Author Topic: Favourite Extra Unit  (Read 8861 times)

Offline Giegue

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Re: Favourite Extra Unit
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2010, 10:26:21 pm »
I liek teh eye bots. EYE SEE J00! oh, that would make a great line for my insanity AI idea...

Offline Nihilus

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Re: Favourite Extra Unit
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2010, 08:49:34 am »
Eyebots for me too. I love the way those huge dangerous turret blobs mysteriously disappear in an instant.

Offline superking

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Re: Favourite Extra Unit
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2010, 09:24:04 am »
just playing through with sentinel frigates now

they make garrisoning enemy worlds about 9000 times easier, currently with a 1000:1 kill ratio lol

rubikscube

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Re: Favourite Extra Unit
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2010, 06:20:29 pm »
well, when you get to that ratio, basically means it never dies unless you are uncareful

Offline Dragon

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Re: Favourite Extra Unit
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2010, 01:54:45 am »
While it is handy to know what people's favourite units are, when I read this thread I was more looking for reasons why people would choose one unit over another.  Like, for example, looking at the starting screen for a map, and trying to decide what to choose, I might see something like this:
Laser Gatling: 30 damage, Laser ammo (???), fire rate 1, range 6000, hp 6,500, shields 120, speed 24, ship cap 279.
Infiltrator: 40 damage, Flare ammo (???), fire rate 1.5, range 3,600, hp 7,200, shields 500, speed 26, ship cap 279. Engine Damage 3, Fires through Shields

Now looking at that, and doing the math on the damage, the Infiltrators do slightly less dps, doing 26 instead of 30, but they also do engine damage and fire through shields.  They have a bit less range.  Okay, so they seem like a better choice from the weapon point of view, although, I don't know what the ammo difference means, and it doesn't say anywhere what either ammo type means.  Moving on, I look at the hp, shields, and speed, and the Infiltrators win again.  So now I wonder why anyone would choose Laser Gatling over Infiltrator.

But wait, it gets better.  Being a "noob" that I'm pretending to be, I look at some more ships to compare to these other two, and I see:
Raider: 200 damage, Laser ammo (same as gatlings), fire rate 2, range 7,000, hp 8,000, shields 150, speed 36, and ship cap 250.  Immune to tractor beams and mines.

That looks just like the laser gatlings...  Except better in pretty much every way.  100dps instead of 30, more range, hp, shields, speed, and some specials.  The ship cap is 89.6% as large.  Meaning that at ship cap, you could have 8,370dps with gatlings, and 25,000 damage with Raiders.  33.4% of their damage, and over all weaker?  Does the difference in cost really matter to people all that much?  Since the change in advanced stations, I tend to max out my resources very quickly, even with over 5 ship types at level 4, and three starship lines fully researched.

300 C/M versus 150 C/M.  Twice the cost, but three times the effectiveness?  Am I missing something that makes the Gatlings good?

Out of the random sample of ships I looked at, the one with the highest DPS (excluding ships Z bombers and Frigs) was the Teleport Battle Station, with a DPS of 800 per ship.  Compared to laser gatlings 30.  Sure, they only have a ship cap of 25, but at cap they do 20,000 DPS.  A lot more then gatlings.  But different ammo type, so I go to compare with something closer.
Teleport Station: 400 x8 damage, Minor Electric Ammo, reload 4, range 4000 (but they teleport, so does this matter?), hp 14,000, shields 600, ship cap 25.
Teleport Raider: 100 damage, Minor Electric Ammo, reload 2, range 7,000 (again, does this matter?), hp 2,000, shields 150, ship cap 250.

Looking at that, they do 50 dps.  But you can have 10 times as many of them.  So that 12,500 dps.  Still lower then the stations.  They also only have 2,000 hp, which means that at cap, they have more, but it also means that things that do AoE damage will utterly destroy them very quickly.  Their salvo damage is also lower, so they can't just jump in, do 80,000 damage to a single target and then jump out, having killed it.  They have to stick around for 4 shots, so 3 seconds, before the target will die.  So not only are they weaker, they get shot at more.

So, speaking as someone that is very mathimaticly minded, and likes numbers that make sense, I go to the forums to find out why people would choose gatlings over raiders, or teleport raiders over teleport staions, and this is all I find.

I see things like Eye Bots, that are listed as shell ammo, but also as "excellent against turrets", and I think "fighters are shell ammo, and they suck at turrets, what's the difference here?".  When I load up a quick game with them, their listed damage against turrets is 32,000 per shot.  Fighters do 300.  Both use the same ammo.  Now I'm even more confused....

Offline RCIX

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Re: Favourite Extra Unit
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2010, 05:06:36 am »
You'll quickly learn that straight DPS is a bad measure in AI war. Each unit gets a list of multipliers matched to ship/station types, which multiply the damage against that target. This list is tweaked to carve out a role for ships e.g. Infiltrators are set to absolutely toast defenses, while laser gatlings are much better against general fleet ships.

The ammo type is mostly used for graphics, though certain types (namely missiles and dark matter) have counter units which cover stuff in their range from fire of those ammo types. Beam weapon types are what it says on the tin (beams not projectiles).

