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General Category => AI War Classic => AI War Classic - Mods & Modding => Topic started by: HitmanN on March 01, 2010, 06:04:56 PM

Title: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: HitmanN on March 01, 2010, 06:04:56 PM
(I hope this is where stuff like this goes. Not a mod though.)

Since I originally suggested the Heavy Turret addition, I figured I should at least try and suggest GFX for it. Here's a little something I just made.

Inspiration: Dreadnought (brown/grey colours) , since I imagined the weapon of the turret being similar to Dreadnought's.
Size: Bigger than 'normal' turrets, smaller than Ion Cannon. (as far as image files go, small turrets seem to be 32x32, ion cannon is 256x256, but takes the space of roughly 128x128, so I based the size on 64x64.

No colour masks or other mark versions yet. Can be added later if desired.

Let me know what you think. I've only sprited a few space things before, so I'm still noob-ish, I think.  :-X

EDIT:
Added mk2 and mk3
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: Ozymandiaz on March 02, 2010, 03:33:16 AM
I think it looks good.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: HellishFiend on March 02, 2010, 04:14:54 AM
Better than good, it looks terrific! Nice work!
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: HitmanN on March 02, 2010, 06:32:24 AM
Thanks, glad to hear that.  :D

I guess I'll see if I can conjure up mk2 and mk3 versions as well. ;)
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: HitmanN on March 02, 2010, 11:05:51 AM
Added mk2 and mk3 versions as well. They're mainly just expanded editions. The blue horizontal tubes near the center denote the tech level of the turret, and thus increases by 1 in each. Also the parts with blue light, near the tip of the barrel increase by one. The general idea is that with each tech level, the amount of energy storage for each shot is higher, allowing more powerful projectiles, while the main design remains the same throughout. Seems common with the many of the current turret designs. ;) If it's too boring though, I suppose the barrel could be made bigger, or maybe some additional parts added here and there for decoration.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 03, 2010, 11:21:14 PM
These look cool, thanks :)

I was thinking about making heavy turrets somewhat modular, to give the feeling of a more substantial defensive installation, but "starbase" might be a whole separate category of it's own, with heavy turrets just being bigger "normal" turrets.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: HitmanN on March 04, 2010, 06:39:07 AM
Yup, starbases sound more fortress-y, and I think it'd be a shame to make them turret-like. Something command station size would fit better for that, I think.

Anyways, I guess I should make the color masks for these too.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: HitmanN on March 04, 2010, 09:51:22 AM
And here are some colormasks for the turrets.

I also tested them in game (see attachment #4) by replacing the Lightning turrets (since they're 64x64 as well). Looks pretty good, if I may say so myself. :D I built some other mk1 turrets for comparison next to them. The Heavy Turrets should probably turn towards their targets like ion cannons though, instead of being still or rotating.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: vonduus on March 04, 2010, 10:20:30 AM
And here are some colormasks for the turrets.
Looks pretty good, if I may say so myself. :D

Let my say it for you: They look really good.  :)

+1
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 04, 2010, 04:59:27 PM
Looking good :)

Is there a thread with stats suggestions or shall I be creative?
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: Voodoomancer on March 04, 2010, 07:09:20 PM
Sweet.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: HitmanN on March 04, 2010, 07:44:27 PM
Looking good :)

Is there a thread with stats suggestions or shall I be creative?

No stats anywhere yet, I think.

But originally I was thinking simply turret version of dreadnought. Not sure where it'd end balance -wise if using similar stats. Normally turrets are stronger than the ship equivalents, but would the heavy turret be too powerful if given more power than dreadnought in similar ratio? Might need some testing first.

In the end, the heavy turret should feel noticeably more powerful than the other turrets, and the low build cap is what balances is out with other defenses. Oh, and the range should be at least somewhat higher than other turrets, so that we finally get some effective medium-to-long range defenses, other than snipers and spiders. ;)

That's my view of a heavy turret anyhow. :P Basically it's stationary artillery. Maybe low HP, so it's weak without proper support? Would help a bit also when attacking AI planets that have lots of 'em heavy turrets.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 04, 2010, 10:47:30 PM
I'm thinking maybe a beam turret would fill a weaponry gap too.  But the stats could be similar to a stationary dreadnought, appropriately buffed for the "stationary" part.

