Author Topic: Finished first game, questions on stuff  (Read 1954 times)

Offline Lemon

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Finished first game, questions on stuff
« on: July 18, 2011, 07:07:28 pm »
Played my first game on AI difficulty 7 with 80 planets and most of the bells and whistles turned on. Was fun, but kind of easy so I plan on starting a new game at 8 or 9 difficulty and/or with stronger AI opponents. Have a few questions related to how a number of things work before that though:

Offensive turtling (my name for it): that is, putting up turrets in a hostile non-neutered planet to bleed off reinforcements. Is it a good idea? According to how I think things work if you turreted up a handful of alert Mk 1 AI planets very early you could completely shutdown 90% of the reinforcements the AI gets throughout the game. I tried some of this out, not sure how well it works since I didn't have much of a benchmark to compare against.

Gate Raiding: I can't see how this is helpful? Warp waves give you plenty of time to prepare and have your fleet ready to fight off the attack, and +5 AI progress multiplied on several worlds would seem to be counterproductive. Yet everyone seems to think that leaving more than 1 adjacent warp gate up is a bad idea. Spamming 100s of turrets coupled with a large AI progress increase to fight off waves seems much less effective then having your fleet take 5 minutes away from kicking the crap out of AI planets and defending. What am I missing here?

Dyson Sphere: insanely overpowered or just ridiculously overpowered? I found one of these 2 planets away from my starting position, and 10 minutes after capturing it I had ~2000 allied firepower patrolling through each and every planet I owned (decreased to 500-1000 firepower as I took planets, but thats still huge). Is this normal? I basically didn't have to produce a single defensive turret all game except for on my home planet, I just built shields and my ally handled everything short of wave attacks.

Golems/Spirecraft: The AI was supposed to use these? I never saw a single one either in the wave attacks or in the AI defense forces, and my own golems were almost as overpowered offensively as the Dyson sphere was defensively. Once I amassed 3 Cursed, 1 Artillery, 1 Botnet and 1 Regenerator I basically just grouped them together with my forces and FRD'ed them through about 10 systems in a row to win. Seems too easy this way. Does the AI start using nice big meaty golems and spirecraft on higher difficulties? Unless they do it seems like you may as well declare victory once you get 2 or more good golems.

Spirecraft Shield Bearers: Useless? I can't see any reason at all to use these, which is a shame because they would be really nice if not for their inability to be repaired. Why would anyone waste semi-irreplaceable resources on something that is designed to attract damage yet can't be repaired? Worst of all, their shield radius goes down as they get damage, so you can effectively cut their real HP in half because after that they don't do much. Shield Bearer fighters seem 100x better since you can spam your heart out, they can offer more combined shield power than the spirecraft and are repairable. Even if you don't have those simply streaming regular fighters at something as a screen works out to a massively better resource/HP ratio, nevermind the asteroid saved.

Spirecraft Rams: Any way to keep these off FRD if you have auto-FRD selected in the options? A 1 shot unit wasting its 40 million+ attack on the first random 1 million health enemy to enter a system makes me cry, and since I am too manly to be able to afford crying every 5 mins with other people in the room, I moved on to...

Spirecraft Implosion Artillery: For some reason I'm having problems getting them to work against the AI fortresses. They should easily rip it apart, having 25k range vs 20k. But whenever I tell them to attack they either bug out and move too far away to fire (if I have Auto-kiting on) or move too close and get instantly mauled by the fortress. Eventually I just gave up on trying to make my 15 strong force of these work and just had a cursed golem pummel away at the fortresses for 5 mins.

Starships in general: How viable are they as primary force in lieu of massed starfighters? I was afraid to invest in them overly much since they can't take advantage of the advanced factory to massively increase my standing forces. Knowledge constraints would seem to make 400 fighters vs 2 starships a pretty easy choice.

Thanks in advance for any response.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 07:26:47 pm by Lemon »

Offline Orelius

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Re: Finished first game, questions on stuff
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2011, 08:26:56 pm »
Offensive turtling (my name for it): that is, putting up turrets in a hostile non-neutered planet to bleed off reinforcements. Is it a good idea? According to how I think things work if you turreted up a handful of alert Mk 1 AI planets very early you could completely shutdown 90% of the reinforcements the AI gets throughout the game. I tried some of this out, not sure how well it works since I didn't have much of a benchmark to compare against.

Sounds like a good plan on paper, though there's a reason it doesn't work well:  The turrets will constantly get damaged or destroyed, forcing you to micro extensively as I don't think it's possible to autobuild engineers or remains rebuilders on a hostile world.  In either case, engineers and remains rebuilders get killed so easily on non-friendly worlds so it's not really worth doing so.

