Author Topic: The AI 9 through 10 run  (Read 71803 times)

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #210 on: May 30, 2012, 06:22:17 am »
With econ approaching 400k/900k, I decide it's time to move to Macross.  Also, a Science II has been moved to Huge.  ARS choices: Autobomb as default, Space Tank and Gravity Drain as alternates.

Errr.  Hrm.  Not that Grav Drains aren't useful against cutlasses but the Space Tank seems like the best choice here.

That said, Defense is going to get NASTY.  Autobombs could be VERY useful.  I'm going to leave the Huge ARS for much later when I decide what I need from it.

2:07: 912 ship wave announced for Homeworld.  I just BARELY popped the Macross station for that too.  AIP 84.

Mil I station going up on Macross.  Fleet is running like hell to protect homeworld in the meanwhile.  They do get there in time and a bit of micro is needed to get the maws under FF.  The wave is massive and half my fleet dies trying to block it.  In the meanwhile I have to double up generators on Fraggle to keep up with power demands trying to get the whipping boy operational.

Basic setup on Macross: 10 Flaks/Lightnings inside the double FF protecting the Mil I station.  This is to deter/smack teleporters.  Everything else will be setup against the entry wormhole for now.  Once I can get a BHG up I'll move the turrets back and use a minefield since they won't be able to leave.

2:10: 708 ships to Homeworld.

Ask and you shall receive.  The Traders were kind enough to visit Macross while I was busy trying to get the whipping boy going.  Fourpack in place.

With the whipping boy partially built and just deflecting a back to back, I head for Twycross to pop the Warp Gate.

AIP is now 89.  Macross is now the front door.  Production facilities are also moved forward to Macross, shutting down construction on homeworld.  I strip homeworld of all but two additional FFs for the homeworld station, and 20 each of LRM, MLRM, Basic, Laser, and Sniper, and a few gravs, for self defense.

I've ruined my econ getting the whipping boy operational but that's acceptable.  Now I need to show a bit of patience, which I don't have so we'll be heading to craps soon, once things get to a reasonable position in the whipping boy and my fleet's refilled.

2:17: 500 ships to Macross.  Here we go.  The whipping boy won't be fully built by the time they land but the majority of it is up.  The fleet is hanging around, available, as backup just in case.  However, the FFs weren't up and a ton of the wave escaped as threat once they took out the only one active.  The Dysons chased into craps though to get 'em, and did some cleanup for me.

Well, as long as they were going to distract, my raids went in and got the DC and Ion Cannons.  While they were there it didn't seem to do any harm to knock out a few guardposts too... like, all of them.  My science vessels were happily draining the research away from Dyson about this time, and I was finally feeling a little safer.  AIP 70 with a good strong whipping boy.  2:23.  It's time to go play.

You've seen the rate of waves at this point.  Unless something changes significantly or one comes in of significant difference I'm going to avoid mentioning them at this point.  They're fast, 2/10 minutes roughly, and hit like hammers.

I was running low on scouts.  Very low.  It was time to open Scout IIs.  500 K down, 20 scout IIs up.

Another ARS at Kerensky.  Well, I guess a new map is reasonable.



The yellow dots are currently known ARSs.  Kerensky was going to end up being a major blockage though.  It had a Youngling Weasel V Fab on it, which is of iffy value to me, but its packing an AI Eye, a Fort II, a spire shieldpost III, and 9 other guardposts.  This was going to be a major hassle to get past.

Part of the price of playing the tree map though is that you end up with blockades like this you can't avoid.  I will have to whittle this down somehow.

On a positive note, I was sitting on a ton of research.  It was time to bring Raid SS IIs into play.  They would help significantly here.  I could get the fort if I could get rid of the eye.

Cyborg, the axle planet, was packing Bombard Vs and microParasite Fabs.  They're not really worth the planetary AIP at the moment, but it does have a CSG-C... and that's as far as my Scout IIs can get at the moment without help.

Well, alright, transports to the rescue!  Besides, I wanted to piss off some of  my neighbors and get them to release a few guard dogs.  Build out 5 transports, load 'em with 2/20 scout I/IIs, and ship 'em to confederation... on the off chance they'd survive I tried for Eridani.  They got hosed up by a few grav guardians and didn't even make it through Cyborg, but they did deliver the load of scouts into a safe zone.  Setting up a Scout I as a picket I move the rest off to their targets.

Well, found a second Co-P at Confederation, along with a PAIR of Counterstrike IIs and a Fortress... and a CSG-D.  Eridani, breaking from form, doesn't have an ARS or anything else of note this round.

I did, however, manage to start building myself up a beautiful little threatball over in Craps.  *rolls eyes*  I build off a pair of cloaking SSs for the next run... though I'm still waiting on my Raid IIs.  They finish by 2:30.  I figure my neighboring threatball will invade with the next wave, shouldn't have too long to wait.

Econ's still on the floor... but I'd really like to get eyes on Kirk and Earth.  We all know why.  I still can't quite get them through though.  I'm going to have to pop some Tach posts to get them down there... 2:36 and no wave.  It's like it KNOWS....

I wait.  Econ could use it anyway.  Operating econ is 628m/848c / second.  Gonna take a while to get that Z-Gennie up, nevermind the Whipping Boy Toys.  Kerensky is a 4/3 planet with the ARS but I can't hold it if I want to whipping boy Macross from Craps, as I'd end up splitting the waves.  Cyborg's a 3/2 but I'm not really happy about taking that.  Confed's a 2/2.  Depending on what's in Blackjack I'll have to take one of those 3 as a stepping stone... though I might just deepstrike.

I know I said I'd stop announcing waves but the #'s moved hard:

2:38 1156 ships to Macross announced.  My word.  I pull the fleet back to Twycross, I want to see what the Whipping Boy can handle.  I also save in self defense.

190 bombers, 423 cutlasses, 190 fighters, 81 frigs, 116 T-Leeches, and a carrier with 153 units.  Oh skippee!!!  *facepalm* 71 Gatlings to help out.  Held without an issue.  Excellent.

However, the threatball did NOT move.  The Dysons however are taking a towtruck over to Craps and getting them out of their parking spot.

2:44 1200 ships to Macross

Meanwhile, my Raids are working over Kerensky's spireshieldpost III.  That'll take a while.  My fleet in Twycross, however, gets jammed up by a Black Hole generator!  Lousy evil... 10 AIP to clear the way home for the fleet or I self-destruct 570 ships.  Oh, you lousy lousy SO AND SO!

I could pop it and take the system but that's no better.  ARGH.  dangit.  Lousy son...

Fine.  BOOM, +10 AIP.  I am NOT happy about that.  Trader re-buys should not be AIP causing.

I prep a cloaked repair team with transport to head to Kerensky to support the Raid SSs.  However, for some reason my cloakers insta-pop on entry to Kerensky.  I poke around at the system trying to figure out why.  The Tach post on entry is gone.  It's almost acting like there's a cloak-cannon on the planet, but I can't see it if it is.

