Author Topic: Two questions: Permanent mines and defending a growing empire  (Read 1931 times)

Offline TheSilverHammer

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Two questions: Permanent mines and defending a growing empire
« on: February 15, 2010, 11:35:27 am »
1:
In the 3.0 version of the game, cleanup drones says they can clean up permanent mines.  I have a star where I have killed the command station and I have 10 cleanup drones in the system.  They refuse to cleanup these mines.  Why is this?

2:
As the game progresses, I get more and more "fronts" and it becomes harder and harder to defend.  I end up trying to spend lots of research on turrets and whatnot, but still it always seems to become unmanageable.  It is also very hard to defend a system without a FF protecting my base (you only get 15).  The AI can always throw a few 100 guys through a gate at my once in a while and I just cant afford all those tractor beams everywhere to handle this, not to mention the local firepower to deal with a large group of enemy ships before they blow the tractor turrets away.  Then there is the problem of ships that ignore tractor beams and will just own your command station if there is no FF around it.

Offline x4000

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Re: Two questions: Permanent mines and defending a growing empire
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2010, 12:52:00 pm »
1:
In the 3.0 version of the game, cleanup drones says they can clean up permanent mines.  I have a star where I have killed the command station and I have 10 cleanup drones in the system.  They refuse to cleanup these mines.  Why is this?

This only functions on planets that you control yourself.  Note in the description of the cleanup drone itself:  "Also able to dismantle enemy mines on allied planets."

2:
As the game progresses, I get more and more "fronts" and it becomes harder and harder to defend.  I end up trying to spend lots of research on turrets and whatnot, but still it always seems to become unmanageable.  It is also very hard to defend a system without a FF protecting my base (you only get 15).  The AI can always throw a few 100 guys through a gate at my once in a while and I just cant afford all those tractor beams everywhere to handle this, not to mention the local firepower to deal with a large group of enemy ships before they blow the tractor turrets away.  Then there is the problem of ships that ignore tractor beams and will just own your command station if there is no FF around it.

This is definitely the challenge of the game, but it can be very straightforward to manage if you are careful about it.  Here are a few tips, which you can use individually or interchangeably:

Small Profiles Are Easy To Defend
Try to keep as small a profile as possible (as few hostile wormholes as possible, in other words). On certain map styles -- hubs and grid, for instance -- this can be very much harder.  On others, like Vines, Trees, and Snake, it is trivially easy.  Realistic and Simple are a good balance of the two.  If there are fewer possible ingress points, then obviously your empire is vastly simpler to defend.

Large Profiles Require A Variety of Tactics To Defend
If you have a larger profile, then you have three distinct kinds of worry at each of those wormholes:
a. Incoming Waves
b. Special Forces ships
c. "Threat" ships that come from from a variety of sources (ships that were freed during battle, during a Cross Planet Attack, from Alarm Posts, or similar).

Dealing with (a) is by far the simplest, simply do gate raids on the neighboring planets and kill the warp gates to prevent the waves from coming to you at the planets that you don't want them to arrive at.  Depending on the AI type you are facing, the waves might be the primary threat against you (Raider types, and other aggressive types in particular), or might be relatively inconsequential (particularly all the turtles, which don't even use waves).

Dealing with (b) is harder, but still something that can be well managed unless you are facing against a Special Forces Captain (and even then, it can be done).  Here is a detailed explanation of ways to mitigate these.

Dealing with (c) is the hardest thing of all, because there simply is no way to completely block ships that are "free" in this sense.  They have the same movement abilities and freedom of decision making that you and your ships do.  So if you could go through systems to an AI planet, they can similarly come through to your side of things.  If you are overmatching the AI on one side of the galaxy, their ships might retreat and then come back at you from the complete opposite side of the galaxy.  This is another good reason for keeping a smaller profile.

Take Only What You Need
In general, AI War is a game about guerrilla tactics and not wanton capturing of the entire galaxy.  If you try to capture everything, you are meant to lose.  This can be circumvented with a lot of care and precision, but it is a harder game.  Here is a great topic about minimizing the AI progress and about target valuation.

