Author Topic: Are Hard Exogalactic waves too hard?  (Read 8662 times)

Offline x4000

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Re: Are Hard Exogalactic waves too hard?
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2011, 11:36:09 am »
By the way, please make sure all articles are linked to from the main index here: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War:Fleet_Command

Otherwise, most players will never find them. :)
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Are Hard Exogalactic waves too hard?
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2011, 11:38:29 am »
Didn't really want to link it in an incomplete state, but sure.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Are Hard Exogalactic waves too hard?
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2011, 11:39:48 am »
Well, I tend to link them as soon as there's something there.  Some information is better than none, etc.
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Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Are Hard Exogalactic waves too hard?
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2011, 12:26:32 pm »
So...the absolute maximum strength of an Golem-Hard Exo-Wave is roughly ten times the strength of the first one?
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Are Hard Exogalactic waves too hard?
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2011, 12:43:23 pm »
I couldnt disagree more with that (I have 2 cents! ;)). The best defence is an as most concentrated defence as possible, imo. Get a fort, armor-stuff, golems, spirecraft and see if you can get that exo-wave to cross that planet that has all that on it.
Play a bit with gateraiding, each exo-wave will tell you just a little how you could guide it, effectivly allowing you to expand while the bulk of the exo-waves always hit that massivly reinforced front. It may take a few waves to concentrate it properly, but thats trivial as these waves get increasingly tougher as you see more of them, so the first few should not be that much of an issue (in general), where later ones could stomp you if you're not carefull.

Oh, I didn't see your response earlier! I love alternative strategies, and I'm glad to hear static defenses can work with some love. I normally expand too quickly to make gate raiding worthwhile, but I also intentionally try not to bunch up the exo waves because I face so many sources in my games. Having three exo-waves converge for a 6k total fleet is much worst*** then three independent waves of 2k striking three different places, in my opinion. But I fundamentally like staying mobile and flexible and my defense reflects this.

***EDIT: Unless your nuking. of course  8)
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 01:07:55 pm by chemical_art »
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Are Hard Exogalactic waves too hard?
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2011, 01:02:57 pm »
So...the absolute maximum strength of an Golem-Hard Exo-Wave is roughly ten times the strength of the first one?
From the wiki:

For "Broken Golems - Hard":

    The first "exo-wave" has a raw budget of 13,000 points.
    Each wave after that is 25% bigger than the previous wave.
    The maximum raw budget is 110,000 points.


110000 / 13000 = ~8.46

So I get 8.46 stronger. It takes 12 waves to get to that maximum strength, from what I gather.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Are Hard Exogalactic waves too hard?
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2011, 01:10:01 pm »
So...the absolute maximum strength of an Golem-Hard Exo-Wave is roughly ten times the strength of the first one?
From the wiki:

For "Broken Golems - Hard":

    The first "exo-wave" has a raw budget of 13,000 points.
    Each wave after that is 25% bigger than the previous wave.
    The maximum raw budget is 110,000 points.


110000 / 13000 = ~8.46

So I get 8.46 stronger. It takes 12 waves to get to that maximum strength, from what I gather.
Yea, 12 waves sounds right.  Once you hit that "cap" the challenge increases as your AIP increases because those waves come closer together.  If you only have 200 AIP it takes over 9 hours to charge a max-budget wave.  If you have 1000 AIP it only takes a bit under 2 hours.

The FS ones are generally more brutal due to the higher cap and higher rate of increase.  On the bright side, if you're holding off the FS exos then you can often go nuts on "spending" AIP because the normal AI won't be much of a threat and AIP doesn't affect the FS exos.  Of course, if you're also playing with one of the other two sources that _are_ driven by AIP ... ;)
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Are Hard Exogalactic waves too hard?
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2011, 01:34:04 pm »
Of course, if you're also playing with one of the other two sources that _are_ driven by AIP ... ;)

The more I come to understand the magic behind the curtain, the more I come to understand how difficult yet fun I make things for myself...