Part of the problem is the non-scrolling 'cloaked' screen.  See attached screenshot for what I'm talking about.

Well, whatever it is it's pissing me off.  It might be the minefield however.

At around 2:58 I lost my remaining Raid SSs to the Fortress on Kerensky taking down a post and most of an Ion Cannon.  Meh.  almost done in there though.  One post to go.  Z-gennie is turned off construction at 40% to allow for the rebuild of the Raid SSs.  I'm not dripping in alternatives to deal with the AI Eye in my way right now.  Waves seemed to have settled down a bit though, even though AIP is now at 82.

3:00:00 status:

Whipping boy up.  Kerensky nearly cleared.  Fleet is healthy, other than the Raid SSs.  Z-Gennie is at 40% and other Trader toys are weak and ignored.  Research has 2500 K available to it in case I need a quick boost of something.

Bedtime for Bonzo.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #211 on: May 30, 2012, 06:35:05 pm »
Well, with a quick Raid SS I run against the last post Kerensky lost its AI Eye.  With that completed it was time to move forward with the fleet and see if I could open some holes into the galaxy.  I got a look at Blackjack and it's a 0/1 planet with nothing special on it.  Skippee.  SolarMoon's no better but it's a 4/1.  Still not finding anything of significant interest.

The first run didn't go so great, too many guardians peeled off after the bomber squad trying to take down the fortress and chewed up my bomber fleet.  The rest of the fleet headed home for R&R.

The whipping boy is holding but I'm constantly having to rebuild the entry FFs.  I'm going to need to do something about this... and there's a carrier that escaped into the wild to boot, 579 ships just hanging around out there now...  Not good.  Waiting on the Raids to rebuild who are acing my econonmy to boot.  Only one left luckily.

Llama, the Axle for the east, has a CSG-D and a pair of Counterstrike IVs on it.  Well, that's probably not my best choice.  Ceasar, over on the west, has an ARS and a Data Center.  It's also got A Mass Driver and a Fort III.  Man this galaxy's nasty.

CPA Just announced at 3:16 for 663 ships.  The fleet's going to do some cleanup in the rear to make sure that nothing comes from behind for now.  Shawshank has built up to 270 ships and Twycross is at 127.  Time for cleanup.  There's not much I can do about the 75 on Janeway as the Eye still lives.  The Raids are enroute to deal with that.

With 5 minutes to spare Janeway is emptied and the rear-ward systems are brought down to reasonable reinforcements.  That'll force everything to come in from the front.  I pulled the Raid SSs back to Fraggle to help defend the CC for now from drifters.

At 3:24 with the CPA still inbound my fleet went out for Kerensky again.  Re thinking it, the main fleet stayed home and the bombers alone went out to Kerensky.  To make sure I wasn't bored, another 1200 ship wave (average is ~850) decides to land about the same time the CPA frees up.

The bombers finished theri mission in Kerensky and dragged almost a full cpa back with 'em running for Macross.  Strangely the CPA release isn't in the message log.  The Dyson's troops went out to meet the CPA over in Craps and are currently trying to towtruck the enemy off the wormhole.

3:30: The CPA and waves are cleared, and the fleet's rebuilt.  It's time to push forward while the galaxy's a little more empty since the CPA was kind enough to empty huge swaths of it for me.

3:43:  After taking the fleet down and punching holes through the enemy to Confederation, I finally managed to get scouts down onto Earth.  YEAH!

Posts: Core Booster x1, Electric x3, Leech x1, Missile x1, Neinzul Melee x1, Neinzul Spawner x1, SpireShield x1, ZBombard x1.  Woots!  For extra ships he's got paralyzers.  I've never seen a Melee before and i can't seem to find it on the unit list screen when I'm in the system, either.  Eventually I found it, it's not in the 'post listing' at the bottom.  What's this puppy do... Tachyon, Seeking, Radar Dampening, Mobile guard post?!  Daaaang.  It's a viscious little ram but nothing rediculous... immune to a ton of stuff tho'.

BUT NO RAID OR CPA!  WOOOOOHAAAAAAA!!!!!  (Better check Riker and soon, 'eh?)

However, over half the fleet was wrecked so they went home for R&R.  I can't get scouts down into Desperado (the other arm near Earth) as Kirk is apparently pretty beefy, so I'm not sure what's in there.

Blackjack's a MK IV world.  Having resupplied at Macross, the fleet moves back out to try to pound Blackjack down so the scouts can get deep enough to scrounge around.  I could take Kerensky and its ARS but I'm holding off for now.  However, the Science II goes to investigate.  IREs with EyeBots and Acid Sprayers as alternates.  Not having Exos or the like IREs are a bit underwhelming for this fleet, I'll be hacking Kerensky it looks like.  Hm, Raiders or Bomber Killers?

Enroute to Blackjack, my fleet has to tackle a 550 unit carrier.  Minimal losses with Gatling backup coming through to help in Craps.  MK IVs are worse than 500 MK IIs, joy.  I can only clear about half of Blackjack before the fleet has to make a run for it or get wiped.  One thing about Maws.  Once you start losing badly you end up reinforcing the enemy, and I lost most of them.  The fleet didn't make it home, but two of 10 fully loaded maws did.  yay?

Doing a fleet rebuild now at 3:57.  Z Gennie is at 58%.  I did however completely empty out Blackjack of defenders. :)

4:00 status:

Admiral!  We've established the chokepoint and are currently doing diplomatic work with the Dyson!  The fleet was ruined but we've gotten deep into a number of regions and paved the way for future assaults and scouting!  We've defended a CPA and are well established defensively.

Very good.  Carry on.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #212 on: May 30, 2012, 10:56:32 pm »
Scouting continues while the fleet rebuilds.  Another Data Center is found as well as a Factory IV down in one of the Southwest arms.  I haven't posted a map recently because I'm kind of waiting until I've got most of it scouted before I go through the trouble to mark up an in-line map.  Reviewing Ceasar there's a fortress guarding the inbound wormhole and 166 MK III ships in there that can make me a little crazy.  I'll have to bait the WH clear so I can get the bombers in to clear the entryway if I want to get into the deep west.

On the east, I've found two side by side Z-Gennies at Liao and Blackstone.  They're not heavily entrenched but getting past the Mk IV world Llama right now would be difficult, but something I'll have to do soonish to get near Riker.  I've still only found two of the Co-Ps though.

At 4:15 the fleet's rebuilt.  Kerensky has to fall for both the ARS and the stepping stone it'll create for 2 worlds deeper worth of fighting.  I've found another ARS on the NE sector off Llama, this one with Spiver Vs and Speed Boosters up at Hacker.  I'm not exactly impressed with the fabs but meh.

