Author Topic: To Fight Until The Stars Go Out  (Read 4022 times)

Offline SenorPez

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To Fight Until The Stars Go Out
« on: June 27, 2012, 12:39:22 pm »
Having conquered a few demons in 6/6, I move (back, having lost numerous times before surrendering to 6/6) to a 7/7 game. I post this not just to chronicle humanity's last attempt at survival, but, should we fall, to educate and be educated in tactics and strategy.

Vital Stats:
Version: 5.035 with all expansions.
Map: 80 planets, seed 1333783594, Simple map
Ships: Simple, Normal caps
AI Types: Random Easier 7 / Random Easier 7
AI Auto Progress: 1/30
Minor Factions: Human Marauders (2), Human Resistance Fighters (2), Human Colony Rebellions (2)



In short order, the opening moments of the war seemed needlessly hectic aboard the command station orbiting Ificen. The scouts were sent forth through the three wormholes, revealing, as expected, AI held territory. Additional space docks were constructed and ordered to spew forth Fighters, Bombers, and Missile Frigates in batches of 30. The first part of the plan was a simple landgrab: Expand our territory as rapidly as possible, before the AI knew what hit it. Focus on lightly-defended planets so that resources can be accumulated with as little loss as possible.

Existing research data is spent on several items: Mark II Scouts, Mark II Fighters, Mark II Bombers, and the Mark II Economic Orbital Command Station.

Intel reports show an Alarm post on Uhban. Not a problem, as long as we hit that first. That will be the first target.

Zasic has a Black Hole Machine. A slight headache begins forming in the back of my mind. There's a good chance that makes the AI the tactical display designated as "green" a One-Way Doormaster. Despite that, if we can capture the Black Hole Machine on Zasic, it'll make a nice defensive bastion to the west of our homework. That will be the second target.

Wepmu is of more concern, not due to infrastructure (which is decidedly light), but due to the presence of two Mark II starships: A Leech Starship and a Plasma Siege Starship. That will be the third target, and I immediately authorize the construction of bomber starships to counter those threats. This will crash our economic flows, but for the moment, that's acceptable.

Our computers also possess data for Parasite craft, which will be queued as soon as a solid core force is created. The enemy appears to have data for Armor Ships, Tachyon MicroFighters (which will make life difficult for our scouts), and the venerable Space Tank.

As the initial strikeforce of fighters, bombers, and frigates is constructed, 27 scouts are sacrificed to the AI defenses to gain us intelligence. Four more worlds--Panquila, Niway, Ticrex, and Taoronno--under the green AI's control are revealed, each with Black Hole Machine. Definitely a One-Way Doormaster.

Despite being a Mark III planet, Panquila becomes a priority target, having both an A-Prime Network Core Shield Generator and one of the AI's Advanced Research Facilities. Lightly defended and containing an E-Secondary Network Core Shield Generator, Ticrex is also prioritized. As that would give our landgrab four planets bordering the Mark IV work of Niway, that world is targeted for destruction of the Warp Gate as soon as our forces can withstand the inevitable (strong!) counterstroke.

A fifth planet--Dinauha--is revealed, and the slight headache grows larger. It's controlled by the yellow AI, and contains a Gravity Drill. Another batch of scouts is sent out just as the 90-ship task force to assault Uhban is ready. I'm doing my best to project an air of confidence and control to the other members on the command deck; after all, they brought me out of cryo to save the human race, and after our first strike, our fate will be decided.

The task force is jumping into Uhban just as the spilt group of scouts makes it past Dinauha, confirming my fears. Micpiraos is controlled by the yellow AI, and it too contains a Gravity Drill. That would make the yellow AI running a Grav Driller routine. My headache is full-on now. Perhaps it's not too late to pull the strikeforce back from Uhban, crawl back into a cryo-pod, and hope for the best for the human race?

The Black Hole Machines on half of the planets will make travel impossible to all but scouts. Destroying them will gather the attention of the AI. Capturing them will provide significant defensive strength, but further draw the gaze of the AIs.

The Gravity Drills on the other half of the planets will make travel incredibly slow to all but scouts. Destroying them will gather the attention of the AI. Capturing them will provide significant resources (but not alleviate the travel problem) and allow us to maintain a "stonking huge economy," but further draw the gaze of the AIs.

Either way, this fight looks like it's going to be a lot longer than we had planned for it to be.

We're 2 minutes into humanity's last stand, and the command of its forces and proclaimed military savior is standing on the command deck with a raging headache.



