Author Topic: Attriting the AI?  (Read 12621 times)

Offline Nibelung44

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Attriting the AI?
« on: November 04, 2009, 03:23:43 am »
Hi,

I would like to know if you can do an attrition war to the AI. i.e kill ships somewhere, so that it has to compensate/reinforce the losses, and these reinforcements are not used elsewhere?

The crux of the problem is to know if the reinforcements 'formula' for the AI are only a function of time and AI level, or if auto-compensating mechanisms exist. If say the AI, on average, get 1000 ships every 30 mn when at AI level 100, or if the sum of the reinforcements check also how many are 'missing' and get adjusted dynamically.

An example: I have my southern border, where I do not intent to progress, well guarded by defenses. South of that, it is AI land, and there is 1750 ships in the nearby system. Should I make a raid to trash as many ships as possible, knowing they will have to be compensated (= sucking up the reinforcements of the AI to this place and not elsewhere) or does it has no impact overall?

I think you get the point...


Another question related to this one. When the AI get reinforcements, how is the mix of Mark levels? If AI Mark Level is II, will it receives only Mark II ships, or will it get Mark II ships at least, but if the system is a Mark III+, these will be replaced by their Mark III (or better) equivalent? This would be an auto compensating mechanism somehow.

Thanks in advance, this can develop a new branch of strategy, for me, knowing a bit how reinforcements work in details (I know of the FAQ but I'm still missing some elements...)
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 03:26:15 am by Nibelung44 »

Offline RCIX

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Re: Attriting the AI?
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2009, 04:39:19 am »
I can answer your reinforcement mechanism question i think: It's something like max(planet_level, ai_level).
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Offline Haagenti

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Re: Attriting the AI?
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2009, 05:04:47 am »
In theory it is possible to attrit the AI by killing ships at places where it is likely to reinforce. The AI has a certain priority (home planets, planets that are alerted) and will distribute ships across these priorities, though it will also (but less frequently) reinforce other planets. Once a planet fills up it will stop adding ships there, so attacking filled up planets would lead to less reinforcements elsewhere.

I have my doubt whether attrition will work as strategy: the time and resources that you spent on killing ships is time and resources that are not spent on a more direct approach. And that will give the AI more time to reinforce. 

What may work (and what you should be doing anyway when research raiding) is killing AI planets deep inside AI territory with many neighbours. All those neighbours will start sucking up reinforcements from other planets.
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Offline Nibelung44

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Re: Attriting the AI?
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2009, 05:14:51 am »
leave to me if the strategy is viable or not  ;D  no seriously, thanks for the feedback, but I really must be sure that a ship lost by the AI is not "dynamically compensated" for this strategy to work.

Offline Revenantus

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Re: Attriting the AI?
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2009, 06:19:23 am »
leave to me if the strategy is viable or not  ;D  no seriously, thanks for the feedback, but I really must be sure that a ship lost by the AI is not "dynamically compensated" for this strategy to work.

Haagenti is correct. The AI has a rate of reinforcement (slightly randomized intervals), and chooses where to distribute those ships, with various planets having different levels of priority based on a few factors. The AI will not automatically gain extra reinforcements due to lost ships, so your strategy is theoretically viable. Whether it works well in practice I have no idea.

Offline Haagenti

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Re: Attriting the AI?
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2009, 08:28:01 am »
leave to me if the strategy is viable or not  ;D  no seriously, thanks for the feedback, but I really must be sure that a ship lost by the AI is not "dynamically compensated" for this strategy to work.

Let me know if it works. I try to avoid filled up planets (as these are the only ones that are useful to attrit), since I usually end up the one who gets attritted. But your mileage may vary.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Attriting the AI?
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2009, 10:04:10 am »
The strategy is theoretically viable, in the sense that the AI has no compensation for lost ships (AI Progress excepted, in cases of lost planets, etc, since that eventually causes larger ship volumes in reinforcements and waves).  There is no rubber-banding to the AI (ala Mario Kart).

However, I would somewhat question the premise of a war of attrition against a foe that has 100x your strength, and which tends to build ships faster in response to you, anyway.  Generally speaking, even if you have a 200% or better Kill-To-Loss ratio in all of your engagements against the enemy, it will still be gaining ships faster than you depending on the AI Progress level, the difficulty level of the AI, the size of the map, etc.

The difference, of course, is that it is gaining ships across a wider space, and it is severely constrained in how it can use those ships.  But because it can focus reinforcements in specific areas, you can cause some "misdirection" of its reinforcements -- and by the same token, it can relatively quickly react to focused threats that you throw against it.  So in a sense of whittling down the actual number of units of the AI, I think you'd be fighting a losing battle in pretty much all cases on a galactic scale.

That said, a war of attrition is actually an extremely popular tactic on individual planets.  Force fields and other big defenses (superfortresses, etc) cannot be repaired by the AI, but have a very slow regen, for exactly this sort of purpose -- so that you can hit them repeatedly with forces and wear them down over time, if you want/have to.  So while I do somewhat question the premise of attrition on a galactic scale because of how the AI functions, when you simply look at a portion of the galaxy, or even an individual planet, I think that tactic is highly effective and actually used by a lot of players (myself included).

Then again, depending on what you feel qualifies as attriting the AI, one could also make the argument that the entire game is founded upon attriting the AI -- not the individual fleet ships, which are simply obstacles to bypass or kill, but rather the larger ships -- command stations, warp gates, ARSes and factories, data centers, guard posts, and so forth.  The AI has a fixed supply of those at the start of the game, and they never, ever, get more.  Unlike you, they can't rebuild their ships of those sorts that are lost.  So as you are expanding into the galaxy, you are putting a permanent crimp into where and how the AI can reinforce itself or how it can attack you.

