Carriers Gone Wild

[ErictheRed]

Hey everyone; I'm new to the forum but have been playing AI war off and on for while.  I have all expansions and my current game is in a bit of a rough spot.  Here is the situation:

7/7 AI plots: Speed Racer/Stealth Master
AI Progress around 330
I have 18 planets
Dyson Sphere faction enabled
All expansions enabled
I choose 2 homeworlds
I have 2 golems, Hive and Botnet

I can post screenshots of the galaxy map later to better show my position but briefly, I have done much warp raiding and neutering, focusing my knowledge mostly defensively on turrets and tachyon turrets to protect against the stealth waves.  I most recently cleared out my backyard of previous neutered AI planets close to my homeworlds to get more knowledge since I located an advanced factory along with a Mark V Parasites Fabricator.  I used the extra knowledge to unlock Mark III fleet ships so I can produce the Mark IV variants from the factory once I take the planet.

I have experienced more carrier attacks in this game than in any other I have played.  Carriers typically have been unloading 200 - 500 AI ships on my border planets (frequently coordinating with planned AI wave strikes) which I have been handling by moving around my botnet.

The advanced factory planet has a dyson sphere along with around 1000 Mark III AI ships and a Mark II Fortress.  My attack goes as follows:

1)  I begin by moving around 500 fleet ships of varying Mark levels through the hostile wormhole to draw enemy fire. 
2) I then drop in a Botnet golem and watch the enemy ship number plummet.
3) AI ships of varying Marks start dropping in from bordering hostile systems. 
4) After a minute or so, I drop in a fully loaded Hive golem and unload 500 wasps. 
5) With the wasps as cover, the botnet golem moves deeper into the planet, reclaiming along the way.
6) Reclaimed Zeneth sieges wipe out the fortress.
7) My newly created zombie militia fleet of 1000+ destroy all guardposts on the planet. 
My military destroys the AI command center.
9) I figure at this point the dyson's will be helping me out but are still attacking my ships which I find a bit odd.
10) I start bringing in my non-military units to start up the command center and support structures.

At this point, I start patting myself on the back...and then all hell  breaks loose.

The AI responds about 10 seconds after I take out the command center:

1)  Five carriers jump into the system, each carrying 1000 ships (WTF?!).
2) All unload.
3) My Botnet valiantly tries to stem the tide..and falls under the massive wave.
4) Adv Factory and Fabricator are destroyed.
5) Gatling ships start attacking each other (?).  AI destroys them all.

Obviously I cannot let this result stand but I don't know how to handle this massive carrier reinforcement.  I would be happy with at least getting a Mark IV scout out of the factory before it goes balls up.  I have tried to bring in mobile builders to setup advanced forcefields but they cannot survive long enough to get them running (and frankly, how long would they stay up anyway).  I have even tried scrapping my command center after getting the capturables but the AI doesn't seem to care and still cleans house.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.  I will follow up this post with screenshots or anything else you feel would be helpful.

[Faulty Logic]

9) I figure at this point the dyson's will be helping me out but are still attacking my ships which I find a bit odd.

Dyson gatlings never change their allegiance. The sphere will spawn enemy-to-all (if the system is AI-controlled), human-friendly (if uncontrolled) or AI-friendly (if human controlled) gatlings.

1)  Five carriers jump into the system, each carrying 1000 ships (WTF?!).
2) All unload.

Most likely: you've just met the new and improved special forces. The AI has a big fleet of ships that it uses to defend planets of interest (CSG or golem). You can avoid these by leaving time between killing the AI command station and installing your own.

Less likely: you triggered a raid engine and didn't notice.
Even less likely: you had a big threatfleet and it decided to come when you took control.
hugely unlikely: you didn't notice that it was the middle of a CPA.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.  I will follow up this post with screenshots or anything else you feel would be helpful.

1} kill the AI command center.
2} wait 5 minutes
3} get supply on the system if you don't already have it
4} capture the system, quickly put up forcefields around the FactIV, then scrap your command station.

 The dyson gatlings will defend easily against minor attacks, but you'll need to keep an eye on that system the whole game. You may want to put up turrets/forts in addition to the ffs.

Post a save if you want more detailed advice.

[ErictheRed]

Thanks Faulty.  To respond to some of your statements:

Dyson gatlings never change their allegiance. The sphere will spawn enemy-to-all (if the system is AI-controlled), human-friendly (if uncontrolled) or AI-friendly (if human controlled) gatlings.

I thought that Dyson gatlings attack whoever owns the planet.  If there is no ownership (command center), they will help the humans with defense and attacking bordering hostile systems.

Most likely: you've just met the new and improved special forces. The AI has a big fleet of ships that it uses to defend planets of interest (CSG or golem). You can avoid these by leaving time between killing the AI command station and installing your own.