That help? :)
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Offline vonduus

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Re: Favourite Extra Unit
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2010, 07:54:43 am »
I choose parasites a lot, as they are a good and cheap way to get yourself a big fleet early. If I choose anything else, it is mostly some Zenith ship. Because, eeh... - I don't really know. Because they have cool names, perhaps?
If you miss the alert, you die. If you get the alert, you die. Summa summarum: You die. (Kierkegaard on CPAs)

Offline superking

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Re: Favourite Extra Unit
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2010, 09:22:50 am »
While it is handy to know what people's favourite units are, when I read this thread I was more looking for reasons why people would choose one unit over another.  Like, for example, looking at the starting screen for a map, and trying to decide what to choose, I might see something like this:
Laser Gatling: 30 damage, Laser ammo (???), fire rate 1, range 6000, hp 6,500, shields 120, speed 24, ship cap 279.
Infiltrator: 40 damage, Flare ammo (???), fire rate 1.5, range 3,600, hp 7,200, shields 500, speed 26, ship cap 279. Engine Damage 3, Fires through Shields

Now looking at that, and doing the math on the damage, the Infiltrators do slightly less dps, doing 26 instead of 30, but they also do engine damage and fire through shields.  They have a bit less range.  Okay, so they seem like a better choice from the weapon point of view, although, I don't know what the ammo difference means, and it doesn't say anywhere what either ammo type means.  Moving on, I look at the hp, shields, and speed, and the Infiltrators win again.  So now I wonder why anyone would choose Laser Gatling over Infiltrator.

But wait, it gets better.  Being a "noob" that I'm pretending to be, I look at some more ships to compare to these other two, and I see:
Raider: 200 damage, Laser ammo (same as gatlings), fire rate 2, range 7,000, hp 8,000, shields 150, speed 36, and ship cap 250.  Immune to tractor beams and mines.

That looks just like the laser gatlings...  Except better in pretty much every way.  100dps instead of 30, more range, hp, shields, speed, and some specials.  The ship cap is 89.6% as large.  Meaning that at ship cap, you could have 8,370dps with gatlings, and 25,000 damage with Raiders.  33.4% of their damage, and over all weaker?  Does the difference in cost really matter to people all that much?  Since the change in advanced stations, I tend to max out my resources very quickly, even with over 5 ship types at level 4, and three starship lines fully researched.

300 C/M versus 150 C/M.  Twice the cost, but three times the effectiveness?  Am I missing something that makes the Gatlings good?

Out of the random sample of ships I looked at, the one with the highest DPS (excluding ships Z bombers and Frigs) was the Teleport Battle Station, with a DPS of 800 per ship.  Compared to laser gatlings 30.  Sure, they only have a ship cap of 25, but at cap they do 20,000 DPS.  A lot more then gatlings.  But different ammo type, so I go to compare with something closer.
Teleport Station: 400 x8 damage, Minor Electric Ammo, reload 4, range 4000 (but they teleport, so does this matter?), hp 14,000, shields 600, ship cap 25.
Teleport Raider: 100 damage, Minor Electric Ammo, reload 2, range 7,000 (again, does this matter?), hp 2,000, shields 150, ship cap 250.

Looking at that, they do 50 dps.  But you can have 10 times as many of them.  So that 12,500 dps.  Still lower then the stations.  They also only have 2,000 hp, which means that at cap, they have more, but it also means that things that do AoE damage will utterly destroy them very quickly.  Their salvo damage is also lower, so they can't just jump in, do 80,000 damage to a single target and then jump out, having killed it.  They have to stick around for 4 shots, so 3 seconds, before the target will die.  So not only are they weaker, they get shot at more.

So, speaking as someone that is very mathimaticly minded, and likes numbers that make sense, I go to the forums to find out why people would choose gatlings over raiders, or teleport raiders over teleport staions, and this is all I find.

I see things like Eye Bots, that are listed as shell ammo, but also as "excellent against turrets", and I think "fighters are shell ammo, and they suck at turrets, what's the difference here?".  When I load up a quick game with them, their listed damage against turrets is 32,000 per shot.  Fighters do 300.  Both use the same ammo.  Now I'm even more confused....

Its best to think of ammo-type purely in terms of immunities- shell weapons have nothing in common except that shell-immune units take no damage from them

@ statistical comparisons, there is no question that some ship types are better than others, although this is blurred somewhat by the rock/paper/scissors of damage bonuses- but bear in mind the shipcaps and unlocking generally means that you will use all the ship types you possess, so cost for cost there is less requirement for ships to be perfectly balanced against eachother. in your example, infiltrators iirc have less benefical bonus damages vs bombers etc, although I agree they are the more useful unit

teleport battlestations are certainly a little powerful, but people seem to like them that way  ;D
teleport raiders have been subject to a question mark for some time (their ammo-type makes them poor at raiding but effective defenders) and imo could do with a reboot

Offline Dragon

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Re: Favourite Extra Unit
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2010, 11:34:15 am »
Ahhhh, and I had been thinking that anything bombers were weak against shell ammo, frigates against energy bomb, and fighters weak to missile ammo.  I'm going to have to rethink some of my game playing.  I didn't see any wiki pages about this sort of thing, but this would be the perfect thing for the wiki.  And maybe a listing of unit types, and what they are good at, and how much their damage multiplier is against a specific type of unit.  Or what they are good at defending against.  Something like that.  I would be more then happy to contribute to helping that, but seeing as I had the whole ammo thing wrong, I don't know if I should.... ;)

I also just noticed that when you mouse over a target it says how much it will hit for, which I suppose would answer my questions to some extent, although, only for ships that I have....  Tractor Beam turrets seem to be resistant to just about everything, unlike other turrets, which I guess is why they last so much longer then the other turret types...