Another way of looking at it is this: the AI can out-produce you in terms of military ships, and if you try to stem the tide of that galactically, I don't think that's likely to work very well.  But on a planet or regional basis, that can work very well, mainly by striking at the reinforcement-affecting ships (command stations, guard posts, warp gates, and special forces guard posts).  This sometimes leads to a strategy that players here call "neutering" a planet, which is a form of galactic attrition in my opinion.

Now, all of that said -- is there room for you to do something surprising and original that nobody else has yet done?  I think yes. :)
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Offline Nibelung44

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Re: Attriting the AI?
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2009, 10:28:29 am »
Thanks for the very detailed answer!

I'll make some  tests then... The goal is to have a kill ratio of at least 10:1 in such type of battles. Ideally you lose nothing and the AI lose several hundreds of ships. By targetting enemy systems which are still under your supply, I think you can do such things, potentially.

Offline x4000

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Re: Attriting the AI?
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2009, 10:44:04 am »
Thanks for the very detailed answer!

I'll make some  tests then... The goal is to have a kill ratio of at least 10:1 in such type of battles. Ideally you lose nothing and the AI lose several hundreds of ships. By targetting enemy systems which are still under your supply, I think you can do such things, potentially.

No problem!

And yes, I think if you can make a very good KTL ratio, and also take out guard posts (neutering the planets) as you go, you could have good results and do something very different from what has been tried before -- in terms of scale, at least, and the effect that might have on the overall game flow for you.  I look forward to seeing what you find out!
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Offline Kjara

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Re: Attriting the AI?
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2009, 11:32:58 am »
Actually at least one form of attrition is a extremely valid strategy.  Stick a bunch of turrets(40 or so) on an enemy planet where they can just kill spawns on a wormhole or two(best with some lasers so you can outdistance any turrets that spawn), and every time the ai respawns troops on that planet your turrets will kill the respawns on that wormhole without tieing down any of your mobile troops and with basically no losses if its a tier I or II planet.

Offline Haagenti

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Re: Attriting the AI?
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2009, 11:36:14 am »
If you can apply a kill ratio of 10:1, why not apply this kill ratio to a string of planets leading to the enemy home planets? Why apply it to a filled-up backwater planet?

Note: I'm not critical.  I'm really just curious on what you are trying to achieve. If I really don't understand something, it's usually because I'm totally missing the point somewhere

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Offline x4000

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Re: Attriting the AI?
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2009, 11:36:25 am »
Actually at least one form of attrition is a extremely valid strategy.  Stick a bunch of turrets(40 or so) on an enemy planet where they can just kill spawns on a wormhole or two(best with some lasers so you can outdistance any turrets that spawn), and every time the ai respawns troops on that planet your turrets will kill the respawns on that wormhole without tieing down any of your mobile troops and with basically no losses if its a tier I or II planet.


Yeah, that's true, I still have yet to try that, but I know you've been using it to great effect.  That sort of "attrition trap" is pretty interesting.  Of course, with some of the new area-damage ships, and the really-long-distance ships, if the AI has them, that strategy might become less effective in the expansion in some maps.  But yeah, that's a cool one.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Attriting the AI?
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2009, 11:38:55 am »
If you can apply a kill ratio of 10:1, why not apply this kill ratio to a string of planets leading to the enemy home planets? Why apply it to a filled-up backwater planet?

Note: I'm not critical.  I'm really just curious on what you are trying to achieve. If I really don't understand something, it's usually because I'm totally missing the point somewhere

Possibly he's a completionist, but I'm curious as to the motivation as well.  Others just like to experiment and do something cool that no one else has ever done before, and achieve victory through nontraditional means.  Or maybe it just fits with his playstyle for some other reason -- those have been my main assumptions so far.  I think that, for a certain set of strategy players (or gamers in general, perhaps), most-efficient victory is not the main goal.  Look at Kalzarius with his conquer-all-100-planets-on-the-map 40-hour game (which I think is pretty cool).
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Offline laxrulz777

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Re: Attriting the AI?
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2009, 12:27:54 pm »
After I understood a bit more of the AI mechanics, I had some luck "clearing out" sections.

I had a string of two systems that I'd conquered (I think to get an advanced factory). At first, I just wanted to protect the advanced factory but I was close to jumping to MKII on the AI progress so I didn't want to destroy anything. I formed a fleet of T-Raiders and Etherjets and hopped from system to system clearing out everything in them... This created a sort of "weak" area around that system. Basically, I just found myself hopping into the system with all of my MKII versions of those ships and setting them to RFD mode. Every 15 minutes or so I would come collect them and move them on to a new system.

There were about 6 or 7 systems that I could hop through in a cycle before starting over.

Now, whether or not that was a net win for me is another matter but it kept my factory safe and it was relatively little micro managing.

If you do something like this, don't forget to knowledge raid while you do it ;)

Also, T-Raiders are TERRIBLE at taking down turrets so it may be just that I had an ideal mix of units to do this with.

Offline Nibelung44

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Re: Attriting the AI?
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2009, 02:57:54 pm »
Well, I'm far far from being able to close toward the Core AI planets, as I am on a 80 planets map and owning only 9 systems. But I see concentrations forming around me, and I wanted to try sucking up reinforcements of the AI on one side while I was active on the other.

Anyway, I'm content to know that there is no rubber banding here... all is fair and square :)