Question: What's the most effective way to scout? When I look at, for example, Wanderer's AARs, he's got huge swathes of territory scouted. Group-moving my scouts seems to not get nearly as far as others seem to be able to scout, so I eventually resort to suicidal warbands of Frigates killing every Tachyon Guardian along paths. Which results in a nice counterstrike of threat that I then have to deal with, and seems risky given the existence of Raid Engines and such...

Offline Coppermantis

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Re: To Fight Until The Stars Go Out
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2012, 05:03:44 pm »
Regarding scouting: Transports. Again, they can only get you so far but it enhances your ability to scout by about three hops depending on what the enemy has. Move the transport full of scouts into the system, move it out of tachyon range and unload, then reload all but one scout and repeat. That's how I do deep scouting anyways.
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline laughingman

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Re: To Fight Until The Stars Go Out
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2012, 05:04:10 pm »
That's a brutal combination you're facing right there, and I don't envy you your fight. It's not impossible, but it will take some time. Scouting in a game where the AI has the tachyon micro fighters or sentinel frigates can be difficult.

You should be able to get mark I scouts three planets out. Mark II scouts will usually be able to reach four planets out. You can extend your scouting range by 1-2 planets if you destroy the tachyon guardians on the hostile planets bordering the ones you control. You can also micromanage them to get an additional planet out in some  circumstances.  Spirecraft Scouts are great at scouting large swathes of the galaxy, but it looks like you don't have them in this game.

You can capture the planets with gravity drills, and then destroy them with no AIP penalty.

Edit: How could I forget transports!?

Offline Wanderer

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Re: To Fight Until The Stars Go Out
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2012, 05:30:00 pm »
Transports are not immune to either BHGs nor Gravity.  They're going to get stalled out in either AI type.

MK Is 3 worlds out is rare for me unless I've got all 10 available and they're lucky.  MK IIs 4 worlds out, same issue.  Wonder if I'm just doing it wrong but they can rarely reach that far for me without some serious Tachyon Guardpost removals.

That is a hell of a tough setup though.  Be prepared for massive AIP gains if you want to get things done and be on the lookout for gravity ignoring ships in the ARSs, you're going to want at LEAST one so you can raid with impunity.  Use the gravs AGAINST the AI. :)
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline SenorPez

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Re: To Fight Until The Stars Go Out
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2012, 11:29:52 am »
Hour One

For the first salvo in the war to save humanity, the assault on Uhban was almost laughable. The AI defenses were nearly non-existent, and the alarm post triggering was mitigated by our military's extermination of the defending ships. Some hardware was lost, but nothing that couldn't be easily recovered. A Colony Ship was sent in to establish a Mark II Economic Command Station and give our resource flows the boost they'd need to support the Bomber and Plasma Siege Starships I'd decided to build to counter the AI's use of Leech and Plasma Siege Starships.

Before Uhban was secured, the second assault was begun. The Black Hole Machine on Zasic not only prevents travel through the system by anything larger than a scout craft, but makes retreat from an assault impossible. This not only means forces can be trapped and destroyed, but that, should "something else" happen elsewhere, the forces committed to the attack can't respond. With several forcefields in the system, including one guarding a Command Station Shield Guard Post, surplus bombers from ongoing production were dumped with impunity into Zasic. The fight took longer than Uhban, but the weight of our force prevailed.

As construction began on a second Mark II Economic Command Station, intent on improving the economy further as well as capturing Zasic's Black Hole Machine, the AIs' first counterstroke appeared: An incoming attack wave, guided by the AI Warp Gates, slingshotted straight to my front door, of several hundred Fighters. Rudimentary turret defenses were prepared, and production began adding in Parasites and Mark II Fighters and Bombers. The wave was dispatched with little trouble, and the collected weight of military might, including a pair of Bomber Starships, crashed into Wepmu. While the Bombers and Bomber Starships dispatched the heavy Starships with little problem, the remainder of the forces systematically cleansed the system of hostiles with efficiency.

Not feeling that we had the military strength to yet take Panquila, the fresh-from battle forces continue on to Ticrex. Scouts had revealed them, but for the first time, our forces engaged the massive AI Guardians in battle, and find that identifying and exploiting their weakness proves vital. With Ticrex under our control, we decide it's finally time to take the Mark III planet of Panquila.