It's time to hack Kerensky, I feel.  Acid Sprayers with their new upgrades are now quite viable in combat and particularly useful against the Bomber IVs that usually hose me up since I don't tend to upgrade Fighters, and the additional critical mass will help with later assaults on the blockade worlds of Ceasar and Llama.  I've got 3 Science IIs waiting to help absorb the research off the planet once we're ready.  I prepare a ship design hacker for transport to Kerensky.

AIP is 85.  Waves are averaging 800 ships or so, with extremes of 200-1400.  Time to see what a hack-job does.

I park the defenders on the wormhole heading back to safe space.  The fight's not TOO bad, but they are MK III spawns.  I eventually move the fleet down towards the command center to try to keep the guardians from getting significant range on me.  This being the first hack not too much in rediculous is occurring.

However, the tachyon pulse + reinforcements made me 'move' the ship-hacker... resetting the timer.  I reload the hacker into the transport and bring the troops home for R&R.  New plan is needed.

I start building off 4 Riot Is with 2xFFs.  That'll help protect the hacker when I bring it in closer to the fleet for protection.  Well, that only kind of works, I'm having power problems again.  Bring Macross up to 2x Reactors as well.  I really need to get the Z-Gennie up.  With the Riots built I head for Kerensky again with the fleet and hacker in transport.

During the second assault about 250 escaped cutlasses from a recent wave get themselves involved.  They don't lay into the fleet TOO badly, but the maws required some decent micro to stay out of the way.  By five minutes left half the fleet was dead.  I grabbed rebuilds from Macross and shipped them to Kerensky.  Those reinforcements ran into an EMP guardian and had to deal with that in Craps before continuing on.  I'm going to have to Neuter Craps and clear those WH guardians soon.  Particularly since a spider guardian keeps hosing up some of my fleet.

With the reinforcements heavily distracted playing chase the spider and engine problems, the main fleet had to handle the hack with whatever it had left.  Micro'ing the maws was a necessity.  Watching a Raid SS hare off as an Exo-attack was priceless. XD  It wasn't too bad though, really, we were able to hold our own once we had established and the Maws were in position to immedately eat any cmd center builds.

Hack completed at 4:39.  Fleet heads home for R&R... and to WH kill Craps, grrr.

On their way home I saw a neat little independent fleet that might be useful for general cleanups.  Riot Is (with perhaps backup from IIs) and a heavy Missile Frigate upgraded fleet could hold MANY things at range while pounding through an area.  It's worth a try sometime.  I'm not usually a fan of ED but with that kind of range... maybe.

With the fleet pounding out WH Posts on Craps, I prep a small team to take over Macross.  5 Engi Is, Colony Ship, and the RAid SSs to pop the cmd center.  I wait for a wave to pop before I unload and build out the new colony, but the Cmd station's dead.  AIP is 106. 

I'm looking at Craps and realizing it's alerted no matter what I do.  I'm tempted to drop in a minefield in the Kerensky - Macross run, but realize I'd have to figure out a way to keep a permanent rebuilder presense in the system.  I'll think on that while I screw around with other things.  A simple minefield through that system would be helpful.

4:49 and it looks like the AI is waiting to do max-time waves.  Bugger all.  2 WHGPs down though.

I wonder if I setup a cloaked Constructor and auto-built on the enemy planet if that would work.  Well, worth a shot... hm, that'd be a no, the auto-builds for a planet only work on friendly planets.  Meh.

Is it bad that not seeing a wave for 3 minutes longer than I'd expected is actually making me nervous?! XD

4:54 and 3 WHGPs down, last one to go... still waiting... Z-Gen's up to 84% though.

4:57 and a wave finally announces.  1887 ships to Macross.  That's one of them.  The fleet heads home as a just in case as they finish up the last WHGP... where's the doublewave?  Hm.

At 5:00 the other wave finally announces, 2045 ships.  I'm currently chasing down the escaped Carrier of 800+ ships in Craps while I try to get the endless minefield (that took FOREVER to setup in a straight line) up and running in Craps.  With the second wave announced I can finally build out in Kerensky once I get some defenders to it.

When the second wave hits I see just how much 400+ Teleport Raiders can do to a pair of low-end FFs.  Hrm.  Luckily they don't last long enough to do any lasting damage.  We're dealing with a massive fleet rebuild again though, however with Kerensky under control and Acid Sprayers being built (as well as research coming in) I should be alright.  Pair of max-timers indeed... :P!

I'm going to send back a cap of MK V weasels to help defend Macross.  Needless to say with my economy floored again this will take a bit.

Having gotten research, ARS, and a full squad of Weasels out of Kerensky by 5:08, I blow the cmd station to remove wave-confusion.  It's a shame about the fab but nothing I can do about it.  In the meanwhile the mines are rebuilding in Craps for the Kerensky-Macross run...


You don't want to know how long that took.

Now, what to do with 5500 K.  I wanted 6000 K but I needed those scout IIs.  I've got 2.5k to play with.  I'd wanted to immediately head for bomber III but perhaps Frigate MK II would be a worthy upgrade.  While waiting on the fleet to rebuild I contemplate.  I decide more defense is needed.

I purchase Basic IIs, HBC Is, and HFF Is, and drop them mostly on the Whipping Boy with a smattering on Homeworld.  In the meanwhile, to show off, Craps has reinforced an EMP Guardian.  *rolls eyes*.  Nice.

5:16 and still waiting on fleet rebuild.  3250 in K left, I'll MK III my bombers after the next planet, and AIP is 107. (97 without that damnable BHG purchase by the AI!)

Meanwhile, a single frigate is killing the weasel fab.  Oh, shucks.  More reasonable waves are announced at 1332 ships at 5:18.  However, it's double-waving now, 1332 and 1232.  Niiiice...  However, wathing 160 rebel ships + 107 Dyson Gatlings race to eat the inbounds is always pretty, and the minefield worked like a charm.  Just need to not leave the rebuilders on auto-rebuild and wait.  However, apparently Carriers are immune to mines.  That's cute.

5:30 and STILL waiting to rebuild the fleet.  Gyeah.  A Massive buildup of troops has started to form in Shawshank and Twycross.  I'm going to scour the backfield before moving forward once we're fully built.  Power problems are also hassling me, I'm blowing up un-needed transports and ship hackers and the like to conserve power.  With the Z-Gennie at 89% I decide it's time to finally finish the poor thing.

The two planets are cleared with minimal losses and we proceed back to the east for R&R and to continue clearing pathways for the scouts.

I screwed up and had to savescum and repeat this because instead of trying to build FFIs I accidentally unlocked FF IIs in the wrong screen.   ::)  This time a double wave of 2500 ships announces for Macross.  That should be nice and ugly.

5:39: 871 ship CPA announced.  Cleaning out the back is a lot more important now.  Had to turn off the Z-Gennie briefly at 97% to allow the fleet rebuild to finish.

