your ships sitting around more; at the same time that it leads to AI ships being dead faster.  So which one is the greater net effect on the battle is generally hard to say, and there is much disagreement from folks about it.

So we added the option and let people choose, and that's about that. ;)
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Focus fire vs non focus fire
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2011, 09:10:10 am »
It's sort of like two different ways to run a sausage factory: the details are complex and unpleasant ;)

I'd be interested to see results from some players running the same engagement with and without focus-fire.  For it to work right you'd need to save before the fight starts and change the toggles before the ships had a chance to target each other, otherwise they'll still have their starting target lists which can last a while depending on the circumstances (or less than a few seconds if there's a ton of firepower going around).
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Offline x4000

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Re: Focus fire vs non focus fire
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2011, 09:12:54 am »
Yup.

And even then, you've got a lot of variables that make just one test of that not the best: the AI makes different decisions each time, etc.  We'd need a variety of results from battles of a variety of sizes, run multiple times each preferably, to really get a sense for definitely if one is better in some circumstances or not.  Certainly fewer tests would give us some indicators, but I think those could be misleading in favor of either side.
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Offline mindloss

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Re: Focus fire vs non focus fire
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2011, 11:27:59 am »
Interesting stuff! I love the prompt responses on here.

I had been thinking about doing some of those tests, just saving before I happen to run into a planned engagement and trying it both ways, but I wondered whether or not the result would be deterministic ... are you plucking constantly reseeded random numbers that get factored into these fights, or if I save and let it play out twice, will the outcome be identical? I guess I could just test that one first. :)

Offline x4000

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Re: Focus fire vs non focus fire
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2011, 11:32:31 am »
The results are deterministic in a single play session (for the purposes of multiplayer being able to work), EXCEPT for the inputs from the human and AI players.  But that's different from the smaller ship AI, which is deterministic.  That said, you get a new random seed every time you load a game, so it's never going to be the same result twice for that reason, even if the AI and human players didn't make any choices.
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Offline mindloss

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Re: Focus fire vs non focus fire
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2011, 04:05:39 am »
BTW, I did a very informal test earlier with one lopsided engagement... and the results were very surprising, but not how I expected.

I had a good assortment of ships (~556 = most of the basic starships, good amounts of Mk1-3 frig/fight/bomb). Opponent was engaging in open space (no turrets) with... a couple of hundred Zenith I Beam Frigates? That could be wrong. A smaller but decent amount of a beam ship.

I let it run a few times on no focus, and a few times on focus, careful to get checkboxes set before targeting and not touching anything else. This is roughly what I found, from memory:

My ships remaining, for

focus: 542, 536, 496, 416 (!)
non-focus: 552 (!), 536, 510, 486

...or roughly like that. So yeah, like you both said, the difference is basically negligible it seems, except that it's not really appropriate to draw ANY conclusion from this data set, except that there's a LOT more noise than I would've guessed.... luck can play a huge factor! Losing a quarter of my fleet vs. losing 4 ships? I imagine that's specific to fighting tricky ships like beam weapons that are luck-prone, but still, good to know. The data also hint at less variance on non-focus, but again I think it's virtually meaningless with the noise. Definitely need some more carefully set up tests. :)

Offline x4000

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Re: Focus fire vs non focus fire
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2011, 07:05:29 am »
Good start with the data -- definitely as much noise as expected. Whew that's a lot, though! :)
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Focus fire vs non focus fire
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2011, 10:03:29 am »
Yea, that does also hint at something we're likely to find is true in general no matter how many tests: target choosing is only one of many factors in how well your ships do.

For instance, if you'd formed your ships into two half circles and converged on the beam frigates, you'd almost always take minimal losses due to the beam-line mechanic.

Honestly in this case the main difference may have been in the _AI's_ target choice: in some cases it randomly picks ships on the edge of your fleet and hammers them, but the lines thus drawn don't interact with much of the rest of your fleet.

Anyway, yea, interesting data.  Perhaps focus fire isn't as good as I thought ;)  Iirc I left the non-sniper version somewhat rudimentary due to the difficulty of factoring in that your fleet is spread out over a significant area; the sniper version may have more of an advantage due to the vastly simplified targeting problem they face.
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Offline mindloss

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Re: Focus fire vs non focus fire
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2011, 01:07:24 pm »
Yeah, it was unclear to me why there were two separate options until the whole targeting overhead thing was explained. Sounds like sniper focus fire is a sure safe bet, and a who-knows-who-cares for now for the other...

Offline x4000

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Re: Focus fire vs non focus fire
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2011, 01:09:17 pm »
That's more or less my read, too.
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