Author Topic: Capturing Structures and other questions...  (Read 8786 times)

Offline Red781

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Capturing Structures and other questions...
« on: January 15, 2012, 10:56:10 am »
Hello Sirs.

Well I purchased this game just after xmas and have spent around 19 hours on a 80 planet map with the AI difficulty set to 7. I'm starting to wonder if I should just call it quits on the map and start again. I've 13 planets and my AI progress is at 290.

I just jumped into the game and kind of learnt as I went. I'm finding that I'm constantly fighting and defending my current planets, rather than making any further progress so I'm not sure if it is worth fighting on.

I'd like to know how exactly you capture the advanced factories and other captures structures. What are the mechanics around this?

Is there anything I can do to slowdown the number of ships I'm facing? If I remove guard posts at a planet for example, and all the structures, but not the command post, will that cut down the total number of fighters I'm up against, or will they just be sent from someplace else?

How many data centres should I expect to find on my map? If I reduce my AI progress, will it reduce the number of ships I'm facing, or does it just mean I have more of a buffer before it gets any closer to the mark 3 wave ships?


Thanks for any help.

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: Capturing Structures and other questions...
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2012, 12:14:59 pm »
Your AIP total isn't at all too high.  You've actually been pretty conservative compared to a lot of new players.  Which is good for you.  The downside is you've take a long time to get there so just the time along has given the AI a lot to work with.  That said, hopefully some of this will help:

Any capturable structure switches to your ownership once you build a Command Station in that system.  This means just destroying the enemy Command Station won't switch it, giving you time to finish clearing out the system before that structure becomes a valid target for the AI.  Of the structures, Advanced Research Station is the least location sensitive since 1) it is mobile, 2) the second you capture it you get a new ship type unlocked (at random, Mark I and II of the ship type) permanently.  Advanced Factories are more of a structure you want at least one of, but more are less valuable.  They let you make Mark IV fleet ships of any fleet ship you've unlocked Mark III on.  So it is really nice to have one, but more is so-so, especially those that are hard to defend (Advanced Factories aren't mobile).  Be really aware of what ships the AI has that ignore Force Fields because it really likes to use those to assassinate Advanced Factories when you aren't paying attention.

If you are 19 hours in, a lot of the AI worlds are probably starting to fill up.  Have you been getting messages about Barracks being created on AI worlds?  This starts to make things really tough, but not un-winnable.  The basic challenge you have at this point is getting stuff done between waves.  You need to set small, obtainable goals and get to them right after you stop a wave.  Pay attention to when the waves happen (there are two on separate times, so they can come at nearly the same time, or very staggered).  If I recall correctly, waves are about 20 minutes apart but have a reasonable plus-or-minus each time so it isn't a fixed pattern for the whole game.  On difficulty 7 it is a bit lower than 20 minutes but I can't recall the formula at the moment.  While all that is happening, you've got a 2 hour window between cross-planet attacks.  Remember, part of the time after each wave will be spent rebuilding what you've lost.  So better defenses effectively give you more time to go on offense.  Consider also that turret deaths are better than ship deaths because if you have very light ship deaths to replace you can go on the offense very quickly and let your remains rebuilders fix you defenses while you take an important objective.

As for cutting down what you are facing:
1) Waves and Cross-Planet Attacks are based on AIP, so the only way to make them smaller is to have less AIP.  So reducing AIP through data centers will make waves smaller, and reduce  the number of reinforcements being added.  It won't do anything to ships already in play (or waves that are already incoming).

2) To have less enemy ships on a planet, you need to remove guard posts.  Each planet has a "cap" that is based on the number of guard posts, so you can reduce the total number that planet will hold by killing guard posts.  However, the ships do go somewhere, so all you are doing is shifting ships from that planet to elsewhere.