Don't Try To Permanently Hold Every Planet You Take
Sometimes you need to take a planet that is way off in order to capture an Advanced Research Station, or something similar to that.  Generally once you get your Advanced Research Station, then research all the knowledge on that planet, there are only two benefits to holding that planet:

1. Gaining whatever resources it has.
2. Providing supply to that and adjacent planets, which could be useful for a variety of reasons including staging further attacks in that area, knowledge raiding, and similar.

On the other hand, holding a planet like that way out in the middle of nowhere also comes with a variety of nontrivial drawbacks:

1. You're probably surrounded, and mitigating that will take way more AI Progress increases than it is probably worth.
2. Long-term, you'll probably spend more resources (and valuable ship cap of turrets, etc) on this planet than it is worth.
3. Going along with #2, basically you're spreading yourself thinner and thinner over the galaxy, and the benefits may really not be worth it after you get the things you were there to capture and the knowledge from that (and possibly from adjacent) planets.

Do note that certain immobile ships, like Fabricators and Rebelling Human Colonies and Advanced Factories, are designed specifically to make you have to potentially defend outposts like this.  Choose wisely when deciding if that is worth the ships you get, sometimes there is somewhere easier to defend where you can capture something almost as good.  Everything is give-and-take, except when you get lucky.

Try To Form A Resource Core
A common strategy that a lot of players use is to basically build up a set of core planets that will form the backbone of their economy, and which provide some buffer protection to their home planet.  If you can make it so that there ideally only one, possibly two, ingress points into this core zone, then you can just focus a lot of defenses there, along with maybe a few staggered defenses for if any AI ships do manage to break through that front door.  Then you're freeing up your resources and ship caps for offensive purposes, or for defending the occasional lone planet you might take and hold either permanently or for a shorter while.

Hope that helps!  And, yes, this is going in the wiki, because it's a really good question -- thanks! :)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 12:57:51 pm by x4000 »
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Offline TheSilverHammer

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Re: Two questions: Permanent mines and defending a growing empire
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2010, 01:42:04 pm »
Thanks for the info.  The problem I have with the perma mines planet is that the planet I want to cap (which has an adv sci vessel ) has the perma mines blocking a system I control from the one I want to cap.  The way I took the system was to fly through some hostile systems in a round-about way to take out the command center on the perma mine system.  Now I need to get a constructor to that perma mine system, which will be problematic unless these constructors are immune to mines.  I am not at home so I can not check this fact ATM.   I may end having to have a fleet escort some through some hostile systems, which would not be too fun.

With respect to defense:  Do you recommend taking useless planets simply to consolidate a defensive line?  I have never actually won a game at level 7 difficulty, so I never have gotten past the sprawling empire defense problem yet.  I am leery of just nabbing planets because when it is late in the game I may find getting to the AI bases may require me to cap a bunch of planets and thus pushing my progress up a lot.  I would then think that I made the unrecoverable mistake of taking planets I didn't need to.

With regards to gate raiding, I do have a question because this is still unclear from the tutorial and the wiki.  Lets say I have planets A, B, and C.  All three regularly get attacked.   If I gate-raid all the connecting planets to 'A', will A no longer get attacked?  Similarly if I do the same for B, then I can guarantee that only C will be the "front" of the war?

Offline snow2.0

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Re: Two questions: Permanent mines and defending a growing empire
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2010, 01:56:50 pm »
Gates are sources for wave type attacks. If there is no gate next to a planet you own, the AI can't sent a  wave to attack it. If there's no gate adjacent to your planet, waves may be sent to further-off planets without being announced to you. I'm not sure if both AIs require a warpgate next to you or if one is enough to prevent this.

Other attacks can still come from this source, unless blocked in other ways (i.e. killing off all special forces guard posts that way)
I dont think there's any way to prevent a cross-planet-attack or part of one.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 01:59:01 pm by snow2.0 »

Offline x4000

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Re: Two questions: Permanent mines and defending a growing empire
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2010, 02:44:52 pm »
Thanks for the info.  The problem I have with the perma mines planet is that the planet I want to cap (which has an adv sci vessel ) has the perma mines blocking a system I control from the one I want to cap.  The way I took the system was to fly through some hostile systems in a round-about way to take out the command center on the perma mine system.  Now I need to get a constructor to that perma mine system, which will be problematic unless these constructors are immune to mines.  I am not at home so I can not check this fact ATM.   I may end having to have a fleet escort some through some hostile systems, which would not be too fun.

