Are Hard Exogalactic waves too hard?

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, the number of massive ships is only a very very general impression.  But it is helpful to know that some heavy hitters are coming.  Iirc it also displays an FP (firepower) number with that; it's also not terribly precise, but if it says "20 Massive Ships (0 FP)" or less than 100 FP or whatever then it's probably just a lot of ships on the very low end of what's classified as "massive".  If it has some crazy number for FP then yea, you've got pain coming   But even the Armored Golem can be shredded with enough offense; all the really big ships are fairly offense-heavy in the sense that they can't long endure the kind of firepower they dish out.  At least that's been true when I've played with exos on (mainly FS).

[Sunshine!]

Exos are definitely beatable, but you need a nice giant toolbox of responses, and you need to know which response is the correct one, and when.  People never seem to use Implosion Artillery, but when it comes down to dealing with golems these things are pretty much your best friends.  On the other hand, for those waves where it's a pile of little ships and two implosion artillery, I'd much rather have a giant fleet of siege towers.

One thing to keep in mind is that enabling both Golems - Hard and Spirecraft - Hard will make the game at least twice as difficult.  You have the same number of resources, which are already probably strained by mid-game dealing with a single exogalactic wave, and now you've got a double size exogalactic wave coming every cycle.  It'll punch far, far larger holes in your defenses, and then you end up with the AI threat pouring in with far greater effect because you couldn't handle the exogalactic wave in a survivable fashion.  If the exogalactic waves and a normal AI wave sync up, you're just screwwwwed.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Remember that the way exowaves work you will never been in a secure static position vs them. they will always be getting tougher, and eventually theyll be getting tougher far faster than you can gain strength.   If you have exo waves on and they are getting too tough to handle you must absolutely endeavour to win the game ASAP. 

if you're really concerned try starting the game with zenith polarizers.. theyre absolute death on the really tough stuff. ^^

[keith.lamothe]

if you're really concerned try starting the game with zenith polarizers.. theyre absolute death on the really tough stuff. ^^

Haha, yea, they really chew things up.  I capped their multipler a while ago to keep them from being asymptotically insane against stuff like the armored golem, but I imagine they're still pretty brutal

[Nalgas]

People never seem to use Implosion Artillery, but when it comes down to dealing with golems these things are pretty much your best friends.

I <3 those against large targets like that.  They were the main spire ship I regularly kept around other than martyrs in my last game, because while they're basically worthless against normal ships, they take such huge bites out of the big ones that are otherwise a pain to take down with your normal fleet ships and defenses.

[Red Spot]

Well, you also get them on either Hard Golems or Hard Spirecraft, I'm not sure which is being used here.  But yea, they're supposed to be pretty hard.  Though I'm a bit surprised at this comment because all the other recent negative comments I've heard on their difficulty (that I remember right now) were of the form "Hard is actually easier than Medium", so I certainly haven't been looking to decrease their challenge.

Anyway, the golem/spirecraft waves are "charged" by AIP, so keep an eye on that.  The Fallen-Spire ones are not related to AIP.

I was one to state that. It has to be seen in a certain context though.

When I want to max out my fleet, spirecraft/golems on medium make you break you economic backbone, as you drain every last bit of energy using them. Combined with the financial impact it could leave you with a fleet you cant use all at the same time while you also dont have the resources to fight an 'expendable war'.
In that regard, -hard- is easier than -medium- as on hard to just have to get that huge fleet back home and do some gate-raiding to keep the inlets for exo-waves to a minimum and you have enough firepower to stop the exowaves dead in their tracks, AND also much more firepower during the neutering of planets (the last bit makes it 'overall' easier, when you get past the exo-waves .. but once you get the hang of it you can 'guide' those).

The best defense for exo-waves is a rolling, or layered, defense. Since you don't exactly where the wave will hit, you can't park your fleet expecting to hit them right at the start. There is a delay. and for late games you simply can't get enough units in the right place sometimes. If you intentionally don't fight hard for the first world hit, but fight hard the world after, you can buy enough time to let your own major fleet meet up and fight back.

I couldnt disagree more with that (I have 2 cents! ). The best defence is an as most concentrated defence as possible, imo. Get a fort, armor-stuff, golems, spirecraft and see if you can get that exo-wave to cross that planet that has all that on it.
Play a bit with gateraiding, each exo-wave will tell you just a little how you could guide it, effectivly allowing you to expand while the bulk of the exo-waves always hit that massivly reinforced front. It may take a few waves to concentrate it properly, but thats trivial as these waves get increasingly tougher as you see more of them, so the first few should not be that much of an issue (in general), where later ones could stomp you if you're not carefull.

Alright, by the looks of it I'll have to give it another go. Still, I wonder if 20+ Massive AI ships will ever be stoppable by any defense. I mean, I would like to hear other players remarks on that.