In general the normal turrets are buffed normal ships that can't move.  I'm thinking of heavy turrets as having a similar relationship to starships, so they could cost what a dreadnought costs (and take a similar time to build).  Were you thinking maybe a bit smaller scale than that?

As for HP I think I'll keep that pretty high but give stuff strong against heavy defenses some significant bonus against them (but nothing like their bonus against heavy defenses proper).  Of course, if you'd prefer a glass-cannon concept for this particular line we could do that too.  Probably can't go too overboard on that though since the AI probably won't realize it should focus on them.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: HitmanN on March 04, 2010, 11:08:33 PM
In general the normal turrets are buffed normal ships that can't move.  I'm thinking of heavy turrets as having a similar relationship to starships, so they could cost what a dreadnought costs (and take a similar time to build).  Were you thinking maybe a bit smaller scale than that?

Actually, that sounds good. I was probably thinking of something slightly smaller scale, but what the heck, might as well make 'em considerably different from the other turrets while we're at it. ;D

As for HP I think I'll keep that pretty high but give stuff strong against heavy defenses some significant bonus against them (but nothing like their bonus against heavy defenses proper).  Of course, if you'd prefer a glass-cannon concept for this particular line we could do that too.  Probably can't go too overboard on that though since the AI probably won't realize it should focus on them.

Sounds good too. High HP would fit a starship equivalent well. I was mainly thinking low HP would make it easier for players when the AI has the turrets. Since there's no cap, unlike for a human player, I could imagine turrets like these becoming a major pain. But perhaps just not give the AI too many of them altogether, then the choice of HP level won't make much of a difference.  :P

EDIT:
Or maybe make the mk1 HP low, and mk2 and mk3 to have significant increase. Kinda like Frigates' HP goes.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 04, 2010, 11:28:42 PM
The ship cap (or a related variable, I forget) does impact how many the AI gets when it gets them as reinforcements.  Not a cap, per se, but it maintains rough proportionality.

And having the MkIs with low HPs sounds like a good idea.  Basically a "budget" low-end version that still packs a punch; the corners were cut elsewhere.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: RCIX on March 05, 2010, 04:21:27 AM
The ship cap (or a related variable, I forget) does impact how many the AI gets when it gets them as reinforcements.  Not a cap, per se, but it maintains rough proportionality.

And having the MkIs with low HPs sounds like a good idea.  Basically a "budget" low-end version that still packs a punch; the corners were cut elsewhere.
Tell that to me after seeing how many Sentinel frigates reinforced on some planets :)
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: HitmanN on March 05, 2010, 06:44:20 AM
The ship cap (or a related variable, I forget) does impact how many the AI gets when it gets them as reinforcements.  Not a cap, per se, but it maintains rough proportionality.

And having the MkIs with low HPs sounds like a good idea.  Basically a "budget" low-end version that still packs a punch; the corners were cut elsewhere.
Tell that to me after seeing how many Sentinel frigates reinforced on some planets :)

Or the number of arachnids and snipers on a planet that I have a sniper/dreadnought beachhead on. I think the number of arachnids was nearing four digits, on a less than 2000 ship AI planet after couple of hours of bombardment. xP

There is some kind of selection logic there, right? If players have starships, they AI gets more arachnids? I just hope the AI won't decide it needs long range firepower and gets a dozen heavy turrets. O_o;
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: Ozymandiaz on March 05, 2010, 07:44:59 AM
Cool, might see this in a new beta soon then I take it? :)
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 05, 2010, 09:20:38 AM
Arachnids have special population logic, yes, which doesn't really relate to the ship caps at all.  Until relatively recently (pre 3.060) said logic was malfunctioning significantly in terms of reacting to relatively small numbers of starships, by the way.