This is pretty much the point of transports, is to get your fleets and such past minefields like this.  Colony ships are also immune to mines.

With respect to defense:  Do you recommend taking useless planets simply to consolidate a defensive line?

Definitely.  I do this all the time.  Or, alternatively, you can just neuter the planet if you think that will be enough, or you could just clear it out but not capture it if you don't want it to be a source of new incoming waves if it borders many planets.  But usually it's nice to capture to get the resource income, if you need it.

I have never actually won a game at level 7 difficulty, so I never have gotten past the sprawling empire defense problem yet.  I am leery of just nabbing planets because when it is late in the game I may find getting to the AI bases may require me to cap a bunch of planets and thus pushing my progress up a lot.  I would then think that I made the unrecoverable mistake of taking planets I didn't need to.

Well, this  is always somewhat recoverable -- take a look at your mission list to see how many data centers are in your current campaign.  Usually it's around 12-20, but if you've already killed some or are playing on a smaller map, it might be fewer.  Each one of those basically counteracts the taking of one planet, and they are pretty quick to kill overall if you can get right up to them, so doing some deep raids for them can counteract more than a few mistakes with regard to taking planets.  The more costly mistakes are misuse of golems, warheads, losing captive human settlements, etc.  One captive human settlement loss can eat up the benefit of fully 5 of those.

This is another case where having scout intel and advance plans can really help. What planets do you think you will want to take at your final push to the AI?  How hard does that look likely to be based on their distribution of planets?  How hard is that going to make things based on what planets you put on alert during your final push?  It's always impossible to plan for the unknown, so getting a bit better visibility onto those final planets is something that can be pretty important for knowing how much leeway you have.

In general, I guess I try not to take more than 10-14 planets that are "just for me" in terms of economy and consolidation and (hopefully) also some ARSes.  Then I take another 3-5 for the point of making strategic acquisitions (advanced factories, ARSes, fabricators, golems, etc).  Then I might take about 5-8 for purely strategic purposes, as launching points against AI strongholds, and a kind of distributed path across the galaxy.  In the end, that gets me to my 20-30 that I take in all from my 80 planet games.

With regards to gate raiding, I do have a question because this is still unclear from the tutorial and the wiki.  Lets say I have planets A, B, and C.  All three regularly get attacked.   If I gate-raid all the connecting planets to 'A', will A no longer get attacked?  Similarly if I do the same for B, then I can guarantee that only C will be the "front" of the war?

Yes, precisely it!  And if you destroy all those adjacent to C:  http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_No_Warning_On_Waves%3F
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Offline TheSilverHammer

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Re: Two questions: Permanent mines and defending a growing empire
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2010, 03:53:31 pm »
Ok, so even the regular non-wave attacks (maybe there isn't such a thing, I forget if there is ever an attack initiated against a planet without a wave) will not come to planets without adjacent warp gates?  Barring of course when you piss off the AI by killing a command center and they counter attack.  How about cross-planet attacks?  

This neutering of planets is new to me.  I have been reading up on it.  Before id just kill everything in a system i didn't want bothering me.  However, from what I understand, if I leave the command center, but kill all the guard posts AND the special forces things, then that system will NEVER gain any mobile forces, right?  The only mobile forces will be ones passing through from other sectors, correct?

In this case, I also need to kill the warp gate?  The AI will rebuild turrets, so if I fly through the system a lot Ill have to deal with that, but never mobile enemies, right?

This is all really great info, thanks.

I have another problem I have had on occasion.  I find this planet near my home system near the beginning of the game.  It is a tier 3 or 4 planet and has something I want, like an advanced science facility.  However I can not take it for a long time.  Later on, I got a good number of tier 3 units and a fleet of like 2k+ units.  Now this planet has like 4k+ units.  

The only way I can deal with this is to get into a giant slug fest, and typically I can't keep up.  I lose a lot of ships and by the time I rebuild them all (metal / crystal income is my bottle neck ) the planet regenerates most if not all its lost units back.   So you have this big fat planet loads of MK IIIs and some IVs, how do you take it?