I seem to have deleted the screenshots but I posted about a game FS-game I played, where I took each and every planet on a 120 planet map before I took the AIs homeplanets. I let the exact number be a surpise to you but it will surelly be a wee bit larger than 20 massive ships

if you're really concerned try starting the game with zenith polarizers.. theyre absolute death on the really tough stuff. ^^

They are cool, personally I like the Vultures (iirc) more. They also work vs fleetship and such

Exos are definitely beatable, but you need a nice giant toolbox of responses, and you need to know which response is the correct one, and when.  People never seem to use Implosion Artillery, but when it comes down to dealing with golems these things are pretty much your best friends.  On the other hand, for those waves where it's a pile of little ships and two implosion artillery, I'd much rather have a giant fleet of siege towers.

I would have agreed with you for a 100%, before I tried rams. Implosion Arties do an awesome job if you can let the target stick around for some time, which doesnt tend to be the case when you get hit by (multiple) armored golems. Rams near a gate will eat up Golems in no-time, you just need to keep them away from the frag untill the very last second or they get shot or autotarget the first starship they spot.

Edit: end of edits...

[Philo]

Hmm ok. So do you guys play with both spire and golems on hard? And everything else on too. Cause that's how I play. I'm gonna try, hope it's not impossible.

Though I have one suggestion for the mods. Could it be possible that the amount of massive ships stayed the same but the escorting fleet would correlate with the AIP numbers. Since right now it's only mark IV and V ships.

[keith.lamothe]

Hmm ok. So do you guys play with both spire and golems on hard? And everything else on too. Cause that's how I play. I'm gonna try, hope it's not impossible.

If you play with ALL minor factions (hard versions for those with versions) and AI plots on you will probably just die.  I mean, it's possible but quite capable of producing impossible situations.  Two (much less 3) sources of exo-waves is possibly too much by itself.  Not to say it isn't fun, but at that point you're really asking for it   Of course, if you survive then the combination of Golems, Spirecraft, and FS-ships could basically stomp any normal AI resistance.

Though I have one suggestion for the mods. Could it be possible that the amount of massive ships stayed the same but the escorting fleet would correlate with the AIP numbers. Since right now it's only mark IV and V ships.

Well, it actually can use the lower-mark ships in theory, in that if the point-budget of an exo is small enough it will use lower mark ships for the pickets (the higher mark ones cost more).  But in practice it doesn't start sending exos until the budgets are higher, and it has a finite number of pickets it's allowed to choose (to keep individual battlegroups from being thousands of ships big).  The conceptual reason the AI is using its elite forces for these without respect for what it's normally sending against the human is that it's responding against a threat it perceives to be fundamentally worse than the general human presence (at least early/mid game).

[Solarity]

Hmmm, Keith, it could be fun later on if once the Ai detects your at a significantly higher tech it swarms you with tech 1 units in an attempt to overwelm you, or because its trying really hard to get that last "biggest loss" achievment...

[Shrugging Khan]

Now I'll have to ask...

Do successive Exo-Waves grow stronger even WITHOUT AIP increase?

[chemical_art]

Hmm ok. So do you guys play with both spire and golems on hard? And everything else on too. Cause that's how I play. I'm gonna try, hope it's not impossible.

I've done a 7.6 / 8.3 AI game with all three sources of exo waves on. It was usually awesome, but every once in a while the three waves converged and that always made for some hairy situations. During those times, I usually was buying time on two fronts while my fleet quickly destroyed the third wave. My fleet would then scramble to my own core planets as they rallied with the new units being re made at factories to defeat the slow but steady stream of AI that pierced my outer core.

It was worth it though, but only because I actively used all the tools that those exowaves were caused from. Having golems, spire craft, and true spire capital ships working in tandem is the only way to make things work.

Now I'll have to ask...

Do successive Exo-Waves grow stronger even WITHOUT AIP increase?

They get 20% stronger but come 20% slower, from what I understand. There is an eventual cap on the strength, but that is usually enough to stomp you.

[Philo]

Glad someone's been able to finish it. Found out something remarkable too. Neither of my playing partners had been using attack or defense mode commands properly. They'd just pressed x or v, then right click. Instead of x+right click or v+right click. Needless to say we played much better this time.
We might actually make it this time.

I always wondered how they we doing so poorly against small waves lot of the time

[x4000]

That would really make a big difference!

[Shrugging Khan]

They get 20% stronger but come 20% slower, from what I understand. There is an eventual cap on the strength, but that is usually enough to stomp you.

Understand; with my 40+ hour games, I reach all caps like those eventually. Does anyone have the numbers on them?

[keith.lamothe]

They get 20% stronger but come 20% slower, from what I understand. There is an eventual cap on the strength, but that is usually enough to stomp you.

Understand; with my 40+ hour games, I reach all caps like those eventually. Does anyone have the numbers on them?

Yes, and I finally took the time to put them in a wiki article

http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_How_Exogalactic_Strikeforces_Work

Let me know what questions you have that that doesn't answer, and I can try to fill it in as I have time.