Offline zebramatt

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Re: Favourite Extra Unit
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2010, 06:13:30 am »
Autobombs!
 ;D

Offline UberJumper

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Re: Favourite Extra Unit
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2010, 10:33:00 am »
Teleport Battle Stations:

1. They are absolutely amazing for early defense, throw nice group of them into FRD and they will dominate most early AI threats
2. They are pretty effective against starships
3. Rapid defense
4. Raiding, have a nasty station you want to pop but raid starships can't make it? Teleport battle stations in a big group will one shot special forces/command centers easily
5. Trying to keep them alive? Macro them, attack -> move to edge of screen (missiles/bullets will instantly disappear) -> repeat

In someways i think they are a little too powerful.

Offline superking

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Re: Favourite Extra Unit
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2010, 10:38:27 am »
highest DPS/shipcap ratio iirc

Offline SonicTitan

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Re: Favourite Extra Unit
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2010, 11:02:02 am »
So far I'm going to have to go with Raptors. Insanely fast and cloaked, and AMAZING for infrastructure raiding. If you drop your main fleet onto a planet beforehand, you can bring in a capped fleet of Raptors while the turrets are distracted and mop up a whole compliment of guard posts/command stations/data centers/etc. Being as fast as they are they're also pretty effin good on defense too.

Offline Sizzle

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Re: Favourite Extra Unit
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2010, 02:14:25 pm »
<snip> ...If you drop your main fleet onto a planet beforehand, you can bring in a capped fleet of Raptors while the turrets are distracted and mop up a whole compliment of guard posts/command stations/data centers/etc. </snip>

Can you clarify on that?  I've not seen raptors yet.   Hang the main fleet out on the AI planet somewhere and raid the guardposts with the raptors?

If you mean attacking the AI turret ball with the main fleet, won't it take out the guard station there anyhow?

Offline sil

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Re: Favourite Extra Unit
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2010, 11:15:03 am »
Teleport Battle Stations:

1. They are absolutely amazing for early defense, throw nice group of them into FRD and they will dominate most early AI threats
2. They are pretty effective against starships
3. Rapid defense
4. Raiding, have a nasty station you want to pop but raid starships can't make it? Teleport battle stations in a big group will one shot special forces/command centers easily
5. Trying to keep them alive? Macro them, attack -> move to edge of screen (missiles/bullets will instantly disappear) -> repeat

In someways i think they are a little too powerful.

I've mentioned this on a different forum, I find it very hard to play now without having telestations, at least in single player(haven't done multiplayer).

My standard planet capture tactic: send in fleet, send in stations, insta pop enemy comm station, mop up. Clearing planets of guard posts/warp gates is similarly trivial with them. Defending a 10-20 planet empire on an 80 planet map and too lazy to build turret balls? Tele stations will let you do it. Hell, I've defended pockets of planets with hostile MkI/II worlds in between them and repeatedly hopped my stations in between the action. And they make Ion cannon/Mass driver/you name it capturable planets a boon for you, guaranteed every time(barring a handful of AI types). Just jump in, pop the station, engi-speed build your own and presto! enjoy your new ion cannon. Totally bypassing enemy ships/turrets/whatever.

I definitely like playing with them, to the point where it's impossible for me to justify picking up a different bonus ship and they shape the way I play the game to the point where it feels like they break it. I can't think of any ship that I use so universally for whatever I need doing. They're the go to ship for killing anything that isn't immune to minor electric/has a forcefield around it. Defense, offense, raiding they do it all and they do it in seconds.

They might be more balanced in multiplayer given that their cap stays the same but the AI has more ships but in single player they are just absurd, they're low risk to use(in the only important sense, ie. time between losing a cap of them to a minefield and having that cap of them back on the frontline), extremely time and resource efficient, and their flaw of frailty can pretty much be ignored against a huge array of ships just by doing some decent micro(or bringing a repair station in system).

Not sure how you would fix them without breaking them(or ruining the extraordinary satisfaction you get from learning to play them well). One thing I would like is for AIs of all types to learn to build forcefield barriers or minefields around command stations if these targets keep getting popped by teleporters. Or more AIs should use grav drills, or a new type of building that just prevents teleportation. Even against Grav Driller/Mine Enthusiast, which theoretically counter tele stations pretty hard, they still make astonishing defensive units for non grav driller worlds(and defending grav drill worlds with riot starships is so easy-mode you don't need the extra oomph there anyway).

Maybe the answer is just to accept that AI War with tele stations is a completely different experience than AI War without them and go from there.