As for the Sentinels, I don't know what to tell you, maybe it rolled Sentinel a *lot* :)

And yes, I'm hoping to get a heavy turret prototype into a beta soon, though I can't promise anything.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: MaxAstro on March 05, 2010, 12:52:29 PM
As for the Sentinels, I don't know what to tell you, maybe it rolled Sentinel a *lot* :)

Actually, this has always seemed a bit weird to me.  Almost any time the AI deploys Sentinel Frigates, they get them in incredible numbers.  It's not at all uncommon for me to see 200-ship planets with 40-50 Sentinel Frigates.  It gets kinda annoying after a while, to be honest.  It seems like the AI either has no Sentinel Frigates at all, or simply silly amounts of them.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 05, 2010, 01:14:23 PM
Hmm, I should check to see if it's having some sort of precision underflow or something like that.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: XRsyst on March 05, 2010, 05:09:49 PM
How about stats & abilities along the lines of the Core Zenith Beam Frigates.  Nice to have an insta dmg and a mild AoE.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 05, 2010, 05:12:16 PM
I'm going off the Beam Starship stats, actually, though we'll see how that works balance wise, ship cap, knowledge cost, etc.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 05, 2010, 05:24:50 PM
Ok, the prototype is working (those 2000 bombers were sure surprised to see red cylinders of death instead of the usual Riots from the past month). I still need to do some balancing before it's ready for beta.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: HitmanN on March 05, 2010, 07:15:11 PM
*Sits and waits patiently*  ;D
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 05, 2010, 11:31:18 PM
Ok, it's in for 3.081.

Basically they're balanced against the Laser turret line, except they cost significantly more knowledge (9000 total vs 5500), cost somewhat less metal/crystal/energy to build-to-cap, have a cap of 4 for each mark instead of 170, have about 1/8th single-target dps-to-cap (though the MkI beam turret beats this curve due to knowledge cost diff), and of course have the beam line-aoe attack.  I'm not sure how much the line-aoe counts for in real battle, but when properly used it can make that 1/8th dps thing look pretty generous.  When I tried to balance it as, say, 1/3rd dps things just died too ridiculously fast ;)  As is, building all 12 Heavy Beam Turrets on a single planet in a decent funneling situation makes it possible to do an extreme amount of damage.

Anyway, balance is tentative, particularly on the dps vs. aoe thing, so feel free to chime in after you get a chance to use them.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: HitmanN on March 06, 2010, 07:03:33 AM
Neat. Shall try them as soon as they're available, thanks.  ;D

I was originally thinking more of a 10-20 cap turret per mk level, but we can try these very heavy editions first. Afterall, if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing. :D
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 06, 2010, 02:32:37 PM
Yea, I'm trying for stationary starships here ;)  But we'll see; particularly if we put later effort towards really heavy defensive installations it might make more sense for these to be 10-cap instead of 4-cap (same total power-at-cap).
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: HitmanN on March 06, 2010, 02:49:44 PM
Or you could have the Heavy Turrets increase tons in damage, but also drop a lot in build cap.

Like
mk1: 1x damage, 30cap
mk2: 3x damage, 12cap
mk3: 6x damage, 7 cap

Something like that. It would also make each turret level suitable for different tasks. Having one mk3 isn't always better than a few mk1's.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 06, 2010, 06:57:50 PM
I'm not sure if there will be a prerelease tonight, but the new "Heavy Beam Cannon" line is shaping up fairly well.  I added an alternate beam mechanic for it to use, such that the beam starts off really really strong but loses power as it does damage (currently on a 1:1 ratio).  This allows me to pump the actual attack power back up to where I'd like it to be.  With the previous straight-up line-shaped aoe attack I had to keep it so low for balance that a mk I beam cannon only did 2x the damage of a mk III laser turret, which didn't fit in my mind since there's a 4:170 ratio of how much you can build.  Now it will vaporize a few bomber Is but not an arbitrary number that happened to be behind them.

FYI, my main balancing factor for dps-focused units like these is maintaining roughly the same "DPC-at-cap-per-K", that is:
Damage-per-cycle = attack-power / cycles-to-recharge (20 cycles per second)
cap = ship cap (170 for laser turrets, 4 for beam cannons)
K = knowledge cost for that tier
so:

( (attack-power / cycles-to-recharge) * cap) / knowledge-cost

Currently the beam cannon's DPC-Cap-K is slightly better at each tier than the laser turrets, to make up for the fact that 170 ships will have a much more flexible and probably efficient application of their total damage.