Oh, Planet defense again:  What turret is good against armor units?  I see some turrets are "weak" against them, but others are just "no comment".  However thse "no comment" turrets refuse to fire against these armor units attacking me.  Only the sniper turrets shoot.  My MLS I, II, Basic turret I, II, and Missile turrets simply do not "shoot" at these armor guys.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 03:57:08 pm by TheSilverHammer »

Offline x4000

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Re: Two questions: Permanent mines and defending a growing empire
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2010, 05:49:48 pm »
Ok, so even the regular non-wave attacks (maybe there isn't such a thing, I forget if there is ever an attack initiated against a planet without a wave) will not come to planets without adjacent warp gates?  Barring of course when you piss off the AI by killing a command center and they counter attack.  How about cross-planet attacks?

There are only three cases, which I outlined in detail above.  Special Forces, Waves, and Threat (which includes CPAs).  The only one affected in any way by the warp gates are Waves, which have the timer.  Anything else is either special forces or Threat, which you can't affect in that way.  To clarify this further, I've added another wiki topic on this, because I think one was warranted.

This neutering of planets is new to me.  I have been reading up on it.  Before id just kill everything in a system i didn't want bothering me.  However, from what I understand, if I leave the command center, but kill all the guard posts AND the special forces things, then that system will NEVER gain any mobile forces, right?  The only mobile forces will be ones passing through from other sectors, correct?

Well, it will gain some more guards, but to a lower cap.  Those guards will only become free/threat during a CPA, nothing else.  So that makes their risk exceedingly low.  And if you simply kill the special forces guard post, that is all that is needed to prevent them from getting any more special forces ships (which I think you were calling mobile forces, the guys that wander around).

In this case, I also need to kill the warp gate?  The AI will rebuild turrets, so if I fly through the system a lot Ill have to deal with that, but never mobile enemies, right?

The AI will also build regular mobile ships at the wormholes, too.  What you've affected by "neutering" the planet is keeping their local ship cap lower, not affecting the composition of what they can build.  You also limit their build points to the command station and the wormholes themselves.  If your concern is just the special forces ships, then all you need to do is raid the special forces guard post -- to lower the likelihood of little batches of guys roaming into your adjacent planets, for instance.  And if your concern is waves, then the warp gate is the only thing of concern.  Neutering makes travel somewhat easier, and keeps the number of ships correspondingly lower so that there is less risk of that planet being a major part of a dangerous CPA from an unexpected direction.  Neutering is probably the least useful out of those tactics, in my opinion, but it is still quite commonly of great use.

This is all really great info, thanks.

My pleasure!

I have another problem I have had on occasion.  I find this planet near my home system near the beginning of the game.  It is a tier 3 or 4 planet and has something I want, like an advanced science facility.  However I can not take it for a long time.  Later on, I got a good number of tier 3 units and a fleet of like 2k+ units.  Now this planet has like 4k+ units.  

The only way I can deal with this is to get into a giant slug fest, and typically I can't keep up.  I lose a lot of ships and by the time I rebuild them all (metal / crystal income is my bottle neck ) the planet regenerates most if not all its lost units back.   So you have this big fat planet loads of MK IIIs and some IVs, how do you take it?

This is another great question.  I've added a very lengthy response to this on the wiki:  http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Taking_High-Level_Planets

Oh, Planet defense again:  What turret is good against armor units?  I see some turrets are "weak" against them, but others are just "no comment".  However thse "no comment" turrets refuse to fire against these armor units attacking me.  Only the sniper turrets shoot.  My MLS I, II, Basic turret I, II, and Missile turrets simply do not "shoot" at these armor guys.

Most of those no comment ones probably don't have enough range to actually hit the armor units through their shields, or fire shot types that the armor units are immune to.  Generally speaking, there aren't a lot of turrets that are very good against armor units, which is sort of the point of the armor units.  I can't remember, but laser turrets or lightning turrets might do well against them, but I would not swear to it.  Best way to get the detailed stats on performance about specific ships is to load up a game, hit F3 so that the debug info is showing, and then hit Ctrl+Alt+F8.

That will shut down the game and dump a variety of Excel xml files into a Data directory under your Game Data Location folder (seen in a textbox at the bottom of your Settings window in the game).  That has detailed stats on the various everything, so you can figure out at least which turrets are least-bad against armor units.  One idea is to use spider turrets to disable their engines, since clearly sniper turrets are doing a great job.  Otherwise, I think it'd be bombers or anti-armor ships or similar.
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