3) In the galaxy map, use the "Threat" option from the drop-down box at the bottom to see where ships are built up that might attack you.  "Threat" are ships that you've pissed off but not destroyed and they are actively trying to find a weak-point in your defenses to attack.  They will often join in with a wave to overwhelm you, so they are something you need to clear out if possible.  Of course if you stir up more threat killing existing threat, you aren't really making progress.  Note that you need a scout in the system (maybe a non-scout ship would work, haven't tested) to see threat on the galaxy map.  So get scouts on all adjacent systems so you can monitor large threat build-ups.  Even without scouting however, you can always see your total threat in the top bar so that gives you a good idea of how much bad stuff could be coming your way unexpectedly.

At this point you need to get the entire map scouted so you can identify all the targets you need to hit.  Use Raid Starships to kill Data Centers and other AIP reducers if possible.  If you have a Super Terminal that you can reasonably capture, that might work but you'd want to time capturing that system for right after waves.  You also need to knock out the Core Shield Generators (if you have them on).  After that it is all about planning you attacks on the home worlds.  You need a path with no more than 4 enemy systems deep (or the AI will react to your "deep strike" by spawning extra ships).  So the easiest method is to capture all the planets leading up to the AI world, but if that path is too long you might need to use a different technique.

Offline zoutzakje

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,052
  • Crosshatch Conqueror
Re: Capturing Structures and other questions...
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2012, 12:43:44 pm »
just remember to NEVER put the enemy homeworlds or coreworlds on alert if you are not ready to fight them yet. They will build up massive forces and make the game almost impossible to beat. Coreworlds are the MK IV planets that border the homeworlds. coreworlds look like regular mk IV planets but the difference is the high number of mk V ships on it, and the presence of a second warp gate.
for defense make use of gravity turrets and tractor beam turrets. They can be very helpful with slowing the enemy ships down, giving you more time to deal with them.
if you still have trouble, perhaps you can post your savegame. That way we can look into it and see if it's hopeless or not :P

oh, and welcome to the forums =)

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Capturing Structures and other questions...
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2012, 12:49:47 pm »
2) To have less enemy ships on a planet, you need to remove guard posts.  Each planet has a "cap" that is based on the number of guard posts, so you can reduce the total number that planet will hold by killing guard posts.  However, the ships do go somewhere, so all you are doing is shifting ships from that planet to elsewhere.
That last sentence isn't entirely true: when the AI reinforces a planet they get a certain amount per guard post (and some for the command station and a few other objects), so if you've killed the guard posts the AI just gets fewer ships for that reinforcement "point", and is not "refunded" for the fact that it's getting less than it would with more guard posts.

For more detail:
http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_AI_Reinforcements

Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Red781

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Capturing Structures and other questions...
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2012, 04:34:45 pm »
Many thanks for the responses.

I should say I think this is a brilliant game. I think the fact that I have played it for 19 hours shows how much I have enjoyed it ;)

This is my map:



I have started to try to clear some of the guard posts from the systems. Mainly the 2 planets boarding the p5 system with population at 223.

I'm sure you are wondering why I seemed to have spreadout in such a hap hazard way. The systems I have were basically the easiest ones to take control of, in my search for more knowledge and resources.

Yes I have seen the messages about AI barracks and have encountered them. They seem to be sending transport ships towards me after massing large forces.

I've been thinking about trying to use the stationary science labs, mk III's in some of the hostile systems. As without taking more planets and pissing the AI off even more there is nothing else I can do.

I was hoping to take out the systems to the left of the map, so that I would be able to defend off only 2 main points of attack. However the systems proved too difficult to take.......





Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: Capturing Structures and other questions...
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2012, 07:36:15 pm »
I personally would restart at this point, you've gotten stalled.  A stalemate is not an uncommon 'lose' scenario.

You might also try dropping the AI down a level in difficulty, at least until you're used to the strategy.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: Capturing Structures and other questions...
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2012, 08:35:12 pm »
Honestly, I'd at least treat this as a learning experiment rather than quitting.  When you have nothing to lose is the best time to go nuts and try crazy stuff.

If you haven't already done so, try out using warheads.  There are some tricks to them, but when you can trade 2 AIP for 800 threat you'll find them surprisingly useful.  In particular note: you can't put them in transports, Lightning/Armor Warheads (the best to experiment with at first) don't have all that great an AoE, so get a good feel for the size.  Check the AoE size of each Mark of warhead too.