Metal, Crystal, and Energy costs are also balanced to be in the same ballpark, each shifted a bit to fit with the concept behind the unit (high energy, or high metal, etc).
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: HitmanN on March 09, 2010, 05:43:56 PM
I need to test these some more, but from a quick glance, they lack the range I originally thought they should have. I'd recommend upping the range by 3-5k, just under the range of dreadnoughts 'n such, so you can still bombard the turrets from afar, but otherwise they'd outrange other turrets. At least mk2 and mk3 should go beyond laser turret mk3 in range, so that the heavy turrets kind of pick off from where the traditional turrets end, range -wise. This way they're not just many turrets in one, but also provide the turret you need for firing long distances, when sniper is overkill in range, and meaningless in damage. :P

So... perhaps trade some of the damage for extra range?
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: XRsyst on March 09, 2010, 05:50:51 PM
Damage is fine but I would up the range too, they are static emplacements after all.

Slightly off topic, I remember reading a sci-fi book called "Death Ground", one static wormhole defense they used was called a "Nuclear pumped X-ray laser" which was basically a nuke that would go off and have all of explosions energy channeled into a single coherent beam that was more than enough to destroy any single starship.  Needless to say this was a one shot item.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 09, 2010, 10:30:01 PM
I'll just up the range, and see what people think of the damage.

-upped heavy beam cannon range from 10500/11500/12500 to 15000/16000/17000
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: HitmanN on March 10, 2010, 08:30:32 AM
Alright, let's see how that does. :)
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: orzelek on March 10, 2010, 07:07:24 PM
From what I can see I would prefer a bit more cap per mark level with dps reduction per turret - maybe up to about 10 turrets per mark level.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: HitmanN on March 10, 2010, 09:30:21 PM
From what I can see I would prefer a bit more cap per mark level with dps reduction per turret - maybe up to about 10 turrets per mark level.

Although I'm yet to decide on the current ones (busy, busy...), the original idea was indeed for the heavy turrets to have a two-digit cap. I think we do need 'very heavy' turrets like these too, but I guess I was thinking more of 'just-a-bit-heavier-than-the-standard' turrets as well.

Anyhow, seems like a decent thought. AI War does kind of lack those middle-ground units, especially for turrets. Things are either really powerful and come in packs of up to 5 or so, or fairly weak and come in hundreds. In-betweeners are rare.

I still think the heavy turret line should increase considerably in firepower and range and decrease a lot in cap with each level. That way each level is more unique, and may fit better for different roles, rather than being more of the same as previous level.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 11, 2010, 12:45:49 AM
For 3.083:

-Heavy Beam Turret MkI/II/III ship caps changed from 4/4/4 to 12/8/4, with corresponding balance changes (not exactly 1/3rding and 1/2ing, actually moderate buffs to all marks).

If desired I can increase those caps still further, just trying to do this incrementally.

They're probably somewhat overpowered right now, on average, but that's ok for introducing them so people actually use them and give feedback ;)  Balance suggestions are quite welcome.

By the way, I'm considering a mk IV version with a ship cap of 1 but simply stupid amounts of attack power (still balanced numerically, of course, but that will be pretty high).  Do you think that would be fun/useful/worth-making-a-mkIV-graphic-for? :)
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: HellishFiend on March 11, 2010, 01:35:28 AM
Sounds like a great idea! Could be the X-Factor someone needs to defend an impossible position or to assist with a beachhead on an impossible attack.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: XRsyst on March 11, 2010, 02:02:20 AM
Like building a BuzzSaw or Vulcan Cannon in Total Annihilation, takes forever but once you've got one...
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: Ozymandiaz on March 11, 2010, 04:32:04 AM
Or like the Mavor from SupCom1. Took for ever to build (on my slow ass comp anyways), but oh boy was it awesome when I had one :D.

Might as well add a Mk IV (if OP wants to make a new model) as an option. I like having options :).
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: RCIX on March 11, 2010, 04:36:43 AM
Or like the Mavor from SupCom1. Took for ever to build (on my slow ass comp anyways), but oh boy was it awesome when I had one :D.

Might as well add a Mk IV (if OP wants to make a new model) as an option. I like having options :).