Gate Raiding: I can't see how this is helpful? Warp waves give you plenty of time to prepare and have your fleet ready to fight off the attack, and +5 AI progress multiplied on several worlds would seem to be counterproductive. Yet everyone seems to think that leaving more than 1 adjacent warp gate up is a bad idea. Spamming 100s of turrets coupled with a large AI progress increase to fight off waves seems much less effective then having your fleet take 5 minutes away from kicking the crap out of AI planets and defending. What am I missing here?

It allows you to force the AI to go through one "checkpoint" and die in large troves.  Useful when you cover a lot of territory so you can just set up one world that kills everything.  Otherwise, your limited number of turrets and fortresses would be largely spread out and ineffective against a truly large attack.  Your strategy consists entirely of a rolling defense, which I use in the early game, and is great in its flexibility.  However, against higher difficulty AIs, you'll soon find yourself overwhelmed as you can't cover every single of your border planets unless you've got a chokepoint.

Dyson Sphere: insanely overpowered or just ridiculously overpowered? I found one of these 2 planets away from my starting position, and 10 minutes after capturing it I had ~2000 allied firepower patrolling through each and every planet I owned (decreased to 500-1000 firepower as I took planets, but thats still huge). Is this normal? I basically didn't have to produce a single defensive turret all game except for on my home planet, I just built shields and my ally handled everything short of wave attacks.

Protip:  firepower is only something that should really have meaning to the AI.  It's simply not useful as a gauging mechanic for ship strength.

Gatlings are a great thing to have on your side in the early game, in the mid-to-late game they're okay but I find that they just lag my game with their sheer numbers, and suiciding themselves onto AI worlds whenever I'm trying to concentrate on something important.

Golems/Spirecraft: The AI was supposed to use these? I never saw a single one either in the wave attacks or in the AI defense forces, and my own golems were almost as overpowered offensively as the Dyson sphere was defensively. Once I amassed 3 Cursed, 1 Artillery, 1 Botnet and 1 Regenerator I basically just grouped them together with my forces and FRD'ed them through about 10 systems in a row to win. Seems too easy this way. Does the AI start using nice big meaty golems and spirecraft on higher difficulties? Unless they do it seems like you may as well declare victory once you get 2 or more good golems.

Are you using easy spirecraft/golems?  That's probably why.  The AI does not get any of those while playing with the easy minor factions enabled.  When playing with the hard spirecraft/golems minor factions, the AI gets lots of spirecraft and golems to play with in their exo waves.  Did I mention that hard mode also adds an extra exo-wave per hour per hard minor faction enabled?

Also, the hard AI type Golemite has golems that are more or less fully functional on several of their planets.  Another hard AI type also adds spirecraft in their normal waves, I think, though I do not recall it right now.

Spirecraft Shield Bearers: Useless? I can't see any reason at all to use these, which is a shame because they would be really nice if not for their inability to be repaired. Why would anyone waste semi-irreplaceable resources on something that is designed to attract damage yet can't be repaired? Worst of all, their shield radius goes down as they get damage, so you can effectively cut their real HP in half because after that they don't do much. Shield Bearer fighters seem 100x better since you can spam your heart out, they can offer more combined shield power than the spirecraft and are repairable. Even if you don't have those simply streaming regular fighters at something as a screen works out to a massively better resource/HP ratio, nevermind the asteroid saved.

They're useful for some, but I personally don't bother with them.  If you don't like it, don't use it.
I guess it's best for clutch situations where you really need a mobile forcefield to protect your ships.

Spirecraft Rams: Any way to keep these off FRD if you have auto-FRD selected in the options? A 1 shot unit wasting its 40 million+ attack on the first random 1 million health enemy to enter a system makes me cry, and since I am too manly to be able to afford crying every 5 mins with other people in the room, I moved on to...

You can give individual orders to units like rams that override the autofrd if you enable autofrd.
Or you could just store them in a remote location completely unexposed to enemy ships.  I don't tend to build rams unless I want to assault a homeworld or quickly kill a golem when my other defenses are tied up elsewhere.

Spirecraft Implosion Artillery: For some reason I'm having problems getting them to work against the AI fortresses. They should easily rip it apart, having 25k range vs 20k. But whenever I tell them to attack they either bug out and move too far away to fire (if I have Auto-kiting on) or move too close and get instantly mauled by the fortress. Eventually I just gave up on trying to make my 15 strong force of these work and just had a cursed golem pummel away at the fortresses for 5 mins.
Some ships, especially AI ships, have radar dampening effects that prevents you from simply sniping them from out of their range.  Implosion artillery are best for hitting high-hp units or structures while being covered by other units that take the hits.