Try out new tactics for taking those "impossible" systems.  Honestly, if you can't figure out a way to take those the homeworlds are going to be quite a shock :) .  It is really all about making a little progress at a time.  Things like luring the the ships into turret defenses on your home soil.  Keeping your defensive fleet small in a inner system so the AI commits a lot of threat into a seemingly undefended system.  If nothing else, sometimes you just need to blow the Command Station first thing and suck up all the threat that will likely add.  Although there are ways to avoid even that.

Knowledge raiding (with Mark III Science Lab) should only be a last resort.  Note you should not build more than one, since the enemies spawn PER Science Lab.  In other words, if you want your game to end very fast, build 5 Mark III Science Labs.  It is a mistake you'll only make once :) .

Really, I read people bring impossible things to this forum all the time, only to come back a few days later with, "ok, I got past that".  It's all a puzzle, the trick is finding a solution (and there are many solutions).

Offline zoutzakje

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,052
  • Crosshatch Conqueror
Re: Capturing Structures and other questions...
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2012, 03:47:18 am »
wow, you've let enemy forces build up a lot. Looks a bit like my own first 7/7 game lol. Before taking any more enemy planets, I'd try to get rid of all the threat first. Completely neuter all the bordering enemy worlds. Neutering means taking out all guard posts and structures, leaving only the command station alive. In your case, I'd even take out all the wormhole guard posts. Don't worry if it will take a lot of time. Even if you only manage to take out just one guardpost each time you attack an enemy planet, you're still making progress. Kill all but one warpgates as well while you're at it. Doing so will limit the amount of planets the enemy can send a regular wave at, making it easy for you to defend. It's probably best to leave one of the warpgates to the east alive, since you'll eventually have to make progress towards that direction. Don't forget, Warp Gate Guardians and AI Eye's count as warpgates too.
Try scouting more as well, there is still a lot more out there for you to discover (like the homeworlds, of which one of them is probably the most upper left planet).
Also, do you play with Golems and/or Spirecraft enabled? They could be a great help. Especially the botnet golem and the martyrs would do miracles in your situation.
Do you know against which AI types you play? I'm curious to know. They can influence the difficulty just as much as the difficulty itself (perhaps even more).

Offline Red781

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Capturing Structures and other questions...
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2012, 04:40:26 pm »
Hello again :)

I haven't intentionally let the AI build up so many forces.... :) I've spent the last 23 hours trying to stop just that :)

I think if I start again, I'll have a better shot at getting further. I think I've actually destroyed an advanced factory when trying to capture it. Now I know how to do it, I won't make the same mistake again.

I think I will also be much more selective about which systems I take. I've also noticed that the objectives page, within the stats screen is very helpful with regards to what you should do next. I'll also concentrate on building up my economy more early on, crystal II harvesters made a big difference once I got them, but it was much too late. Plus econ mark II command centres. 

I might keep going for a few more hours on the map (just one more turn.... ;) ) and see if I can try and get the threat down on my boarder AI systems. After that I'll call it quits.

Thanks for the tips!

Offline zoutzakje

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,052
  • Crosshatch Conqueror
Re: Capturing Structures and other questions...
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2012, 05:12:49 pm »
well, suppose that'll work too. I had to give up on a lot of my first games. Learning along the way and just keep trying again eventually got me my first victories. Took me many mistakes and many hours though lol

Offline Red781

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Capturing Structures and other questions...
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2012, 05:32:39 pm »
Quote
Also, do you play with Golems and/or Spirecraft enabled?

I'm not sure about this. Is there a way for me to check? I just started with the defaults really. I didn't understand what I was choosing :)

Also, apologies for not answering your question. The AI types I am playing with are both set to Random easier.

I will try to neuter more planets during the next few hours of game time. However at the moment, when I play, I feel like I am constantly firefighting issues left right and centre. Perhaps this is how the game feels normally? :)

If I could just concentrate my defences into one or two areas, I feel like I could take a few breaths, scout around more and make some sound decisions. I'd also be able to build up a small collection of starship for both defence and offence.


Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: Capturing Structures and other questions...
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2012, 09:11:12 pm »
For a game where you capture 20ish planets out of 80, you probably want it ending well before 20 hours.  Time isn't your friend and the AI basically always gets more ships added over time than you can kill in that same time period.  So even when you are clearing out enemy ships, it needs to be towards a broader purpose.  Taking a system, neutering a system, gate raiding a system, clearing out a large pile of threat.

And just be aware of what planets you put on alert (enemy planets are on alert once you've destroyed one of their neighbor's Command Stations).  Putting Mark IV worlds (even Mark III early game) on alert should be done with care.  If you must put them on alert, try and very quickly either take them or at least neuter them before they get out of hand.  Always be sure to scout past a planet you are planning to take to see what you will put on alert.

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: Capturing Structures and other questions...
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2012, 02:48:34 pm »
I will try to neuter more planets during the next few hours of game time. However at the moment, when I play, I feel like I am constantly firefighting issues left right and centre. Perhaps this is how the game feels normally? :)
If you're at the right level of difficulty, yes.  You should feel like you're firefighting half the time and trying to squeeze your objectives in between the other half.  My personal preference of difficulty (note, it's a preference) is where I'm constantly right on the verge of losing, and any serious mistake will cost me the game, not just a few systems.

Quote
If I could just concentrate my defences into one or two areas, I feel like I could take a few breaths, scout around more and make some sound decisions. I'd also be able to build up a small collection of starship for both defence and offence.
A common need, shoring up your defensive fronts.  The earlier posters are right about one thing, this is a great time to experiment against heavily defended systems and to try out 'strange things'.  They'll work more often than not if implemented well.  Sorry I recommended you ditch the game so quickly.  You will however find yourself banging your head against heavily reinforced systems at this point.

I personally would recommend some triage.  Figure out which systems you *can* abandon, and do so.  Get the rest of your systems behind a bottleneck or two.  Try to strengthen your Econ (The Type 3 Econ Station is well worth the knowledge investment) so that you're not fighting against your resources quite so heavily.  Tone down cross border aggression with the neuters you mentioned, and you might also think about making sure you've got a 'whipping boy', a single system with an enemy warp gate against it, so you can control where the waves come in at, if you don't have one already.  Then Turret the heck out of that system so your fleet can do offensive work while your turrets handle the defense.

Looking at your map, I would do the following as my 'starting plan':
Neuter the five western worlds (the one in the dead end as well) or take them for the economy/science.  If there's nothing significant in resources there I'd just neuter them so they can't aggro me in the back, blow their warp gates, and move on.

Take the P5 in the south and turn it into a turret ball.  Leave the warp gate on the P1 Tech III world and allow that to feed the waves into your turret ball.

Abandon the world with 329 on it just east of the P5 with 223.  Knock the warp gates out on the two systems that are connected to the world with 223.  Use this as your fleet's staging area.  It'll allow you to defend from roamers and give you a good place to 'jump off' from.  You can set your factories to FRD to that region by clicking on the dock, going to the world map, holding V, and rt-clicking that system.  That'll send anything it builds to that system in defender mode.

Once you've done that, get your breath and get your fleet together.  You'll now have a 2-access homeworld economic region, a whipping boy setup to handle any wave incursions, and your fleet will be back to full strength and more useful.  From there, start making your next set of plans.  :)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 02:56:14 pm by GUDare »
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Martyn van Buren

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 642
Re: Capturing Structures and other questions...
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2012, 05:29:52 am »
Necro'ing a bit here, but may I add a suggestion for new players to turn on the "show AI types" option in the lobby?  Until you get familiar with them it's helpful for figuring out what you're up against --- and learning the types so you can recognize them later --- and nice to know when you ask for help in the forums.

To be honest, I guess I'm an experienced novice at this point and I still play with it on; I find it hard enough figuring out how to counter different types when I know what they are not to feel like I need the extra challenge of figuring it out.

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: Capturing Structures and other questions...
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2012, 10:17:25 am »
Does anyone recall if that is on by default in a new install?  It probably should be.