Newly-accumulated research goes into the creation of Mobile Repair Stations, to give the fleet a bit more staying power. While the first MRS builds, the fleet is sent to Panquila; its Black Hole Machine makes this a risky maneuver, but the technological advantage must be countered by both tactics and numbers. The fast and durable Bomber Starships are sent on a certainly-suicidal but vital mission to target the system's Ion Cannon, followed by the Missile Guard Posts, followed by the Command Station Shield Guard Posts. The fleet ships and Plasma Siege Starships remain near the entrance wormhole, breaking formation to target Guardians and dangerous hostiles.

"Sir!" comes the voice of one of my science officers. I've been so involved in battles across four systems that I've barely noticed the goings on of the command deck. I shoot her a look to continue without delay.

"We believe," she continues, without wasting time on formalities, "one of our Science Labs can intercept the command and control signals between the AI Command Station and the Advanced Research Ship in Panquila. If nothing else, we can see what data is being held there. Best case scenario, we can use a modified Science Lab to selectively extract data."

I give her a nod, and tell her to order one of our functioning Science Labs into the system. In my pre-cryo life, I didn't have much use for eggheads, but I've found them to be quite useful in this new age. I know there's a slim chance of finding a combat ship design that, like our Scouts, is immune to the effects of those cursed Gravity Drills. But a slim chance is better than none, and I relish the possibility of such an edge.

The military forces are taking losses in Panquila, but holding their own, especially with the MRS now on station above the wormhole. As the Science Lab arrives in system, a hoot of joy goes up from the segment of the command deck where the eggheads work. I stare at them intently, and notice three ship schematic readouts. "Laser Gatling," says the first, a cheap but numerous design that's little more than a laser gun with an engine. "Space Tank," says the second, an ancient design that's slow but with a heavy hitting attack and heavy armor. The third is what created the excitement. "Raptor." An impossibly-fast design with a light attack. And immunity to Gravity Effects.

"We can hack the Advanced Research Ship," the science officer says, voice trembling with excitement. I like that the eggheads of this era understand that research that doesn't help our effort is wasted. I wonder if that's a product of our desperate situation. I express slight concern at this idea, however. We're trying to minimize the ire of the AI; hacking it seems to run counter to our stated goals. Her response is that it's not without risk, but the first hack should be fairly benign.

As the hack began, I realize we've badly underestimated the AIs response. Zombie ships--including the strangely-awkward but frieghteningly dangerous Zombie Zombie Guardian--begin flooding from numerous parts of the Panquila system, and the fleet is nearly overwhelmed. Reinforcements, constructed on the homework to replace losses, are scrambled, stabilizing the situation. "10 minutes," the lead egghead tells me, and I cringe.

What followed was an incredibly intense 10 minutes. The fleet struggled against the waves upon waves of zombie ships, knowing the whole while that should they be overwhelmed, that mass of zombies would be heading straight to the homeworld. Huge bursts of tachyon particles disabled the cloaking on the makeshift Science Lab being used to hack the Advanced Research Ship, forcing the fleet to scramble to remain close to it for protection. Zombie Guardians emerged to wreck havoc.

But the worst was the Mark II Raid Starship. Emerging from the chaos, it made a beeline to the homeworld, killing other command stations along its path. Only through the luck that a significant fleet was on station, as the continued replenishment took place, saved our Home Command Station. Fires and sparks and smoke filled the command deck, and my science officer would never see the fruits of our dangerous labor, killed by an exploding power conduit. Why no one in the future has heard of a circuit breaker, I'll never know.

As we picked up the pieces and saw the fleet holding its own, if only barely, another wave of enemy bombers was detected, inbound to our command station on Uhban. Static defenses were ordered to be created; I didn't have the ships to reinforce the fleet in Panquila and defend Uhban at the same time. Those defenses would crash our economy completely, but there was no other choice.

The end came suddenly. The Bomber wave had been blunted by a massive wall of turrets and a skeleton fleet of Fighters. The battle against hacking-spawned zombies had settled into an ebb and flow between the two groups. An unfamiliar egghead shouted something that I couldn't understand, aside from the fact that whatever hacking efforts they'd attempted had been successful. I ordered the fleet to immediately destroy Panquila's Command Station, and sent a Colony Ship to replace it with one of our own--and much needed--Economic Command Stations. As the Advanced Research Ship came under our control, I have a smile and a nod to where the corpse of the science officer lay, covered in a black medical blanket. We'd gotten her Raptors.



Galaxy View, complete with economy in shambles thanks to the Raid Starship and ill-timed wave!




