Are Hard Exogalactic waves too hard?

[Philo]

Been playing against a AI lvl 6 and 7, and we still get beaten by the exogalactic waves. The first waves aren't that bad but after some hours it starts to be "6-12 massive ai ships en route to destroy you". How do you survive these?

We had to switch from playing against 7 and 8 AI because these waves just kill you. The waves always have mark IV and V ships too. They just chew up fortresses like nothing. I dunno, the other part of the game is not that hard, the exo waves are a real killer though.

[x4000]

This is Keith's area, but my understanding is that you're supposed to be using those spire ships to survive these waves.  It's meant to be a cut above the normal game in difficulty, though, since it culminates ultimately in a different way to win.

[keith.lamothe]

Well, you also get them on either Hard Golems or Hard Spirecraft, I'm not sure which is being used here.  But yea, they're supposed to be pretty hard.  Though I'm a bit surprised at this comment because all the other recent negative comments I've heard on their difficulty (that I remember right now) were of the form "Hard is actually easier than Medium", so I certainly haven't been looking to decrease their challenge.

Anyway, the golem/spirecraft waves are "charged" by AIP, so keep an eye on that.  The Fallen-Spire ones are not related to AIP.

[chemical_art]

Exo-waves are tricky because they often require different tactics then normal waves. While with normal waves you get less warning you know where and the composition of the enemy fleet. With exo-waves you know generally when they'll hit far in advance, but you don't know much more then that.

I will say exo-waves are harder. But once you get into the grove of beating them normal waves are easy.

The first thing to beating exo-waves is to remember that they occur a lot less frequently. As a result, you can fight them and take heavy causalities and still be OK. It can be disheartening losing whole fleets to them, but you gotta do what you gotta do. As long as you don't lose anything permanent or lose more then 4 or 5 planets you can pull ahead between the waves.

Secondly, you need mixed fleets to beat exo-waves because they are using mixed fleets of their own. Defenses alone, even forts, are powerless to the mixed group. You got to fight the waves using your defenses and fleets to compliment each other. That doesn't mean that always fight side by side, but if for example you hold your fleets back until your defenses engage the wave, then flank the exo wave with your own fleet, you would have more success.

It is key to micro your fleets a bit for the waves. I hate micro with a passion but even I micro exo-waves a little bit. For example, the incoming golems should receive the full attention of your bombers, while your fighters engage the enemy bombers.

The best defense for exo-waves is a rolling, or layered, defense. Since you don't exactly where the wave will hit, you can't park your fleet expecting to hit them right at the start. There is a delay. and for late games you simply can't get enough units in the right place sometimes. If you intentionally don't fight hard for the first world hit, but fight hard the world after, you can buy enough time to let your own major fleet meet up and fight back.


Lastly, plan your own offensives around the exo-waves. If for example you see two of them at 90%, hold off on angering that MK IV world until after the wave is broken and you can regroup.

[Shrugging Khan]

Personally, I think Exo Waves are piss easy on account of

a) You being able to steady your fronts and gather ships long in advance
b) You probably having one or two golems, or a full fleet of spireships, in your pocket

Granted, if you're unprepared or tangled up somehow, they can really make a mess - especially if you let them break through to your HW. But with a defensive perimeter strong enough to strip away the Massive Ships' escort fleet, the big hitters become easy targets for any bombers or similar ships you might have stowed away for a rainy day like such, or been able to quickly scramble to where the Exo-Ships are breaking through.

[Philo]

Yeah, I know the tactics how to win and do fairly ok against them in the beginning. But you gotta remember, the normal waves, border aggression, cross planet attacks don't stop while you're dealing with the exowaves. The last game we lost because all of those happened around the same time, in between 3 minutes. The exo waves with around 20 massive ships, a 3000+ cross planet and two 700 ship waves. I don't think anyone can have a defense prepared for that.

We were actually doing better than any other game with that difficulty. I had stashed up 600+ leftover troops that were not my main fleet from zenith stashes and mercenary ships. And a full Mark III fleet + two fortresses. But really, nothing could've stopped that.