At 5:43 the Z-Gen is finally completed.  Next up is the BHG on Macross so I can research and then build EMP Mines on the wormhole.

The fleet cleaned up the mess in Craps that was keeping my rebuilders and engis from rebuilding the minefield.  Then the fleet hid in Macross.  421 MK II, 13 MK I, 437 MK III freed.  Yep, we're hiding.

I hit Ceasar about 6:00'ish, and my Raids went in first to take down the local Ions and popped the local Data Center while visiting.  They died to the Mass Driver but succeeded in knocking out the three Ions.  My bomber fleet went in next to take out the camping fortress, and over half of them suffered a 2.5 minute paralysis due to the minefield on the wormhole.  Ow.

The main fleet dealt with backwash and then went home.  Bombers vs. Fort III is Ceasar, and the rest can't even get in the WH without losing half the fleet.  I'm going to need to start sending in Fighters as fodder for the minefields on Red planets.

Mistakenly I try to take the remaining bombers on that planet and get out of the wh guardian shots... and hit another minefield.  Those 50 bombers are squish.  At least a good chunk of the local minefield problems and guardian protectors are moved out at this point.

Refilled with bombers at 6:06, the fleet heads back out for Ceasar, round 2.

By 6:15 the fleet had finally cut away enough of the firepower in Ceasar to get scouts through to the deep corners of the southwestern arms.  And found nothing for their troubles.  It was time to work our way east a bit more and see into all the dark corners other then the final bit of the Riker arm.

I snuck my Raids into one of the back corners and took out another Data Center that had been located, bringing AIP to 70 again.  It was a bit of a suicide run and the raids died returning to Macross, but worth it.  3/4 CoPs located.

235 MK IV ships + 4 Ion cannons on Llama.  Just great.

Finally found the fourth CoP, it's down in Desperado.  They also have Plave Vs, StarBomb IVs, and Blade Spaner V Fabs... and a Raid Engine (non-core).  Planet is a MK III.  Mutter.  If I want the CoPs I'll have to take on both the coreworld to get through to Desperado as well as dealing with the Raid Spawns.  I knew I was getting off too easy.  Scout map shortly, just want to dig into the east a bit more.

Well, at 6:35 ish the fleet punched a hole into LLama, but it cost me over 500 ships to do so.  Two of the ions went down as well, however.  The Fleet's heading home for R&R while the Raid SSs which should be about rebuilt prepare for a run.  MK IV guardians enmasse are painful.

However, ALERT ALERT... 700 ships heading to HOMEWORLD on a wave.  WTF?!  A gate guardian must have spawned.  Oh, CRAP.  It's in twycross.  Next stop: Blow away all the wormhole posts to remove # of guardians in backfield against homeworld.  Joy.

The main fleet's running for homeworld (what's left of it, but there ain't much to discuss there.  Everything I had built up at Macross ran for homeworld to help the defenses hold.  Luckily a large chunk of them were Teleport Raiders, which died enmasse easily enough.

It was a desperate defense until the maws got there to save the day... and it's not a gate guardian, the damned AI bought a new warp gate off the traders.  Son of a gun!  AIP 76 (that's 15 AIP that Twycross has cost me in rebuilds now from the traders).

At 6:45 ish the Raids finished Ion removal on Llama and a number of guardians came out to play... and died in the minefield in Craps.  It was a beautiful thing.

My gods, flak guardians under glass are NASTY to a light fleet.  When I took the half-fleet that was left near the cmd center to clean off some of the enemies, I woke half the planet.  The Maws took off running while the rest of the fleet did a moving rear-action to protect the maws from dumping thier cargos.  There was nothing left of the fleet after trying to slow down the enemy chasing the maws.

The maws made it mostly safely to the mining run, and hauled for Macross, hoping to not dump out 100+ MK IV ships on the doorstep.  On a positive note, there's only 36 ships left in Llama!  ;D

At a little after 7 hours I'm still only owning three planets, though I've popped 5.  As promised, here's where I'm at right now:


The yellow dots are untaken ARSs, the blue ones are the Fact IVs.  The purple circles are the CoP locations.  Desperado is the Raid Engine.  I'll have to deal with that one way or another before I go after Earth.  At least it's not CSG protected, just need to get down there.

Blackstone has one last Data Center I can pop.

So, the CSG map:


Here's where things could get tricky.  The CSG-E in the Riker arm (that's HotStar, btw) is a great jump-point to slam into Riker at exactly four worlds out.  Alright, that's the CSG-E.  Of the D's... well, i'm not sure yet.  It might be Llama (the MK IV that feeds the Riker arm) simply because that's a 3/4 world for resources.  However, I'm at 7 hours, I may just wait for the rebel colony.  Of the two Fact IVs, Argyle in the Southwest is the better bet being a 3/1 planet instead of a 3/0 planet and NOT being a MK IV world.  It's also in the middle of BFE, whereas Davion would be MUCH easier to hold from the viewpoint of working the Riker arm.

In regards to the ARSs, I'll get back to you after I get science scouts on them as to which of those two I'm going to take.  If I end up taking the one up at Hacker, however, I'll definately be simply whacking that entire arm from Llama up, and using Davion as my Fact IV.  That leaves me just the CSG-C, which is going to most likely be Desperado once I clean things up down there.  Those fabricators are quite tasty and I want 'em.

However, all of this can pretty much wait until the Rebel Colony spawns at this point.  I'll do cleanup with the fleet for now and finish up the brawls I've been doing but I want to wait for the rebels, as that may allow me to overlap something or make a better decision.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #213 on: May 31, 2012, 09:33:11 pm »
The Main Event!

Been slammed with getting AVWW 1.1 ready, but good to see this going again now that the Dyson has been (theoretically) educated that this game is not actually all about it.

First reinforcement since logging was 19:13, next was 22:25.  So, approximately 3 minute between reinforcements.  This is actually easier to see in Mainthread.txt:
Code: [Select]
5/29/2012 10:43:22 PM (5.035) 0:19:13 ReinforcementCounter reached > 2400 for player 9 (since game was loaded, took 192 checks of (10+rand(2 or 3))[/quote]Yea, that "192 checks" really means 192 seconds since it is checked once a second.  The random is basically just to eventually created a degree of staggering between the players, because 192 flips of a coin where heads is 2 and tails is 3 produces an average [i]rather[/i] close to 2.5.

[quote]so, besides missing a parentheses at the end there, what are we looking at.  AIP is 11.  # of Reinforcements are 3.  Erm?  I own *1* planet.  Alright, that's not what I expected but sure, whatever.[/quote]Normally it'd be 1, but since you're playing on "10 Kill Me Please" it adds 2.