Besides, you're probably better off using bombers on fortresses as bombers are practically immune to flame waves.

Starships in general: How viable are they as primary force in lieu of massed starfighters? I was afraid to invest in them overly much since they can't take advantage of the advanced factory to massively increase my standing forces. Knowledge constraints would seem to make 400 fighters vs 2 starships a pretty easy choice.

Starships are not meant to operate alone, with maybe the exception of the raid starship.  They're meant to complement your fleet.  The knowledge unlock ships allow you to more of these starships that can make your fleet so much more powerful.  I personally prefer having large amounts of small weak ships that can be easily replaced, but when I have surplus resources, I often invest in a fleet starship or two to multiply the attack power of my entire fleet by 1.6.
I don't normally get starship knowledge unlocks as I primarily focus on my economy rather than my military.

Hope that helped!

Offline Lemon

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Re: Finished first game, questions on stuff
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2011, 09:22:30 pm »
Offensive turtling (my name for it): that is, putting up turrets in a hostile non-neutered planet to bleed off reinforcements. Is it a good idea? According to how I think things work if you turreted up a handful of alert Mk 1 AI planets very early you could completely shutdown 90% of the reinforcements the AI gets throughout the game. I tried some of this out, not sure how well it works since I didn't have much of a benchmark to compare against.

Sounds like a good plan on paper, though there's a reason it doesn't work well:  The turrets will constantly get damaged or destroyed, forcing you to micro extensively as I don't think it's possible to autobuild engineers or remains rebuilders on a hostile world.  In either case, engineers and remains rebuilders get killed so easily on non-friendly worlds so it's not really worth doing so.

My semi-solution to this was to have the engineers/rebuilders auto-FRD out beyond the slow-barrier of the system, so that it takes about 20s of time for them to run back to the turrets at which point any enemy should be gone (and if they aren't the turret line is probably dead anyway which just means 2x as many turrets there next time). Your thoughts?

Gate Raiding: I can't see how this is helpful? Warp waves give you plenty of time to prepare and have your fleet ready to fight off the attack, and +5 AI progress multiplied on several worlds would seem to be counterproductive. Yet everyone seems to think that leaving more than 1 adjacent warp gate up is a bad idea. Spamming 100s of turrets coupled with a large AI progress increase to fight off waves seems much less effective then having your fleet take 5 minutes away from kicking the crap out of AI planets and defending. What am I missing here?

It allows you to force the AI to go through one "checkpoint" and die in large troves.  Useful when you cover a lot of territory so you can just set up one world that kills everything.  Otherwise, your limited number of turrets and fortresses would be largely spread out and ineffective against a truly large attack.  Your strategy consists entirely of a rolling defense, which I use in the early game, and is great in its flexibility.  However, against higher difficulty AIs, you'll soon find yourself overwhelmed as you can't cover every single of your border planets unless you've got a chokepoint.

Why would you need to cover every single one of your planets though? The only time I saw more than 1 attack at a time was when I specifically caused it by killing or being near certain posts. Do higher difficulties launch multiple waves at the same time?

Also, frankly I don't even care about the majority of my border planets, if the AI gets one or two I can quickly rebuild for next to nothing after cleaning up the pieces. If worse comes to worst one can always draw in 5 engineers from neighboring systems and speed build 5 shields. As long as my homeworld, advanced factories and anything that gives AIP is safe they can take whatever the heck they like if they promise to give it back in about 30s when my fleet arrives. :)

Dyson Sphere: insanely overpowered or just ridiculously overpowered? I found one of these 2 planets away from my starting position, and 10 minutes after capturing it I had ~2000 allied firepower patrolling through each and every planet I owned (decreased to 500-1000 firepower as I took planets, but thats still huge). Is this normal? I basically didn't have to produce a single defensive turret all game except for on my home planet, I just built shields and my ally handled everything short of wave attacks.

Protip:  firepower is only something that should really have meaning to the AI.  It's simply not useful as a gauging mechanic for ship strength.

Gatlings are a great thing to have on your side in the early game, in the mid-to-late game they're okay but I find that they just lag my game with their sheer numbers, and suiciding themselves onto AI worlds whenever I'm trying to concentrate on something important.