It is a challenge when being pushed back by waves of different sources. Sometimes in order to get stronger I have to jack up the AIP, which usually catches up later in increased difficulty which then forces me to jack up AIP even higher...It quickly leads to an AIP spiral that results in intense gains as I also quickly gain power.

In my brief experience the only way to beat multiple waves is too keep strong momentum because the process of getting stronger jacks up the waves, but doing nothing also causes them to get stronger as well. If you ever slow down enough that you can't advance, you are done.
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Offline Fruden

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Re: Are Hard Exogalactic waves too hard?
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2011, 11:34:03 pm »
 Aren't there occasional "super" exo golem waves too? I save at 99% exo golem since i received this exo wave once: 3 artillery golems, 2 regenerator golems, 2 armored golems, 55 bomber starships mk4, 40 raid starships mk3, and ~100 other starships. I guess i did ok all things considered, but when i reloaded at 99%, instead of that i got 3 small attack groups that between them in total had less than a third of that.

Offline Commiesalami

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Re: Are Hard Exogalactic waves too hard?
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2011, 03:05:50 am »
Aren't there occasional "super" exo golem waves too? I save at 99% exo golem since i received this exo wave once: 3 artillery golems, 2 regenerator golems, 2 armored golems, 55 bomber starships mk4, 40 raid starships mk3, and ~100 other starships. I guess i did ok all things considered, but when i reloaded at 99%, instead of that i got 3 small attack groups that between them in total had less than a third of that.

I'm going to have trouble sleeping tonight .... 

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Are Hard Exogalactic waves too hard?
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2011, 09:58:17 am »
Aren't there occasional "super" exo golem waves too? I save at 99% exo golem since i received this exo wave once: 3 artillery golems, 2 regenerator golems, 2 armored golems, 55 bomber starships mk4, 40 raid starships mk3, and ~100 other starships. I guess i did ok all things considered, but when i reloaded at 99%, instead of that i got 3 small attack groups that between them in total had less than a third of that.

That's a pretty nasty one, wow.  But it's not that it had a higher total budget, it was just one of those referred to by the (current) last line of the wiki article:

Quote
One important point for this article is that the Golems and Spirecraft variants have a certain chance to use an alternate allocation that puts more of the budget into the lead ship, and/or concentrates the whole strikeforce into a single battlegroup.

Initially it was always using the same allocation and the same make-multiple-strikeforces logic as FS exos.  But the golem and spirecraft waves just have an overall lower magnitude than the FS waves, in general (once you've got two cities in FS your max-cap is higher than either of the other two sources can ever be, and it only gets much worse from there).  So people were finding it too easy since they knew the exos would just spread out a bit and kind of splat on the fairly beefy defenses they'd built up.  So I gave it a random chance of doing something very different so you couldn't predict exactly what it was going to do and had to accommodate some degree of uncertainty.

Of course, it makes it prime save-scumming time since you can easily "force" it to do one or the other that way.  But that doesn't bother me too much, strong exos tend to leave the player with no choice but to save-scum until they've gotten used to the mechanic :)
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Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Are Hard Exogalactic waves too hard?
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2011, 02:07:41 pm »
No, Save-Scumming is SIN!  ;)
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Are Hard Exogalactic waves too hard?
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2011, 02:09:33 pm »
No, Save-Scumming is SIN!  ;)
Though I bet Eve really really would have liked to reload from before the serpent ;)
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Offline Fruden

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Re: Are Hard Exogalactic waves too hard?
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2011, 02:18:38 pm »
Aren't there occasional "super" exo golem waves too? I save at 99% exo golem since i received this exo wave once: 3 artillery golems, 2 regenerator golems, 2 armored golems, 55 bomber starships mk4, 40 raid starships mk3, and ~100 other starships. I guess i did ok all things considered, but when i reloaded at 99%, instead of that i got 3 small attack groups that between them in total had less than a third of that.