[quote][code]Planets in order of planned reinforcement attempt (note: alerted planets will get two lines, and a line with priority >= 2000 will get tried twice) :
17 (Shawshank) (alerted)  reinforce priority = 0
42 (Twycross) (alerted)  reinforce priority = 0
29 (Riker) (homeworld, +500)  reinforce priority = 500
27 (Earth) (homeworld, +500)  reinforce priority = 500
26 (Kirk) (core, +300)  reinforce priority = 300
12 (Three Kings) (core, +300)  reinforce priority = 300
17 (Shawshank) (alerted)  reinforce priority = 0
42 (Twycross) (alerted)  reinforce priority = 0
(33 more reinforceable planets that are not alerted and have reinforcement priority = 0

Well now, THAT'S odd.  It sent reinforcements to Shawshank, Twycross, and then Shawshank again... ignoring Riker heading up the list in third place.
That is odd.  It should have reinforced Riker on the third one.

(sounds of code rummaging, piercing screams, etc)

Ah, that is an important discovery, then.  It keeps looping over the alerted planets until it either runs out of reinforcements or fails to reinforce any of them in the most recent loop.  So basically if you have any alerted planets (which is basically always unless there's an accident with a warp jammer and a time machine) with room for more reinforcements it's just going to dump everything on them and ignore the rest of the galaxy.  Including, quite notably, the homeworlds and coreworlds.

I've amended the logging in my working copy to put a line after the alerted planets in that list saying that it will keep trying them if they're reinforceable.

Quote
Code: [Select]
******calling SendReinforcementsToPlanet on planet 17 (Shawshank), StrengthBudget = 0
(snip)
after AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType call, reinforcementStrength = 1.89
numberShips = Floor(reinforcementStrength) = 1
StrengthBudget += 3 = 3
Quite the non-sequitur.  What was happening is that numberShips is fed into a variety of logical gymnastics that results in an objectsToBuild list that's generally been padded with some stuff, and the length of that list (3 in this case) is interpreted as the overall strength.  I've amended the logging to make that a little clearer

Quote
--- AIBuyShipsFromList StrengthBudget = 3
bought 1 EngineerDrone for 5
total count bought: 1, total strength spent: 5, remaining = -2
This is one case where that doesn't work out so well ;)  Sure, an engineers normal cap is something like 5x lower than the standard, and normally that means strength is proportionately higher.  But it's an engineer.  Got a fix in my working copy for that now.  Not a big deal in the current game, though, because it'll hit the per-planet max of 6 engineer drone (mkI) pretty fast and stop trying to seed them, iirc.

Quote
Code: [Select]
--- AIBuyShipsFromList StrengthBudget = 2
bought 1 MineLayer for 3.34
MineLayer is the internal name for Remains Rebuilder, fyi.  Back in the day it was really just for rebuilding mines.

Quote
With four guardposts it maxes off at 400 units maximum for popcap (per AI).  However, this says it maxes off at 700 ships.  I'd thought it was 1000 (10 posts = max cap).  It's obviously not.
It varies with unit scale.  The thing where 10 guard posts is important is that once you're at or over 110 AIP a planet with fewer than 10 guard posts is getting extra spawns on its command station.  The corrolary is that you can always reduce reinforcement size by killing guard posts in excess of 10 on a planet.

Quote
AIP/270 and it minimums at strength 1.  That means until AIP 270 while you'll reinforce more planets (because of the # you've taken), you won't see more reinforcements PER reinforcement until you've pushed AIP above 270.  I think.

However, I'm reviewing the initial strength calculation for the command center.  That's based on AIP/10 with AIDiff modifiers.  However, there's a few lines in here I'm not quite sure I understand.
Right: the guard post reinforcements don't start getting heavier until AIP 271.  The command station reinforcements start getting heavier with every point in AIP (in your game it would cap at around 4800 AIP, so no cap really).  And once AIP gets high enough or guard post population gets low enough that can get fairly significant.

Quote
Reinforcement strength = 1.54, which floors to 1.  Then it gets a += of 2 which SHOULD bring it to 3 but leaves it at 2.  Not quite sure how that works.
That's the non-sequitur I was talking about: the 1 for numberShips feeds into the creation of the objectsToBuild list (for the command station pulse, not the guard post ones, totally different function actually) and the size of that determines how much "strength" is contributed to the pool.  No, it doesn't really make a lot of sense, but it was the best merger I could think of between the old way and supporting the "carry over" math I needed to properly police how it picked low-cap ships (blade spawners, etc).

Quote
Now, we go into the first pulse, where in theory the pulse is at least 1.  Then for some reason, the strength budget gets itself a += 3
SpecialForcesCommandPost pulses are larger; notice the rest of the posts get += 1.

Quote
I... don't get it.  Maybe that's the point though.
Security through obscurity!

Quote
1:00:00.  Status report, Ensign!
Sir, we're screwed!
Roger that, Carry on!
:D

Now to actually read the rest...
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #214 on: May 31, 2012, 11:26:26 pm »
The Main Event!

Been slammed with getting AVWW 1.1 ready, but good to see this going again now that the Dyson has been (theoretically) educated that this game is not actually all about it.
The dyson is currently sending me hate mail about your lies...  and I'd figured you were kinda slammed, haven't really seen you posting anywhere.

Quote
Yea, that "192 checks" really means 192 seconds since it is checked once a second.  The random is basically just to eventually created a degree of staggering between the players, because 192 flips of a coin where heads is 2 and tails is 3 produces an average rather close to 2.5.
Yep, makes sense, was just pointing out how it worked out in reality.  :)

Quote
Normally it'd be 1, but since you're playing on "10 Kill Me Please" it adds 2.
8)

Quote
That is odd.  It should have reinforced Riker on the third one.

(sounds of code rummaging, piercing screams, etc)

Ah, that is an important discovery, then.  It keeps looping over the alerted planets until it either runs out of reinforcements or fails to reinforce any of them in the most recent loop.  So basically if you have any alerted planets (which is basically always unless there's an accident with a warp jammer and a time machine) with room for more reinforcements it's just going to dump everything on them and ignore the rest of the galaxy.  Including, quite notably, the homeworlds and coreworlds.

I've amended the logging in my working copy to put a line after the alerted planets in that list saying that it will keep trying them if they're reinforceable.
Cool.  I'd figured it was something of that nature but couldn't really puzzle out the result.

Quote
Quite the non-sequitur.  What was happening is that numberShips is fed into a variety of logical gymnastics that results in an objectsToBuild list that's generally been padded with some stuff, and the length of that list (3 in this case) is interpreted as the overall strength.  I've amended the logging to make that a little clearer.
Cool.  I appreciate you going through this but I've a feeling it can sincerely wait until after 1.1 AVWW, or even 1.2.  I have a feeling turning this into something that it can communicate for itself without having all of the internal functions exposed will be difficult at best.