I'd thought of doing an ARS hack, but the responses to the thread helped remind me. Since it's still a fairly new mechanic (to me, anyway), it's still not in my "standard operating procedure" to bring a cheapo Science Lab to take a look at an ARS before blowing the system to kingdom come.

I actually ended up having to savescum the hacking attempt the first time, since I didn't realize--or forgot--that it has to be "enemy" controlled, not "neutral." Oops.

I badly underestimated the intensity of the zombie waves for the first hack. I was under the mistaken impression that they'd be soft as a pillow, and that certainly was not the case. That being said, I wouldn't change a thing about them: The 10 minutes of game time were WONDERFUL, with an intensity that makes me want to keep coming back. And it drives home a subtle warning: It's only going to get worse if you try this again, so be prepared!

Offline laughingman

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Re: To Fight Until The Stars Go Out
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2012, 02:46:50 pm »
Transports are not immune to either BHGs nor Gravity.  They're going to get stalled out in either AI type.

MK Is 3 worlds out is rare for me unless I've got all 10 available and they're lucky.  MK IIs 4 worlds out, same issue.  Wonder if I'm just doing it wrong but they can rarely reach that far for me without some serious Tachyon Guardpost removals.


That's strange, because it's about the only thing I can count on being the same from game to game. It does take all the scouts of each mark to reach that far out, but what else are you going to use them for? :)

SenorPez, I'm glad that hacking was able to give you a ship that counters the AI's main strength. That will certainly make the rest of your job easier! I can't remember if Raptors have auto-kiting, but if they do that's going to make clearing those gravity drill worlds a piece of cake.

I've really enjoyed the hacking mechanic since it was introduced. It makes for some tense, exciting battles, as you've already found out. You might be able to get away with it a second time, but it's going to be messy. I've never tried it a third time, but I imagine the response would be, um, problematic.


But the worst was the Mark II Raid Starship. Emerging from the chaos, it made a beeline to the homeworld, killing other command stations along its path. Only through the luck that a significant fleet was on station, as the continued replenishment took place, saved our Home Command Station. Fires and sparks and smoke filled the command deck, and my science officer would never see the fruits of our dangerous labor, killed by an exploding power conduit. Why no one in the future has heard of a circuit breaker, I'll never know.


LMAO at "no one in the future has heard of a circuit breaker."

I find that 5-10 sniper turrets can handle most Raid Starships.

Good luck with the rest of the fight!

Offline Diazo

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Re: To Fight Until The Stars Go Out
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2012, 12:29:07 pm »
One thing to keep in mind is that both of the AI's strengths can be captured and turned against him.

You will have to capture enough systems to have defensive depth to make this work, but both Gravity Drills and Black Hole Machines can be captured and turned to your side.

I absolutely love capturing a Black Hole Machine and funneling the waves to that system as they can't run away.

A gravity drill also works for this because it slows the AI ships down. Gravity Drill + Sniper Turrets is a scary combination.

However, do have backups as there are units immune to these effects, such as the Raid Starship being immune to the Black Hole Machine.

Yes, these AI types are both annoying to fight and make for a slower paced game but they offer some of the best capturables for you to turn to your side and exploit.

D.

Offline SenorPez

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Re: To Fight Until The Stars Go Out
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2012, 01:30:51 pm »
Note: 4th of July vacation takes precedence over saving the human race. But Hour Two was interesting as the feel and tempo of the game completely changed, from frantic landgrab into consolidation and defense.

Hour Two

The chaos of Hour One seemed to end, as a spigot is turned off. The frantic battle in Panquila gave way to economic collapse, and a difficult decision. Our breakout from the homeworld of Ificen had been successful, but our territories were now completely surrounded by enemy planets with both Mark III ships and Black Hole Machines or Gravity Drills. As a result, the eggheads' knowledge gathering would be limited, yet at the same time, so was our economic income. In a decision I hoped I'd not regret later, I commissioned research on the Mark III Economic Command Station, to boost our income and get our resource flows out of debt.

Early in the hour, a surprise came in the form of a crackling transmission to the command deck, coming in on channels my advisers say hadn't been used for several years. While battling back an attack by a horde of enemy Tachyon MicroFighters, another contact would register along the outskirts of Ticrex. It turned out to be a squadron of humans, cut off from our race's meager subsistence on Ificren after the wrath of the AI had nearly exterminated us, living in deep space with highly-advanced attack craft.

I would quickly learn that these humans were on our side, having seen fit to emerge from hiding and aid us in the struggle. The Achilles Heel of their powerful ships was the unfortunate fact that they were irreplaceable. Though some of my advisers seemed wary, I accepted their help. While their craft survived, they could patrol the systems we'd taken, freeing fleet and defense elements from having to combat enemy stragglers.