I haven't seen a single Gatling suicide on an AI world, they just patrol my worlds and keep piling and piling up as the Dyson Sphere spits out more. And IMO they are ridiculously powerful, 400k damage on a 2s recharge with 13k range? I would bet 10 of these could take out an entire cap of Mk IV fighters without hardly a scratch, and I often have 20 in each system with another 30 or more popping in whenever something bad arrives, all for free. They seem to make defense really, really easy for me. They have taken out entire waves of the AI when I just didn't feel like moving my entire fleet around to defend a system that wasn't all that important. Maybe they get weaker in really long games though, I didn't get much over 200-250 AIP before I blitzed the AI and ended the game with about 600 AIP about 30 mins later.

Golems/Spirecraft: The AI was supposed to use these? I never saw a single one either in the wave attacks or in the AI defense forces, and my own golems were almost as overpowered offensively as the Dyson sphere was defensively. Once I amassed 3 Cursed, 1 Artillery, 1 Botnet and 1 Regenerator I basically just grouped them together with my forces and FRD'ed them through about 10 systems in a row to win. Seems too easy this way. Does the AI start using nice big meaty golems and spirecraft on higher difficulties? Unless they do it seems like you may as well declare victory once you get 2 or more good golems.

Are you using easy spirecraft/golems?  That's probably why.  The AI does not get any of those while playing with the easy minor factions enabled.  When playing with the hard spirecraft/golems minor factions, the AI gets lots of spirecraft and golems to play with in their exo waves.  Did I mention that hard mode also adds an extra exo-wave per hour per hard minor faction enabled?

Also, the hard AI type Golemite has golems that are more or less fully functional on several of their planets.  Another hard AI type also adds spirecraft in their normal waves, I think, though I do not recall it right now.

I was using Hard spirecraft/golems. I didn't see a single major ship in the 4 big waves that were sent at me.  I'm sure I would have noticed if a golem came, those don't exactly appear in your systems without some serious poo poo hitting the fan. Is it just up to chance whether one comes and I got lucky? I saw the message saying things like "16 major ships (x FP) are incoming", but if there was anything big it died before I noticed it.

Spirecraft Implosion Artillery: For some reason I'm having problems getting them to work against the AI fortresses. They should easily rip it apart, having 25k range vs 20k. But whenever I tell them to attack they either bug out and move too far away to fire (if I have Auto-kiting on) or move too close and get instantly mauled by the fortress. Eventually I just gave up on trying to make my 15 strong force of these work and just had a cursed golem pummel away at the fortresses for 5 mins.
Some ships, especially AI ships, have radar dampening effects that prevents you from simply sniping them from out of their range.  Implosion artillery are best for hitting high-hp units or structures while being covered by other units that take the hits.

Besides, you're probably better off using bombers on fortresses as bombers are practically immune to flame waves.

Does radar dampening affect other ships in the system? I was under the impression that it only worked on the ship itself that had radar dampening, and fortresses don't. Bombers are nice but sometimes you have to deal with ion cannons  >:(

Starships in general: How viable are they as primary force in lieu of massed starfighters? I was afraid to invest in them overly much since they can't take advantage of the advanced factory to massively increase my standing forces. Knowledge constraints would seem to make 400 fighters vs 2 starships a pretty easy choice.

Starships are not meant to operate alone, with maybe the exception of the raid starship.  They're meant to complement your fleet.  The knowledge unlock ships allow you to more of these starships that can make your fleet so much more powerful.  I personally prefer having large amounts of small weak ships that can be easily replaced, but when I have surplus resources, I often invest in a fleet starship or two to multiply the attack power of my entire fleet by 1.6.
I don't normally get starship knowledge unlocks as I primarily focus on my economy rather than my military.

Yes, I definitely lean towards economic builds as well, and since I had munitions boosters the fleet starships seemed mostly unneeded. I had two primary groups most of the game, 1 with all capships that was primarily offensive (golems/spirecraft) and another that was defensive or supplemental offensive for non-ion cannon systems (all starfighters). Unfortunately paying knowledge for Mk 3 starships just doesn't seem attractive when compared to buying Mk 3 AND Mk 4 starfighters at the same time.


Hope that helped!

It has  :)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 07:40:59 pm by Lemon »

Offline Nalgas

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Re: Finished first game, questions on stuff
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2011, 03:10:46 pm »
I was using Hard spirecraft/golems. I didn't see a single major ship in the 4 big waves that were sent at me.  I'm sure I would have noticed if a golem came, those don't exactly appear in your systems without some serious poo poo hitting the fan. Is it just up to chance whether one comes and I got lucky? I saw the message saying things like "16 major ships (x FP) are incoming", but if there was anything big it died before I noticed it.