Mavor's more of a long range arty, Fatboy is probably better.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: HitmanN on March 11, 2010, 07:37:39 AM
Cool idea about the mk4 version. I think the cap should be maybe 2 or 3 though, but with very high K cost. I mean, if you unlock one for a ton of knowledge and can only defend one planet with it, most likely not needing it after couple of captures anymore, it doesn't seem worth it, no matter what the firepower. Well, except if it's kinda like ion cannon, but insta-kills anything. Sure you can scrap it, but seems annoying to have to do that constantly while you advance in the game.

Btw, how about these having bonuses against starships? It would finally add a defense that's good for downing starships, both on defense and on offense (if you can establish a beachhead and build one quickly enough). Just a thought.

Might as well add a Mk IV (if OP wants to make a new model) as an option. I like having options :).

Can do. I'll get to it in a bit. In the meantime, it'd be nice to decide whether it's a superweapon type of thing or more along the lines of the current. A superweapon version might need some extra spicing on the GFX.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 11, 2010, 09:07:15 AM
I'm thinking of it as an end-of-tech-tree demi-superweapon (I have an idea for a genuinely super-weapon version but that would be gotten via other means more tied in with some endgame ideas).  Not *quite* as insane as the buzzsaw/vulcan but provides a good bang-for-buck ratio and with the amount of K+m+c+e spent on this thing that's a lot of bang.

The sort of thing that might be the "MVP" in a CPA-stopping defensive array (well, short of a golem), but it wouldn't stop said CPA by itself.

What I could do is implement it using the MkIII graphics and then you could see what it did before art thinkering.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: HitmanN on March 11, 2010, 10:56:00 AM
Not *quite* as insane as the buzzsaw/vulcan but provides a good bang-for-buck ratio and with the amount of K+m+c+e spent on this thing that's a lot of bang.

Vulcan and Buzzsaw were actually pretty poor units. The range was quite subpar to what you paid for, and you average bomber run downed them too easily. Just send a bunch of peepers/finks (or hawks/vamps if you're up against lots of other defenses) in and drop couple of dozen bombers on the vulcans/buzzsaws you find. :P

But if we're talking about fire rate, then yes, those were fairly insane. But they did eat energy like crazy too. I usually preferred a bunch of Big Berthas instead. More range, fairly accurate, much quicker to build.

Ahem... but this ain't a forum for TA talk. Sorry about that. Fond memories...  ;D

What I could do is implement it using the MkIII graphics and then you could see what it did before art thinkering.

Or you can try these. ;) I did make it kinda quick, so I hope it doesn't look half-assed.

Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 11, 2010, 11:10:22 AM
TA is worth talking about ;)  Yea, the buzzsaw/vulcan wasn't all that great cost/benefit wise, but against the Korgath and other super-heavy mechs that came in later mods it was one of the truly fearsome things.  Seeing some gigantic robot of death that took whole armies of normal units to take down start taking 3-rounds/second of artillery projectiles that could tear down entire buildings by themselves... good times :)

It's stuff like this that makes me wish there were some good way to work the whole "firing lasers costs energy" concept into AI War, but that's a battle for another day. 

Thanks for the graphics, will work those in :)
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: XRsyst on March 11, 2010, 12:25:56 PM
This will be a nice addition for something that can stop a starship.  Presently it seems that all of the good defensive units are non-reclaimable which causes them not to be unlocked/built as often (Fortresses and Mass Drivers come to mind).  Having some kind of heavy hitter that can be built and reclaimed when necessary would be great.

Also, I *still* play the Krogoth Encounter mission now and again just to prove I can.  When I'm feeling like a sadist I'll do it without building walls...  Also, TA, great game music or greatest game music?
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: orzelek on March 11, 2010, 12:41:07 PM
Can you also consider this heavy turrets to be AI forbidden... after I think 1 hour it has already about 5 mark III's on planet. I think that this cap limiting is not exactly respected by AI and it adds them at will (aka when dice drop ok).
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 11, 2010, 12:46:30 PM
They don't have caps per se but when picking a turret from the "turret bag" for their planet level (I,II,III,IV,Core,Home, basically) I can have more instances of lesser turrets in the "bag" so the heavies are less likely to be pulled.