Quote
This is one case where that doesn't work out so well ;)  Sure, an engineers normal cap is something like 5x lower than the standard, and normally that means strength is proportionately higher.  But it's an engineer.  Got a fix in my working copy for that now.  Not a big deal in the current game, though, because it'll hit the per-planet max of 6 engineer drone (mkI) pretty fast and stop trying to seed them, iirc.
Heh, I'd missed that one.  Sounds like costing for both Engis and Minelayers should be significantly reduced.

Quote
Quote
With four guardposts it maxes off at 400 units maximum for popcap (per AI).  However, this says it maxes off at 700 ships.  I'd thought it was 1000 (10 posts = max cap).  It's obviously not.
It varies with unit scale.  The thing where 10 guard posts is important is that once you're at or over 110 AIP a planet with fewer than 10 guard posts is getting extra spawns on its command station.  The corrolary is that you can always reduce reinforcement size by killing guard posts in excess of 10 on a planet.
Aye, but check this out from the wiki:
http://www.arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Border_Aggression

In theory aggression will occur at 3300 - AIP (let's average it at 200 for sanity).  So at 3100 units CBA will start occurring.  I'm at Normal caps, which is 1/2 caps from High, which I believe is where all calculations are based against.  So, even at 1400/AI cap, that's 2800 ships it'll max off at in a system.  Even at AI 10/10 you're not going to see CBA until you've hit 500 AIP.  That just doesn't sound right.

Quote
Right: the guard post reinforcements don't start getting heavier until AIP 271.  The command station reinforcements start getting heavier with every point in AIP (in your game it would cap at around 4800 AIP, so no cap really).  And once AIP gets high enough or guard post population gets low enough that can get fairly significant.
That's particularly important for early game strategies.  I play late game at low AIP but everyone plays low AIP early game.  This thing needs sun-shine and sparkles on it for emphasis.  ;D

Quote
That's the non-sequitur I was talking about: the 1 for numberShips feeds into the creation of the objectsToBuild list (for the command station pulse, not the guard post ones, totally different function actually) and the size of that determines how much "strength" is contributed to the pool.  No, it doesn't really make a lot of sense, but it was the best merger I could think of between the old way and supporting the "carry over" math I needed to properly police how it picked low-cap ships (blade spawners, etc).
Yeaaaah, um, I'm gonna just nod my head at that for now.  I'm not even sure where ObjectsToBuild comes from.  :P

Quote
SpecialForcesCommandPost pulses are larger; notice the rest of the posts get += 1.
AH!  That helps!

... and then we'll have cake.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #215 on: May 31, 2012, 11:52:11 pm »
Many thanks for the save with the maws getting lockjaw.  It dutifully occurred for me too; I didn't actually debug to find out exactly why it wasn't eating, but I made a change in my working copy that makes it fall back on trying to eat whatever it's shooting at if the normal logic fails.  Retested with your save, result: happy meals for everyone.

On the cloaked ships description flowing over the end... yea, it's a mess.  Really it's not even supposed to tell you what's there, but we've let it go on doing that because it's helpful to know if someone's cloaking-stalked planet has a mess of raptors or rebuiders.  But one of the side effects is trying to pack way too much info into that box when there's a bunch of distinct types.

Quote
Meanwhile, a single frigate is killing the weasel fab.
Missile Frigate?  Weasel Fab?  Now that's downright poetic.  "You want missiles?  I got missiles!".

Quote
However, apparently Carriers are immune to mines.  That's cute.
Instead of 3rd fingers, this game has immunities.  Well, I guess the RNG really takes that place.  Just be glad we don't have anything with randomized immunities.  Very glad.

Quote
and it's not a gate guardian, the damned AI bought a new warp gate off the traders
I didn't even remember it could do that.

Here I was thinking that was pretty much a gimme-faction for the players.

Zenith TradersTraitors.

Quote
Cool.  I appreciate you going through this but I've a feeling it can sincerely wait until after 1.1 AVWW, or even 1.2.  I have a feeling turning this into something that it can communicate for itself without having all of the internal functions exposed will be difficult at best.
I'm ok with it not being crystal-clear to non-developers; what I'm concentrating on is bits of the logging that I don't understand ;)  Reading that bit where it went from numberShips = 1 to strength += 3 was a head-scratcher for me and I had to look it up.

More important is stuff like the "it never actually reinforces a non-alerted planet until all the alerted planets are full" logic, which isn't a bug but is a vital bit of info, and the "engineers are costing as much as 5 high-cap-scale fighters", which is a bug.

This is working out a lot like when we added wave logging, actually: there was about a metric ton or two of really screwy bugs with wave calculations, but after a month or two of distributed scrutiny of the actual math and logic, it got real clean.

Quote
Aye, but check this out from the wiki:
http://www.arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Border_Aggression

In theory aggression will occur at 3300 - AIP (let's average it at 200 for sanity).  So at 3100 units CBA will start occurring.  I'm at Normal caps, which is 1/2 caps from High, which I believe is where all calculations are based against.  So, even at 1400/AI cap, that's 2800 ships it'll max off at in a system.  Even at AI 10/10 you're not going to see CBA until you've hit 500 AIP.  That just doesn't sound right.
I don't even know if that wiki article is remotely correct anymore, it's basically two years old.  But I didn't write the mechanic, so I don't know one way or the other right now.  Will make a note to look when I have a moment, though.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #216 on: May 31, 2012, 11:58:02 pm »
On the cloaked ships description flowing over the end... yea, it's a mess.  Really it's not even supposed to tell you what's there, but we've let it go on doing that because it's helpful to know if someone's cloaking-stalked planet has a mess of raptors or rebuiders.  But one of the side effects is trying to pack way too much info into that box when there's a bunch of distinct types.

If the bug that reveals cloaked unit types is made an official feature, I have proposed something that will make this sort of display much more compact and friendly.
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=6422#c20391
Also see Hearteater's proposed revision to make it even more compact and nice at http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=6422#c20595
which I endorse (iff this bug becomes a feature)

Also, if this bug becomes a feature, my tip of the day will have to be updated.

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #217 on: June 01, 2012, 03:21:15 am »
Awesome news on the Maws, thanks Keith.

Alright, where was I... right, 2000 ship wave inbound... fleet smashed but Raids ready, AIP 78, a little buildup in the backfield, mines on Craps were rebuilding... and me figuring out how to smash a Raid Engine since I've beaten Llama down.

Two ARSs to examine with the Science IIs (which I blew up for power, need a new one) so I need to punch cloaker holes into Hacker.  Ceasar is actually cloak-open.  Build and ship time...

Anything else?  Nah, that should cover immediate goals.  Alright, Operation What's My (Construction) Line? to commence.  Let's see what's in the ARSs while determining a course of action to hammer Desperado open and get a scout to Riker.  That should pretty much cover the time till Rebels.

BHG on Macross is at 78%.  When that finishes I intend to save the game and try repositioning the turrets/FFs on the Craps WH and test out EMP Mines.

