Author Topic: Proposal: AI-player distinct AIP/HaP  (Read 2918 times)

Offline Traveller

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Proposal: AI-player distinct AIP/HaP
« on: May 26, 2015, 05:59:09 PM »
If we're hacking up and modifying the game, this seems very technically possible (just a huge slog to do since it needs changes all over the place and a lot of fussy design decisions).

What if AIP and HaP were different per AI player?  Your actions only impact the AIP of the player who owns the planet you did them on.  Capture a bunch of red planets and the red AI gets super angry...and if you multiply the impact of AIP by 2x, then your strategy will need to balance which AI you anger.  If one AI has most of the turret controllers, you have to be even pickier and choosier about which ones you take.  Low AIP games get even more strategic decisions.  You could play low AIP against one player, high AIP against the other, and plan to kill off the high AIP one first.

Lots of fiddly bits: surely some things will impact both players (like attacking core worlds).  Some things need to be balanced, like ARS and data center placement should be relatively even between the AI players.  One AI gets coprocessors and the other gets the Superterminal, stuff like that.  Once you kill off an AI player, AIP that would go to them might want to get partly assigned to the other one.  Stuff like that.

(I keep dreaming of three AI players, but that's its own issue.)

Interesting to anyone?

Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Proposal: AI-player distinct AIP/HaP
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2015, 06:04:15 PM »
Interesting, yes.

But likely too complicated for new players, and too much work for our overburdened Devs.
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Offline CaptainTaz

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Re: Proposal: AI-player distinct AIP/HaP
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2015, 07:39:14 PM »
I'd love to see this as a mod or an addon. It could add a whole new depth for strategy.

And yet another way for me to screw myself over.
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Offline Traveller

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Re: Proposal: AI-player distinct AIP/HaP
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2015, 08:27:34 PM »
Being a complicated waste of time that might only be fun to a few advanced players is exactly why I put this in mods, not as a suggestion to devs.  It would be really ambitious, but if we're to the point of decompiling stuff, then why not...

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Proposal: AI-player distinct AIP/HaP
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2015, 09:00:28 PM »
Being a complicated waste of time that might only be fun to a few advanced players is exactly why I put this in mods, not as a suggestion to devs.  It would be really ambitious, but if we're to the point of decompiling stuff, then why not...


We are at the point of changing variable declarations, not actual functions. And certainly not building the whole project.
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Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Proposal: AI-player distinct AIP/HaP
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2015, 05:59:38 AM »
Feasibility isn't my point. The intend of Red.Queen is to test ideas and Arcen refuse the mod path for the sake of game's integrity and consistency (decisions that might sound hard but that I totally agree with).

Likely too complicated for new players, and too much work for our overburdened Devs.
Being a complicated waste of time that might only be fun to a few advanced players is exactly why I put this in mods, not as a suggestion to devs.

Maybe it's because I am an advanced player (albeit I don't think so) but I love this idea. Adding depth and complexity to a game that is already very deep and complex pleases me a lot, and I think many AI War players play this game because of (thanks to) its depth/complexity. So we would be all "advanced players" in that regard.

Also, Chris and Keith are super-busy with SBR now, for sure, but there is a time where they will come back to AI War. We all know the next expansion isn't for tomorrow, but it will come. "Overburdened Devs" is irrelevant. However, I'm sensible to the question of wave of time. Is giving depth/complexity to players that embraced this game for depth/complexity a waste of time? I don't think so. But it is, indeed, a big suggestion. I think ideas like more independent AIs or even a third AI are ideas we should consider seriously and not wiping them on thoughts like "not fun to me: don't bother devs with it".

Now, my contribution to the idea.
I want to raise a deeper problem (at least it's a problem for me): in general, the two AIs are too indistinguishable. I would hammer the problem by the side of personalities and AI Types. I unearthed a post of mine about AI Types. While this is not directly linked to the idea of having two different AIP pools, I believe a revamp on the AI Type topic would also participate at distinguishing better the AIs.

More specifically on your idea, Traveller, I think making AIP per AI isn't a big coding hassle if we can come up with a neat project. What would this idea involve? Instead of having one gloval AIP value, each AI has one. Easy. The HUD display these two values instead of only one. Easy. What increase AIP? Some building on death (they would increase their controlling AI's AIP), the Auto-AIP (increase both ; we can have two Auto-AIP settings) and some special human actions like warheads (increase both). Fine. Then where is AIP used? In reinforcement and waves, for both quantity and Tech Level (each AI use its own AIP pool instead of the global), and I think it's all. I see no big problem or coding hassle.

You point some other interesting issues, like who get the AIP reducers. While evenly distributing DataCenters sounds trivial, you raise the issue of the CoProcessors and the SuperTerminal. This is a matter of design and balance, and while we could find tons of ideas and debate for eons on what and how, I think we can reasonably let it as an open question that will wait its time to be solved. However, no big work here, just a delicate tweaking.

TL;DR:
Interesting to anyone?
Yes: me!
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: Proposal: AI-player distinct AIP/HaP
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2015, 08:37:30 AM »
But likely too complicated for new players
This kind of thinking has led to dumbing down numerous games series and games in general. AI War isn't everyone's cup of tea to begin with and it doesn't need to be and it shouldn't be.

And yes I love this idea. This would go well with the dual AI type system that came with vengeance of the machine. Maybe you could also switch this feature on and off. This could be a feature for the next expansion.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 08:41:32 AM by Kahuna »
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Proposal: AI-player distinct AIP/HaP
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2015, 08:55:11 AM »
This kind of thinking has led to dumbing down numerous games series and games in general. AI War isn't everyone's cup of tea to begin with and it doesn't need to be and it shouldn't be.
Alright. I take everything back. Just looking at CivV or Star Ruler 2...you're right.
New players better put in some effort and get a valuable learning experience; if anyone wants it easy they can go play one of those press-x-to-win-games.

Seriously.
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Offline Radiant Phoenix

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Re: Proposal: AI-player distinct AIP/HaP
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2015, 10:36:44 AM »
I'm not entirely certain that this change would align with all the current Lore in the various Journal entries.

I also don't think it would fit well in the current UI, but that's scheduled to be overhauled at some point, so as long as the overhaul happens first, and leaves a good place to put the second HaP and AIP display, we're cool on that front.

On-off switch seems like it might be good too.

Offline Kahuna

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Re: Proposal: AI-player distinct AIP/HaP
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2015, 12:21:14 PM »
This kind of thinking has led to dumbing down numerous games series and games in general. AI War isn't everyone's cup of tea to begin with and it doesn't need to be and it shouldn't be.
Alright. I take everything back. Just looking at CivV or Star Ruler 2...you're right.
New players better put in some effort and get a valuable learning experience; if anyone wants it easy they can go play one of those press-x-to-win-games.

Seriously.
My sarcasm detector beeped while reading this.

Anyway, there's no need to change your opinion just because I said something. By all means feel free to disagree. I meant that in my opinion if the developer tries to please everyone it's going to affect negatively on the outcome.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 12:42:42 PM by Kahuna »
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Proposal: AI-player distinct AIP/HaP
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2015, 01:17:40 PM »
Argh. I added the Seriously specifically so as to avoid giving off any false sarcasm. I was actually serious, my actual opinion is closer to yours than to the one I originally stated, which I was wrong about.

In these days of trolling it's kind of hard to be straightforward.
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until morale improves!

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Proposal: AI-player distinct AIP/HaP
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2015, 06:20:12 AM »
Well. Very good. I added another entry in my "proposals for next AI War expansion". I can't wait for Chris and Keith to ask us... When they'll be done with SBR (and maybe with "life at the end of the universe").

 :D
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