The AI *will* be using these against you ;)

But in more sane numbers.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: vonkolberg on March 11, 2010, 03:14:19 PM
I think it's kind of cool that the AI uses them--it adds some extra danger to flying transports around the map (which had become a little too easy since their speed and health was buffed).  They also pose an extra threat to raid starships (which could also make things a tad too easy at times).
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: corfe83 on March 11, 2010, 03:20:32 PM
I just played a game last night with these, and heavy turrets on AI planets are absolutely NASTY! They were cutting through my ships like butter.

I love the challenge these bring, though :)
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 11, 2010, 03:34:28 PM
I'm glad you enjoy the challenge, I've toned down the numbers (though each tuning only affects new turret selections, it won't retroactively try to change an existing turret population when loading a game) for 3.083, though in balance with the higher-cap lower-power mk I and II you may actually see more of those.  For what it's worth, the IV will not be used by the AI, at least not as a normal turret selection.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: orzelek on March 11, 2010, 07:13:58 PM
Pretty please remove them from AI. Looking at anything else it can build caps are really not a problem - and when heavy turrets reach some kind of critical mass they maybe almost untouchable.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 11, 2010, 08:58:01 PM
Even in a test with like 15 Mk IIIs in an AI turret ball they were still touchable.  Terribly nasty, but you could still get them.  And I'm trying to tune the numbers so you shouldn't see more than 1 or 2 in a single ball even on a homeworld.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 13, 2010, 01:15:20 AM
Ok, the MkIV is in for 3.083.  Thanks for the art! :)  It's probably somewhat OP, but not by much I'd say considering it's 6000 knowledge for 1 unit.  Not to mention a fortune of metal and crystal, and 20000 energy to run.  Actually, it may need an attack power buff, but I want to see what people think first.

There was a bug inflating the range by 3000 for all marks for some unknown reason, so I reduced them all by 3000.  I may reduce the IV by a fair bit more, dunno.  Right now it kinda makes Ion Cannons look like tinker toys, and shortening the range could help leave the IC with its own role.

I also made it so the AI won't build any new IIIs, just Is and IIs.  I had an evil plan to make all AI Home Command Stations start with a IV nearby, but I think that would just be cruel (may look into it for an AI Type + High Difficulty + Random Chance thing).  Of course, a full cap of all 4 normal bomber marks would probably get through the fire without taking too many losses.  Low health ships just die like flies.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: HellishFiend on March 13, 2010, 02:39:19 AM
Low health ships already die like flies. I think most of the pre-Zenith special ships need an HP buff in general, actually. The rest of the game has gotten tougher, and most of those units have remained at the same HP.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: Rod Serling on March 16, 2010, 07:20:31 PM
The biggest problem I see with the IV turret so far is the extremely limiting Knowledge cost factor.

I used them in defense, and they tear through starships and smaller ships with fairly-accurate regard to their costs, except I don't think I can justify spending 6000 K on one turret in a non-cheat game.

Really, the whole Heavy-Turret line is very expensive Knowledge-wise. 15,000 Knowledge in total, that's 8 planets worth of knowledge dedicated to an almost purely defensive structure. In an 80-planet game, that's a little less than 10% of my total knowledge.

For 15,000 Knowledge, I could unlock MK II and MK III ships in two different lines, along with MK II Scouts (560 ships total on non-bonus ships)
For 15,000 Knowledge, I could unlock MK I and MK II Raid and Dreadnought Starships, along with the MK III Raid Starship (19 Mobile, high-powered Starships)
For 14,500 Knowledge, I could unlock MK I - MK III Missile Turrets, MK II + MK III MLRS Turrets, and MK I + MK II Laser Turrets (1190 Stationary, low-powered static defenses)

For 15,000 Knowledge, I could unlock MK I - MK IV Heavy turrets (25 Stationary, high-powered static defenses)

The first three allow a great amount of flexibility in deployment, while maintaining a very large amount of raw power.
The last allows an extremely large amount of raw power, but the flexibility is lost because we only get 25 of them.
After a certain point, firepower no longer has the same amount of importance as before. Knowledge is the only finite resource in the game, and after a certain point, REQUIRES the destruction of enemy sectors to effectively increase. Knowledge is a very important resource, and I really don't think the heavy turrets are THAT justified.