Less likely: you triggered a raid engine and didn't notice.
Even less likely: you had a big threatfleet and it decided to come when you took control.
hugely unlikely: you didn't notice that it was the middle of a CPA.

I don't know if I have run across a raid engine before.  I didn't notice it but I will take another look at my game tonight.  Pretty sure my threat level was low...around 200 or so enemy ships.  I know it was not a CPA.

1} kill the AI command center.
2} wait 5 minutes

If I kill the AI command center and leave, I wonder what the carrier behavior will be?  If I build and then quickly scrap a command center, I thought the AI would leave the capturables alone and the Dyson Gatlings would help with defense.  The problem is that neither seems to be happening.

[Faulty Logic]

If I kill the AI command center and leave, I wonder what the carrier behavior will be?  If I build and then quickly scrap a command center, I thought the AI would leave the capturables alone and the Dyson Gatlings would help with defense.  The problem is that neither seems to be happening.

The carriers will most likely show up, wait a bit, then leave.
The AI never destroys capturables it controls, but always targets human irreplaceables with prejudice (even on uncontrolled planets).
The Dyson gatlings will need some time to first kill the other gatlings, then form a decent group.

[ErictheRed]

Thanks Faulty, I will try this tonight.  I'm going to continue to play this out but if the AI is capable of injecting 5000+ ships to counter attack a threatened core shield planet, how is it going to react when I threaten its homeworlds? 

I had a couple of followup questions:

1) If the AI carriers show up and meet some human friendly zombie ships and or Dyson Gatlings, will they unload and go free roaming?  If so, I need to start heavily fortifying my connecting system.

2) Is there a way to predict and or stem the flow of these carrier reinforcements?  Similar to warp raiding to narrow the target of scheduled AI waves, is guard post raiding effective for stalling these reinforcement waves? 

[Faulty Logic]

I'm going to continue to play this out but if the AI is capable of injecting 5000+ ships to counter attack a threatened core shield planet, how is it going to react when I threaten its homeworlds? 

Badly. In addition to the special forces (the roaming defenders), it has a strategic reserve (basically special forces, but only for the core and home worlds) of mkV ships.

1) If the AI carriers show up and meet some human friendly zombie ships and or Dyson Gatlings, will they unload and go free roaming?  If so, I need to start heavily fortifying my connecting system.

Special forces cannot be freed except by a cross-planet attack or somehow ending up on a human-controlled planet.

2) Is there a way to predict and or stem the flow of these carrier reinforcements?  Similar to warp raiding to narrow the target of scheduled AI waves, is guard post raiding effective for stalling these reinforcement waves? 

Each special forces guard post in your space increases the SF strength cap by 5%. You can't slow the rate of reinforcement significantly. You can however, break that fleet and routinely "call" the SF before they get back up to full strength, so you never have to deal with the full fleet again.

Not all carrier fleets behave the same way. Some are "threatfleet" (the number of threat ships shows up in your HUD), which are like SF except the AI can send them to attack as well.

[ErictheRed]

It worked!  I backed off the factory planet for a couple of minutes after popping the command center, came back and was able to set everything up in time.  Two forts and a ton of turrets later, and the planet is now secured. Dyson's are on board as well.  I subsequently scouted the rest of the map using the Mark IV scouts.

My plan now is to turn my golems and 75% of my fleet nomadic, living off the land as they slash and burn deeper into AI territory to get position on the homeworlds, remaining ARS's and AI progress reducers.

I'll let you know how it goes.  Thanks for the help.

[ErictheRed]

I ended up losing this one.  My undoing was taking unnecessary planets to get more research, plus my research was not very focused.  My nomad fleet started their planet hopping and I subsequently warp raided the last 2 gates bordering my main network of planets, leaving the ones neighboring my nomad fleet.  My plan was to utilize the botnet and hive golems to reclaim as much of the AI waves as possible and because of the warp raiding, the AI would have no choice but to rush ships at the botnet.  Plus, I would not need as much of a garrison close to my homeworlds since the waves would no longer hit there. 

As soon as I completed the warp raids, I got a CPA warning.  Speed racer was panicked and decided to direct his assault directly at one of my homeworlds.  I prepared as well as I could but I was low on resources and when the CPA wave hit, they detonated EMP's on both planets leading up to my homeworld.  I had decent defenses on the homeworld but guess what; another EMP ().  I got blitzed and destroyed.

I'm going to play another with vanilla AI's because these AI plots were a bit much.  The Stealth Master loved using the Eyebots (which is a ridiculously OP ship) to shred my supply lines throughout the middle game.  The Speed Racer started using EMP's in the endgame very liberally.  Does anyone know how to counter an EMP detonation?

It was a learning experience for sure.  I need a bit more experience before tackling these AI plots again.  Anyway, thanks Faulty for the information, it was helpful.