Edit: Also, I'm pretty sure the further the game goes the faster the exo waves are prepared. Like the first one takes half an hour but the next ones take about just over 5 minutes after the initial 50% complete. And they occur more frequently. Maybe I'm wrong but this is my impression.

[x4000]

When something as apocalyptic as that happens, that's when I like having a nuke in my pocket.  I wait until the biggest possible group of ships is on one of my outer planets that I just can't defend, then withdraw my fleet and send in the nuke.  Boom -- plenty AIP, which stinks, but that singularly-rough event is then handled.  That's one of the only circumstances that I'll advocate nukes, but boy are they a lifesaver then.  It's saved my butt in a lot of games, actually.

[Philo]

But why are the Exo waves scaling up so much? I don't have a problem with them scaling a bit but... 10 massive AI ships should be enough to make you worry in any stage of the game with all the other shit going down. 20 massive AI ships is just too much imo. Anything over 10 is too much.

Just scale it down a little. That would be fine.

[x4000]

I can't really speak to that, that's all been Keith's thing.  As I understand it, he's been working pretty closely with players, and most seem to have found them either about right or on the easy side.  But that's not to say that all players would feel that way in all circumstances.  It could be related to map types chosen, playstyles... all sorts of things.  It's not a comment on your skill, in other words.  But I'll leave Keith to give an actual more meaningful response.

[superking]

When something as apocalyptic as that happens, that's when I like having a nuke in my pocket.  I wait until the biggest possible group of ships is on one of my outer planets that I just can't defend, then withdraw my fleet and send in the nuke.  Boom -- plenty AIP, which stinks, but that singularly-rough event is then handled.  That's one of the only circumstances that I'll advocate nukes, but boy are they a lifesaver then.  It's saved my butt in a lot of games, actually.

alternatively, bail the planet but leave a scout in so you can see what is going on. when the AI is done and starts gathering at the next wormhole, crank through lightning & emp warheads followed by your fleet. much less AIP cost, still effective

[x4000]

Yeah, that can also work well in various circumstances, too -- very good thought.

[keith.lamothe]

Edit: Also, I'm pretty sure the further the game goes the faster the exo waves are prepared. Like the first one takes half an hour but the next ones take about just over 5 minutes after the initial 50% complete. And they occur more frequently. Maybe I'm wrong but this is my impression.

As I mentioned before, the golems/spirecraft related exo waves "charge" based on AIP.  The higher your AIP, the faster they charge.  The size of each exo is about 20% bigger than the one before it (I think that's the percent growth), and takes about 20% longer to charge.

FS-related exos charge based on the number of spire cities you have.

Anyway, those situations are quite beatable, but you need multiple layers of defense so you can do cheap stuff like pick off engines with Riots, string it out with grav turrets and tractor turrets under forcefields.  And you need to be using those golems, spirecraft, or spire capital ships and city defenses that you're "paying for" with the exos.

[x4000]

And you need to be using those golems, spirecraft, or spire capital ships and city defenses that you're "paying for" with the exos.

I should have mentioned before: that was one of the prime goals of exogalactic waves: to make you use those toys.  They're meant to be quite hard even with the toys, and VERY hard without them.  In a lot of respects, the exogalactic waves are one of the harder things in the game by design.

[Philo]

Alright, by the looks of it I'll have to give it another go. Still, I wonder if 20+ Massive AI ships will ever be stoppable by any defense. I mean, I would like to hear other players remarks on that.

And also, usually by the stage we're defeated we've at best located one broken golem to repair. We play a 2 player game, with everything on and Lvl 6 and 7 AI right now.

[chemical_art]

Still, I wonder if 20+ Massive AI ships will ever be stoppable by any defense. I mean, I would like to hear other players remarks on that.

Normally when I get to that point of the game I have at least one golem or several spire craft. These trump units are used to defeat the enemy units. "20 massive units" is also deceptive. I don't think those count just golems but spire craft as well. at least 25% of my massive ships seem to be implosion ships. These ships can be dangerous, but a dozen bombers is more then a match for one. In my experience of those 20 units only 2 or 3 are golems which really require more strategy then just a fleet blob. These golems are very tough, but once their defenders are down even an armored golem cant stop a 400 unit fleet mixed with bombers.