But in any game with "give me k", they'll be among the first turrets I deploy. They rock when I "accidentally" nuke a planet with 5+ Enemy Starships. :D
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 16, 2010, 07:52:45 PM
To some degree the IV is more of a role-play/reward unit; I wanted really powerful super-turrets, but most folks here want larger numbers of between-super-and-normal turrets.  So I "spread out" the I and II a bit, left the III as is, and added the IV for me :D  More seriously, I hope others like it too. 

I think I'll double or even triple the I, II, and III caps for 3.085, drop the power and per-unit costs in proportion, and perhaps drop the K a bit.  I'm curious to know people's desires for cap numbers (well, and the rest of the stats, too, but cap seems to be the driving thing).

As for the IV, the knowledge cost could be dropped a fair bit, or it could be given yet-stupider amounts of power, but I've been hesitant as I don't want to make a "developer's pet unit" that just annihilates everything for too little cost.  Much stronger and you get into "one-shotting-a-spire" territory.

More conceptually, I've been balancing the Beam Cannons against other turrets based on maintaining a roughly equal "((Damage / ReloadTime) * ShipCap) / KnowledgeCost" for each tier with laser and missile turrets (mrls and basics are balanced differently for a few reasons). In 3.083/3.084 they're actually a chunk higher (still within 30% or so).  Perhaps there should be an additional factor on ship cap, like divide by log10(ShipCap)?  So something with 100 ship cap can have half the DPC-at-Cap-per-K of something with 10 ship cap, which in turn can half that of something with 1 ship cap... make sense?  Or too drastic?
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: XRsyst on March 17, 2010, 12:25:35 PM
For defending key systems there are already plenty of turrets to choose from, I don't think we have to shoehorn these turrets perfectly into the mold that all of the other turrets are in. What I'm hoping a MKIV Heavy can do, that I already have some difficulty with, is the Super Terminal.  I usually have to stop by the time there are ~400 core zenith ships per wave, I'm hoping I can get a little further with something like this.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 17, 2010, 12:27:32 PM
Hmm, I don't know for sure, but I think the MkIV would be very likely to damage the super terminal by accident (since the beams just hit whatever hostiles are on the line), assuming you're attacking the ships as they emerge.  But I don't recall the mechanics of that scenario.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: triggerman602 on March 17, 2010, 02:39:46 PM
can the lasers be made to shoot at maximum range all the time so the laser keeps in going past the target. from what iv seen mark I-III do this a little bit but the mark IV didn't. its a little disappointing to the thing shoot and hit the closest enemy in the clump but have all the enemies behind not get hit.

also can you put this laser logic on beam frigates too?
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 17, 2010, 02:45:28 PM
The reason the beams stop is that they've run out of strength.  If they have enough total damage to destroy everything within their field of action, they will extend to full range.  If they can't destroy the stuff up front, they won't make it to the stuff behind.

This is a very different calculation than the beam frigate and beam starship, which simply hit everything on the line with the same strength.
Title: Re: Heavy Turret GFX suggestion
Post by: vonduus on March 26, 2010, 06:33:09 AM
A small complaint: The ai is using way too many heavy turrets. I just had a game where all adjacent planets to my home planet had from three to seven (7) heavy turrets. One of the planets had a single cluster of five mkII heavy turrets, along with the normal complement of other turrets. It was a great challenge to take this heavy turret ball down, but I am not sure if I think it was particularly funny. It took me several hours, as I had to attack, then leave and replenish, then attack again etc.

On another planet it seemed that the ai rebuilt the heavies in one concentrated ball, as I was eliminating them. I am not too sure about this, but I believe the planet started out with five heavies in five different turret balls, one in each, but when I had taken out these singular turrets one by one, I finally had to wipe out all five heavies in the same ball. I am pretty sure those five was not concentrated there when I went in first time, I would have noticed that. The battle cost my fleet. Not funny.

Please make a cap for the ai's use of turrets. Two heavies is a nice challenge, five heavies is ridicoulous.