[Diazo]

On the EMP, it was almost certainly an EMP Guardian

The only real way to counter them is to see them coming and intercept them a system out for your defensive line.

It is also preferable to intercept them with starships if possible as they are EMP immune, although as the EMP guardian does not EMP on death, as long as the timing allows your fleet ships to warp in after the EMP guardian does, they work also.

However, it sounds like the Speed Racer is sending the EMP Guardians after you. That massively shrinks your window of opportunity to intercept them as that speed increase is tough.

Note that EMP guardians always emit the EMP on wormhole exit, even when they are exiting into an AI held system. Their EMP will not affect AI ships. (Unlike other EMP effects in the game which hit all ships in system.)

The other option is gravity effects if you can to slow them down, as a gravity effect (such as a Riot SS) will override the Speed Booster's speed increase.

Not a lot of help I realize, but EMP guardians are one of the nastier units in the game.


On the warp gates, the AI only sends waves at Human Command Stations, they will not send waves after your Nomad fleet.

When no Warp Gates are left adjacent such as you did, the wave spawns as close as possible to a Human planet and crosses the distance in normal space.

Hope that helps clear things up.

D.

[Bognor]

A trick for dealing with EMPs is to stash your fleet ships into transports before the EMP hits.  The transports themselves get stunned by the EMP and are unable to move, but they can still unload. 

By the way, what you're calling "AI plot" is actually "AI type".  "AI plots" are things like astrotrains and hybrids that you can enable for one or both AIs when setting up the game.

[Hearteater]

Eyebots are completely negated by Counter Missile Turrets, which while a touch pricey at 4000 knowledge, are pretty damn useful.  They also counter Missile Frigates.  If I recall, Counter Missile Turrets are above Counter Dark Matter Turrets on the turret menu, but you don't actually need to unlock Counter Dark Matter first.

[ErictheRed]

I will keep reserve transports if I start seeing EMP guardians, thanks for the tip!  I just could not believe how effortlessly i was beaten with this CPA raid containing multiple EMP guardians. 

Regarding the warp gate strategy I had, the only warp gate boarding my systems was a planet around 15 hops away from my homeworlds and in-between was my botnet, hive, and about 1400 fleet ships.  I wanted to drive the warp waves through the botnet golem so the resulting reclaimed fleet could reek havok as I drove deeper into AI territory.  I was always going to keep the single boarding warp gate in front of the botnet golem as I continued planet hopping. 

Is this a viable strategy?  The AI has no choice but to use the one warp gate I leave for it, correct?  (In the midgame, one of the AI types was spawning warp guardians that were like mobile warp gates which I could see would put a damper on this strategy, but at least I would get a notification from the game when one of these things spawned somewhere).

For the Eyebots, I eventually countered them by researching stealth tachyon turrets (the AI would systematically destroy Mark I tachyon turrets) and putting them on every wormhole in my network.  I also installed basic turrets within range of my command centers on high resource planets since sniper turrets are useless against these Eyebots.  So a Counter Missile Turret in range of a command center will prevent the Eyebot from doing any damage in the turret's range?  Something to think about but 4000 knowledge seems a bit too steep and the Eyebot would continue to wander around your system network, probing for weak spots.

[Diazo]

On the warp gate thing, I'm going to need a galaxy map screen shot to go any farther. It sounds like you are playing a snake map?

For the Counter-Missile turret, I am generally an advocate of these, however you only have 19 of them so you have to pick what gets counter-missile coverage.

This may require tweaking your defensive layout.

As for them being worth 4K knowledge, it does depend on how many ship types with Missile ammo the AIs have. They are both guaranteed to have Missile Frigates and Zenith Starships and one has Eye-Bots. Depending on how the game is going I would seriously consider unlock Counter-Missile turrets at that point.

However, I play a lattice map so there are a lot of warp point interconnections so no matter what I do with my fleet AI ships are going to get through to my static defenses.

It sounds like you have fewer warp point connections so the Tachyon Emitter Turret may have been the better option in your case. (Again, screenshot required for me to be any more specific.)

Also, depending on how your scouting is going, keep in mind that the Scout Starship Mk IV also provides couter-missile coverage as well as being tachyon immune so it allows you to scout the entire galaxy with impunity.

However, unlocking the Scout Starship Mk IV requires 5,750 knowledge and only has a ship cap of 2.

Scout Starship

D.

[ErictheRed]

I learned from my mistakes in the first game referenced in this thread.  I attached the galaxy map from the first game below.  In the second game I am now playing (galaxy map attached), I have already knocked out one AI, and preparing to take the other.  My AI progress is around 300 right now and at no point in the game have I seen carriers.  I made it a point to only take worlds that I had to take to prevent deep strikes (or because of ARS, core fabs, etc).  2 vanilla 7/7 AI's.