Massive amounts of ships (400+) escaped the Macross wave and ran into the field in Craps.  The Rebel Random Support Fleets + Dysons are just wailing away on them.

ARS in Ceasar has Infiltrators as primary (errr, no, they don't really work for me), with Electric Shuttles and Zenith E-Bombers as secondaries.  You know, if raider type units wouldn't set off Raid Engines and the like, maybe that would help bring back 'guerilla warfare' mentalities to smaller unit operations.  Daydreaming again.

Anyway, E-shuttles aren't bad but I consider them more an AI attrition unit then I care about having them in the player arsenal.  Zenith E-Bombers are concentrated fire magnets, but I already have a few of those in the Maws so that's not a horrible thing.  If I go for Ceasar's ARS, it'll be a hack-job for E-Bombers.  Best of the litter, really.  Those Autobombers on Huge look better and better...

Around 7:17 the fleet's fully rebuilt from nearly scratch and I take them on a tour of the backfield to clean up reinforcement litter of about 300 ships on Shawshank and Twycross.  Might as well broom them now before we head out.  That takes about 4 minutes total round trip and the fleet heads back to Macross, R&Rs, and heads out for Llama again.  Need to break the cloak-block on Hacker and finish breaking Llama open.

(Sings along with Alanis Morisette a bit while waiting for the fleet to travel...)

Half tempted to deepstrike the Riker arm to force scouts all the way to Riker... I'll think about it.

About 7:28 I finish breaking Llama and getting the Ion off Hacker.  Science II drops by for a visit and finds Armor Boosters as the primary with Munitions Boosters and Sentinel Frigates as the secondaries.

Hm, Sentinel Frigates.  Munitions Boosters.  These are a few of my favorite things.  Armor Boosters can go rot until armor is re-evaluated usually, however.  Remember, the Huge ARS has Space Tanks as an alternate.  Space Tanks + Armor Boosters?!  Hmmmmmmmmm......

The only problem with THAT grand plan is armor boosters have the lifespans of mayflies with half a mill in hp and a ship cap of 17.  Even at 1 mill/15 for the MK IIs, it's just not enough to boost *1* ship type.

So, ARS choices (I've hacked one already remember):
Huge: Autobomber (Space Tank/Grav Drain)
Ceasar: Infiltrator (Electric Shuttle/Zenith Electric Bomber)
Hacker: Armor Booster (Munitions Booster/Zenith Sentinel)

Hm.  I'll get back to you on that.

The fleet leaves Hacker and heads to Blackstone to clean up the locals and grab a Data Center.  Might as well clean that up before I head down to the Riker arm.

At around 7:30 I'm nearing 1 mill in Crystal so I pop the BHG back to building.  I've got a serious mis-distribution of 500k/900k.  Ah well.  BHG comes online.  I'm not ready to screw around with re-organizing the defensive area yet, so I start up on the Radar Jammer II, priority #2 for the Whipping boy.  It shuts down the Missile Frigs from laying waste to the mid-range turrets (Basics, lasers, and MLRS) while stuck at the entry.  It's also the most expensive of the bunch at 5 mill.  Getting that to 5% wiped out the metals again.

The fleet in Blackstone makes sure it pops the local EMP and all posts before leaving.  It heads back to Macross for R&R before starting the Riker arm deepstrike at 7:37 or so.

AIP 62 has a max-time (ish, I don't watch heavily nor check the logs) coming in at a little over 1000 ships.  Double wave of ~1.1k each announces at 7:37.  Not bad.  On a side note, I hate traveling through Llama, always have this entire time.  It's a HUGE system with the wormholes about 2 minutes apart at Frigate speed.

Watching this fight shows that the Dyson/Rebels, while still VERY powerful in support roles, could not Dyson Ball the system against the numbers I'm facing for waves.  Oh, they make sure rebuilds don't destroy me in cost, but they couldn't do it alone anymore.

Watching the trader leave the homeworld arm I doublecheck that noone bought new Warp Gates on me in the back.  They haven't.

Taking down Batman cost me a decent number of bombers to take out the Fortress hiding in there.  It had a lot of Laser Guardian coverage that chewed up my bombers pretty good.  Lost about 100 ships, 60 of which were bombers.  I still have fighters left, though, which is unusual.

Hitting HotStar and popping the Ions there lost me two Raid Is, so they head home for R&R while the dwindling fleet pushes forward in the Riker arm, after dealing with the loosed threat from HotStar... which was the intent, but the fleet ended up chasing a runaway Starship Disassembler all the way back to Llama.

Upon arriving in Llama and only having 550 ships, I send them home for R&R.  We'll be back.  Threat's at 177 or so from the Raid SS deepstrike which lasted about a minute.  I pull the fleet over in Cyborg on the way home to eat the inbounds at a wormhole entry, instead of having a running attrition war all the way home.

It's 8:00, do you know where your Rebels are?  And I do still get tickled as I watch streamers come into Craps and die in the minefield line.

I've gotten a look at Tau and Krupp on the Riker Road, and they're nothing special.  Some Ions, metric half-ton of guardposts, but nothing to make me concerned.  I do my best to keep the Craps minefield rebuilt anytime the fleet's passing by and it's been working within reason.

At 8:02 the fleet moves out again for the Road to Riker.  I really want that look at Riker.

At 8:06 A 511 ship CPA announces.  There's Roughly 130 ships in the backfield that could try to take on the homeworld or Fraggle.  I debate on being concerned and decide it's not worth the concern.

49 ships lost on entry into HotStar due to mines.  Joy.

Here's why Deepstrikes can be deadly as heck:


WATCH YOUR DEPTH!  Luckily I wasn't horribly concerned, I had a minefield, a Whipping Boy choke, and Dyson/Rebel backup.  But still.  It's only gonna get worse, I ain't done.  the double deepstrike was caused by emp'd units that I scrapped to lower the impact.  The DeepStrike Threat was spawning as MK III, as well.

With only 250 fleet left they popped the Tach Guard in Tau from Krupp and then ran like hell for home... they didn't make it.  The entire fleet was almost a loss.  The only thing I could do was try to keep the maws safe enough to not end up dumping their load of almost 500 MK III ships.  It failed.

Luckily my distraction in the deepstrike allowed me to build up a large economy bankroll for fleet rebuilds and they were rebuilding during the entire time.

I've gotten a look at Three Kings, the coreworld for Riker.  It's ugly.  BHG, AI Eye, 3 Ion Is, 11 Guardposts, and 5 forcefields.  That's gonna be TOUGH to punch through.

The Dyson and Rebels had moved into Craps and engaged most of the threat, taking the rest of the losses for me.

It's 8:14, 2 minutes to CPA.  I've got about 1/4th of the fleet rebuilt.  I'm going to have to defend the homeworld here shortly, but luckily it's not huge numbers.  With some Micro on the scouts, I'm able to get my first look at Riker.