The stuff that gets thrown at you in those scales up with both time and AIP, so if you're finishing the game quickly at low AIP, you're probably not going to get the really nasty stuff.  It is also partly up to chance how it divides up the total amount of firepower it has.  It's usually a moderately large lead ship with a bunch of escorts, but there's also a possibility (20% or something?) of it dumping extra points into sending a scarier lead ship.

Offline Lemon

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Re: Finished first game, questions on stuff
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2011, 07:53:07 pm »
I see. I'm guessing that with the Dyson Sphere handling 95% of my defense needs I was free to expand and kill off the AI much more quickly than I should have been able to otherwise.

Is getting that many ally ships from the Dyson Sphere normal? Doesn't seem right that you can just get lucky and instantly have literally 1000s of firepower worth of ships for free helping you out. Seems like most other powerful things the random map generator tends to keep away from your starting system, except the odd Golem that you can't use early anyway because it requires a boatload of money.

Offline x4000

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Re: Finished first game, questions on stuff
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2011, 10:52:59 pm »
The Dyson Sphere is a minor faction that, when used properly, makes things a bit easier -- that's also true of, say, the Human Resistance Fighters.  Other minor factions make it mildly to majorly harder, so this isn't anything unusual.

In some cases when you have a really bottle-necked area of the map, then the dyson sphere can provide an unusually sharp advantage, which it sounds like was the case here.  When the gatlings don't have an easy outlet into AI space, they'll patrol more and wind up protecting you better.

Hope that helps!
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Offline Lemon

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Re: Finished first game, questions on stuff
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2011, 12:43:11 am »
Maybe it was a bug, because the Dyson ships never once initiated offensive action from what I could see. Pretty much all of my worlds were a continuous strip that offered dozens of nearby AI worlds, including an AI world directly connected to the Dyson Sphere system.

On another note that you reminded me of x4000, the Neinzul Roaming Enclaves were a PITA... when I attacked them. For some reason they would, about half the time, enter the system and just sit there passively. Dyson Gatlings would ignore these, and the only time they seemed to fight back was when I sent ships after them. Another bug?

EDIT: Wait, do minor factions not only take on the difficulty level of the first AI, but also the type? If so, it was a Shield Ninny in the first slot. This might make all minor factions behave completely defensively and, in the Dyson's case, make them pile up on player planets indefinitely?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 12:47:24 am by Lemon »

Offline Nalgas

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Re: Finished first game, questions on stuff
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2011, 01:46:33 am »
On another note that you reminded me of x4000, the Neinzul Roaming Enclaves were a PITA... when I attacked them. For some reason they would, about half the time, enter the system and just sit there passively. Dyson Gatlings would ignore these, and the only time they seemed to fight back was when I sent ships after them. Another bug?

That's a feature, not a bug.  They can be friendly to the player, friendly to the AI, or hostile to everyone, chosen at random.  I really liked them at first when the first couple took up residence in my systems and fought against the AI with me.  Then I stopped liking them so much when nearly every single one after that tried to kill me in my sleep.  Heh.

Offline x4000

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Re: Finished first game, questions on stuff
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2011, 09:28:42 am »
Maybe it was a bug, because the Dyson ships never once initiated offensive action from what I could see. Pretty much all of my worlds were a continuous strip that offered dozens of nearby AI worlds, including an AI world directly connected to the Dyson Sphere system.

Are you playing on 5.000 or the latest beta?  I think that we might have changed that some since 5.0.  At any rate, the latest beta is definitely recommended for them.

On another note that you reminded me of x4000, the Neinzul Roaming Enclaves were a PITA... when I attacked them. For some reason they would, about half the time, enter the system and just sit there passively. Dyson Gatlings would ignore these, and the only time they seemed to fight back was when I sent ships after them. Another bug?

They could have been friendly to you, as Naglas notes, but actually one minor faction never attacks another.  They only attack either the AIs or you.  So if there were no other targets, then most likely they were just waiting around for someone to shoot to show up. ;)

EDIT: Wait, do minor factions not only take on the difficulty level of the first AI, but also the type? If so, it was a Shield Ninny in the first slot. This might make all minor factions behave completely defensively and, in the Dyson's case, make them pile up on player planets indefinitely?

The minor factions don't use the normal AI routines at all, although a very few things that are part of the main game logic might carry over.  But in the case of stuff that is allied to you or neutral to you, those actually use the playerID of the first human player instead of the first AI, so that definitely couldn't be a factor there.  They still use the difficulty of the first AI for decision-making purposes, but only allied-to-AI ships are actually in the slot of the AI.
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Offline Lemon

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Re: Finished first game, questions on stuff
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2011, 11:45:17 pm »
Alright, I'm at the newest beta. Will see how it goes...