The rest of hour two was... management and preparation. It was a welcome relief when no great threats materialized. Enemy attack waves were managed, raiders were sent on their maiden voyages to destroy the Warp Gate in Dinauha and harrass its defenders, and a significant strike force moved into Niway on a trip to destroy its Warp Gate.

The other push was to destroy Black Hole Machines and enemy forces--but not Command Stations--in Taoronno and Bingsic, carving a path for what had been designated as our next priority target: Puyaqous. Aside from a Data Center, it held a Captive Human Settlement, which, while risky for us to capture, could alleviate our economic problems. It also would serve as a jumping off point for our assault on Therum, which held both another Core Shield Generator and an advanced Fabricator, capable of turning out advanced Bomber Starships.

With the path cleared, a clutch of Transports was dispatched, sending the main attack fleet into Puyagos to push northward. The second push had begun, and the AIs would certainly notice in time.


Offline SenorPez

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Re: To Fight Until The Stars Go Out
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2012, 02:43:31 pm »
Long story short, since during vacation without Internet I played this campaign a LOT... I had a lot of catching up to do, but now it doesn't really seem worth it.

One of the AI Homeworlds had a Core CPA.

I didn't quite realize it triggers the CPA immediately, without a countdown. Lost in the 15th hour.

As a result, my plan of popping the CPA and whatever else I could before the strikeforce died, and having 13 minutes and a HUGE economy to repel the inbound CPA didn't quite work.

Oops.

I'm now trying to decide if I want to savescum this and try again, or just go to a new campaign... kind of a disappointing end.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: To Fight Until The Stars Go Out
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2012, 03:28:31 pm »
I thought the most recent patch had Core CPAs trigger a CPA alert, giving you the expected 13ish minutes.  Are you on the latest patch?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: To Fight Until The Stars Go Out
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2012, 06:34:15 pm »
If it's insta-triggering in the latest patch please attach a save from before triggering it and I can take a look :)
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Offline SenorPez

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Re: To Fight Until The Stars Go Out
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2012, 09:07:29 pm »
If it's insta-triggering in the latest patch please attach a save from before triggering it and I can take a look :)

It's not. I'm still on a previous version (5.035, I think), whatever was current when I started the game. I tend not to, to mangle a phrase, change horses in midstream.

I can definitely see why the change was made, and I think I'm just going to chalk up the sudden appearance of 2k+ threat to by bad management, poor intel (stupid eggheads, be more better!), and a few rough tactical decisions. Humanity dies, but I'll certainly try again once I take a few deep breaths. All in all, though I'm still winless against 7/7, I'm pretty pleased with how far I made it without savescumming once. I'm clearly getting better, but I still need practice.

Question about the Core CPA, though: Does it spawn ships, or simply release existing ships? That being, if I triggered it immediately after another CPA (or other event that causes a bunch of inactive ships to theoretically go active), would it be a fairly small impact, since few ships are available?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: To Fight Until The Stars Go Out
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2012, 09:09:50 pm »
Question about the Core CPA, though: Does it spawn ships, or simply release existing ships? That being, if I triggered it immediately after another CPA (or other event that causes a bunch of inactive ships to theoretically go active), would it be a fairly small impact, since few ships are available?
It just releases them, like normal CPAs.  So you can actually use it to empty the galaxy of guarding AI ships (I think ones under forcefields are more reluctant, though).

Lately I've been wondering about CPA size.  They seem kinda small.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: To Fight Until The Stars Go Out
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2012, 09:30:07 pm »
Lately I've been wondering about CPA size.  They seem kinda small.
This.  The first one generally seems pretty reasonable, and when I was new and wasn't do any clearing at all they all seemed tough.  But now they really fall off.  I'm almost thinking they need to spawn ships to make up for any missing units.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: To Fight Until The Stars Go Out
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2012, 09:37:22 pm »
I'm almost thinking they need to spawn ships to make up for any missing units.
Yea, I've been considering that too, but it seems more than a bit wrong.  I mean, that's what waves are, right?

I could have it pile the points into a spawning bunch of guardians or something to make it at least a bit varied without it feeling like the AI is just getting a ton of normal fleet ships for free beyond the normal reinforcement/wave model.

Or have it slap engines on a FortIII/Superfort and float that over to you, if it absolutely has to be "only releasing existing units" ;)
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