That's a pretty nasty one, wow.  But it's not that it had a higher total budget, it was just one of those referred to by the (current) last line of the wiki article:

Quote
One important point for this article is that the Golems and Spirecraft variants have a certain chance to use an alternate allocation that puts more of the budget into the lead ship, and/or concentrates the whole strikeforce into a single battlegroup.

 Yeah i had read the forums and stuff and that's what i knew it was supposed to do, but when i reloaded i got 3 pretty wimpy attacks by comparison (instead of total 7 golems and ~200 starships i had a total or 3 golems and ~60 starships). I have repeated the experiment of reloading with an exo wave at 99% to see if total attack power can differ significantly and it certainly did, just not to such an extent.

Quote
Initially it was always using the same allocation and the same make-multiple-strikeforces logic as FS exos.  But the golem and spirecraft waves just have an overall lower magnitude than the FS waves, in general (once you've got two cities in FS your max-cap is higher than either of the other two sources can ever be, and it only gets much worse from there).  So people were finding it too easy since they knew the exos would just spread out a bit and kind of splat on the fairly beefy defenses they'd built up.  So I gave it a random chance of doing something very different so you couldn't predict exactly what it was going to do and had to accommodate some degree of uncertainty.

Of course, it makes it prime save-scumming time since you can easily "force" it to do one or the other that way.  But that doesn't bother me too much, strong exos tend to leave the player with no choice but to save-scum until they've gotten used to the mechanic :)

 I don't mind the big assaults, they are in fact very fun since even at 900aip in a lv9 game with 5 entry points in my territory, with all the stuff i have (everything except the spire stuff basically, that's my big game i started last year and only play a few minutes here and there, it's more or less in the already won just have to grind down the end category) "regular" attack groups (3-4 groups each with one golem and a few dozen starships) don't hurt much anymore, so the big ones provide some good fights for my own golem groups. It's just that once in a while the big single exo golem wave is double the size of a regular big single exo golem wave, and in that special case, it was like 3 times the size of regular big single exo golem waves.

 Oh, i guess i should have filed it but it's so hilarious i never did, but every once in a while my artillery golem goes all frenzy and will shoot something like 15-20 bullets within a minute, but i've only ever seen it do that vs exo golem waves (but it means if that choke point receives a small exo golem attack group the artillery golem single handedly destroys it all when it triggers). Sadly that choke point has never received a big single attack group, maybe next time! Anyway, the recharge bar will start counting down as usual and then instantly finish charging up, sometimes shooting multiple times within a single second.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Are Hard Exogalactic waves too hard?
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2011, 02:28:41 pm »
I have repeated the experiment of reloading with an exo wave at 99% to see if total attack power can differ significantly and it certainly did, just not to such an extent.
Hmm.  Well, if you enabled advanced logging on the advanced tab of the settings menu, each exo wave spawn will write its composition data to a special log file in your RuntimeData directory.  That will tell us how it spent those points and show us if there's actually a big discrepancy in the totals :)

Quote
Oh, i guess i should have filed it but it's so hilarious i never did, but every once in a while my artillery golem goes all frenzy and will shoot something like 15-20 bullets within a minute

Ah, must be some code in there like

Quote
if(this.GetAmIBored() && this.GetIsAnybodyWatching())
    this.ActivateCookieMonsterMode();

;)


But thanks for letting us know, I'll keep an eye out for that insta-reloading behavior.

Are you sure the shots are actually hitting something?  There's an "overkill refund" mechanic whereby a shot that is self-destructed in midair because its target has died before it could reach it (which happens tons if something pops through a wormhole into a massive turret cluster or whatever) causes the firing ship to reload really fast.  It's totally unrealistic but also relieves a lot of pressure for more sophisticated "should I even bother firing at target xyz" logic.

(edit: note that we wound up removing that refund logic for multi-shot ships since it was leading to Artillery Guardians [not golems] spewing forth this endless torrent of pain when it started killing stuff)
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