Author Topic: AI & Rebuilding defence on planets  (Read 2069 times)

Offline Cintia

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AI & Rebuilding defence on planets
« on: November 30, 2009, 03:48:25 AM »
Hello,

I've got a question about the AI and how it's rebuilding the planets.

Since the AI doesn't use regular metal/crystal resources, what happens when you destroy everything on a planet besides the Orbital Station and warpgate?

1) When new units start guarding the planet, where do these units come from? Does the AI gain new 'free' (aka some form of 'cheating') or do these units come from other planets which means there is less defence on those other planets?

2) When the AI is rebuilding turrets on the planet, at what 'cost' is it comming from? Again: does it mean less defence on other planets or less waves send, or <anything>?

I guess what I'm asking is whether it is useful in neutering an AI planets defences even if you don't particular need to pass through that planet.

Offline RCIX

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Re: AI & Rebuilding defence on planets
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2009, 04:33:59 AM »
Technically (e.g. "behind the curtains"), the ai is getting "free" ships. The lore goes though that it is warping in reinforcements from a vast out-of-galaxy fleet.

The AI gets a "budget" of ships to spend per reinforcement period, ffurther restricted by per-planet caps which go down the less guard stations are on a planet.
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Offline Cintia

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Re: AI & Rebuilding defence on planets
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2009, 04:41:05 AM »
Technically (e.g. "behind the curtains"), the ai is getting "free" ships. The lore goes though that it is warping in reinforcements from a vast out-of-galaxy fleet.

The AI gets a "budget" of ships to spend per reinforcement period, ffurther restricted by per-planet caps which go down the less guard stations are on a planet.

So destroying every unit on a planet far far away where you'll never go to anymore is completely pointless? As in: it won't weaken the AI (on other planets) in any way.
I understand the game is different than typical RTS' and I really enjoy it but this seems a little bit odd.


{Edit:}
Another related question:

3) Lets say I don't want to take a planet but it acts as a portal planet (a way to reach other places or connects my other planets). What if I put up like 150 sniper turrets on the edge of the planet where I already killed all the units. This will whipe out most of the new units/turrets that are being build. Will this constant killing raise any kind of AI awareness? Will they get fed up with it and send a large fleet to whipe out my turrets eventually or will they just continue building (in vein) like normal?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 04:50:32 AM by Cintia »

Offline RCIX

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Re: AI & Rebuilding defence on planets
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2009, 05:34:28 AM »
To my understanding, yes you should leave planets you don't need (to go through) alone.

Regarding your other planet, 150 sniper turrets will do an ok job but over time the AI will reinforce with anti-sniper turrets making them less effective over time. The best bet is to secure all relevant wormholes with turret balls, an anti-sniper defense and couple of engineers so your ships have safe passage.

(True story: i used raid starships extensively and after a short while the AI was reinforcing with an abnormally high percentage of anti-starship arachnids)
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Offline Haagenti

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Re: AI & Rebuilding defence on planets
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2009, 05:39:33 AM »
Regarding your other planet, 150 sniper turrets will do an ok job but over time the AI will reinforce with anti-sniper turrets making them less effective over time. The best bet is to secure all relevant wormholes with turret balls, an anti-sniper defense and couple of engineers so your ships have safe passage.

And as this will use a lot of your available resources, you may also consider killing the Orbital as this will stop them reinforcing.
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Offline Ktoff

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Re: AI & Rebuilding defence on planets
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2009, 05:53:08 AM »
There is also one small exception to this. Yes, the AI 'cheats' as in it does not have to build ships. But the reinforcement points it gets are also some kind of resource. The reinforcement points are limited, and their effectiveness is determined by the number of guard posts and wormholes on a given planet.

What you can try on far away/uninteresting planets is to force the AI to spend reinforcement points there and not where you actually want to operate. The AI reinforces mainly planets which are on alert. So by putting planets far away on alert, you can 'suck up' a little reinforcement there.

Example (linear galaxy)  A1--A2--A3--D--A4--A5--H--A6--A7--C

So you are on H, C is the AI core planet A are normal AI planets. Now assume the AI gets 4 AI reinforcement points per minute (or something to that effect). Then normally 2 would go to A5 and 2 to A6 which blocks your way to the Core planet. By destroying (or taking, the important thing is the destruction of the orbital command station) the planet D, the AI feals threatened on A3 and A4 too and will divert part of its reinforcements there. This means less reinforcements to the other planets (so in this example 1 point to each threatened planet).

With each reinforcement point, every reinforcable structure gets reinforcements (so guard posts, wormholes, command station, ...). By raiding the guard posts you will further diminish the amount of ships the AI gets. (remember: it does not get 50 ships, it gets 1 reinforcements). So attacking planets you are not interested in can be a valid strategy, but usually the effort is not worth the benefit if there is no further incentive to take that planet. (Well here you could take the planet and gather the knowledge around the planet and then abandon it)

Offline Cintia

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Re: AI & Rebuilding defence on planets
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2009, 06:36:07 AM »
Ah thanks, that clears things up a bit.

Any idea on how many reinforcements points the AI usually gets and what factors raise/lower it?

Also; is there a cap of reinforcements where the AI says "Enough" and either attacks with the remains or automatically reinforces other planets?

Offline Ktoff

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Re: AI & Rebuilding defence on planets
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2009, 07:05:59 AM »
Any idea on how many reinforcements points the AI usually gets and what factors raise/lower it?

Also; is there a cap of reinforcements where the AI says "Enough" and either attacks with the remains or automatically reinforces other planets?
The number of reinforcement points is related to the AI progress and (i think) to the type of AI, though maybe the latter only influences the reinforcement logic.

There is a per planet unit cap which is related to the number of guard posts/wormholes etc. i do not know the exact number, but it is something like 500 per guard post (maybe this depends on other factors as well). Once a planet is 'full' it cannot be reinforced anymore and reinforcement goes elsewhere.

Offline x4000

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Re: AI & Rebuilding defence on planets
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2009, 11:57:46 AM »
For detailed information on why the AI uses an internal reinforcement points system, please see my article Designing Emergent AI, Part 4: Asymmetrical Goals.  That should make that whole aspect a lot more clear, hopefully.

For more detailed information on how reinforcements work, please see the wiki:  http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_AI_Reinforcements

Hope that helps!
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Offline Kjara

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Re: AI & Rebuilding defence on planets
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2009, 03:26:25 PM »
Woot my terminology is catching on :).

In short what I generally try to do is stick 1 turret ball(usually about 10 laser 2's, 10 missile 1's 10 mrls and 10 basics + anti-sniper,engineer,mobile builder and power plant) to keep the wormhole you will be generally be entering the planet from clear (as I find I take the largest losses from that).  Assuming you move your reinforcements in large enough groups, they should be able to take out the exit wormhole defenders with minimal losses provided you use the planet reasonably often(so they don't build up too badly).  To avoid losses when possible though I tend to move my production facilities forward as I push forward so I don't have to travel through these intermediate planets much once I've captured a forward planet.  Once I have the forward base, the main point of the turret ball is mainly to defend the power plant I build there for efficiency reasons and as a forward defense for my planets(as they tend to pull crossplanet attacks--you will lose one or two every cross planet attack, but they aren't that hard to replace if you move quick to replace them).  The key is to not sink too many resources into each one(mainly the turret limits are the main limiter here), but make each one expensive enough for the computer to overcome that you don't have to replace too many.

Anyhow, if you want an example of what I tend to do(though its a bit more extreme than is generally necessary) check out my aar here: http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,2109.0.html (load up one of the intermediate saves for an example of what I throw up on non-captured planets).