The last 30 minutes have been worth it.  It's pretty clean.  Beam 1, electric 3, leech 2, missile 1, Neinzul Melee 1, Neinzul Spawner 1, Z Fort 1 and Spec 1.  Nothing horrible like an AI Eye or any other rediculous.

Very nice.

The two Spire Archives are on Earth/Kirk, and that's some worthy K right there.

So, true game-ending threats: Raid Engine on Desperado.  Priority Target before AIP increases.  Once I can get into Desperado the two primary targets are the Raid Engine then the CoP, allowing me to pop the other 3.

Second priority: ARSs.  Need to pop two.  Autobombers and Sentinels it is.

Where's my rebels?!
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #218 on: June 01, 2012, 04:25:24 am »
I debated on hitting the sack but I'm not really tired yet, so another hour or so of game.

CPA:
MK I: 19
MK II: 122
MK III: 258
MK IV: 112

Erg.

All of Shawshank and SuperTerminal in the back went active on me, as did all of Twycross.

Go fleet go... 289 ships of the main fleet (maxes at 750 or so) and 6 maws.  Need to protect Fraggle and homeworld.  Luckily all the inbounds from the backfield went for Homeworld... though Shawshank decided to go buy an Ion Cannon that I strolled right into.  Cute.

Of course on the back of this the AIs double wave me with medium sized waves who apparently did some decent damage to the front door of the whipping boy.  That's primarily because I've let the inbound FFs fall.  The minefield was pretty chewed up when I finally got a chance to check on it so I assume the majority of the CPA died in that as well as to a few dyson/rebels who seem to think Craps is the local vacation spot.

With my huge disparity in resources I really wish I could perma-activate Metal Manufactories instead of having them auto-deactivate.  I'd like to enforce the balance, if not an overwhelm on metal.  I currently have 15k/600k.  That's a HAIR off.

So, inspecting Kirk, my next assault point to try to get near the Raid Engine, the Mass Driver and an Ion I are on top of a Stealth Station.  Why do I know?  I can't see the guardpost near it.  If I can pop those then the next raid SS visitation can get the second two Ion Cannons.  Well, it's a suicide dive, in particular due to the wh guardians on inbound, might as well do it now while we're rebuidling and let the Raid Engine's troops hit the whipping boy.

Raid Engine is spawning MK III ships (it's a MK III world) at 802 of them at 67 AIP.  Yep, definately gonna kill this puppy early.

The Raids are able to clear the Mass Driver and all three Ions, but aren't able to reach the Desperado wormhole to try to make a run on the raid engine.  However, of the 177 ships that WERE in Kirk, most of them are leaving.

You. Are. KIDDING. ME.

"Rebel Colony on Craps will lose invisibility protection in 119:55".

Screw you RNG.  ANY planet but that one, please.  Savescum... which was from right before the announcement, by about 40 seconds.  Nice.  Yeah, it's a wuss move, but that's just uncalled for.

Most of the MK Vs ended up getting slaughtered in the Craps minefield, even the guardian fleet.  over 70 ships from Kirk left due to the Raid SSs and came up with the Raid Engine.  Interestingly, I don't immediately get another Rebel Colony announcement though.

The fleet's rebuilt but I'm not sure I want to send them to Kirk yet.  I'm going to wait on another Raid SS set to try to get at the Raid Engine.  I do however send a flock of scouts in to make sure I can see what's going on before they get there.  Desperado's a deepstrike but I'll live with it.

Over half the minefield in Craps was wrecked during the wave inhale before the rebel/dyson crew got involved and chewed up what was left inbound at the entry gate.

Desperado only has 39 units in it, mostly guardians (20 of them).  Poking around I get lucky, there isn't a Grav Guardian between the WH and the Raid Engine.

The FF-less entry WH in Macross allows the locals to just eradicate the AoE turrets on the wormhole.  I'll have to do something about that shortly.  At 8:36 the Raids head for Desperado.  Raid SS vs. Raid Engine.  Go Team Go!

The Raid fleet was half dead but they manage to cold-clock the Raid Engine in one strike.  A quick trip around the system to pop the Ion Cannons and whatever is left will head home.  I set them on Shift Rt-Click and left them to their own devices.  I need to re-organize the Macross entry.

None of the Raids made it home.  They ended up overlapping the Raid Engine's final death throe.

8:40... Ooookay, where'd those Rebels get themselves off to?

Hmph.  Well, need to do SOMETHING with the fleet... Hrm...  Well, I guess I could go clean off Davion in anticipation of taking the Fact IV up there... it's a deepstrike but meh.  It's also got 4 ion Cannons on it that I haven't cleansed.  Oh well.  Three of 'em are packed pretty tight so I shouldn't take attrition for too long, once I clear the entry way of the grav guardian.

8:47 Really?! Where the bleep are my rebels?!

8:48 There they are... on Twycross.  That's a mixed blessing.  It's REALLY going to dilute the impact of the Dyson support.  It does, however, cover the CSG-E I need to get and lends Dyson support to the homeworld.  It'll have to do.  I'll go get 'em when I get the CoP off Desperado and the other planets.  I forgot to ping it when the Raids were last visiting.  It's also an 0/2 world... yay, more crystal! (facepalm)

Looking for other CSG options as part of the Riker arm approach, there's only E-Class CSGs on the Riker Road.  So, no cheap shots there.  So looking at my CSG map... I'll take Hacker and Davion (ARS and Fact IV).  For the D-Class I've got a few options.  There's Pox Aurelia down in the Southwest all by its lonesome being useless (and 0/3 harvesters), Confederation which nets me... well, nothing really, a 2/2 position with 3 Warp Gates to pop, or Llama a 3/4 with 3 warp gates to pop which gets me one more world deeper into Riker Road before I'm deepstriking.

Llama's only real problem: 2 Counterstrike IVs.  Well, we know what the fleet will be doing for a bit, Hacker/Davion will have to wait.

First Counterstrike: 821 MK IVs to Fraggle Rock.  Cripes.  Run for home fleet.  I'm actually half tempted to let it fall and defend from the result on Homeworld, I can soak the powerloss at the moment.  I'll see what damage we can do from the wormhole and prepare to run for the homeworld with its stronger defenses (and strung out MK IV troops).

In the meanwhile, the Raid SSs are rebuilt and head out to do some CoP hunting... starting with Desperado.  Lost 3 of the Raid SSs working a tach guardian down in Kirk, hitting the CoP, then retreating, but hopefully worth it if I can land a permanent scout picket on Earth.  The Mines didn't help any, either.  Fired up around 100 units worth of threat from deepstrike, as well.

The fleet gets to Fraggle Rock with 8 and a half minutes to spare.  Errr, hm, apparently my internal timer's off.  Well, they can park.

I get a ship design hacker ready for transport to Hacker next.  I figure might as well tackle the Hack soon-ish.

Raids go out hunting more CoPs.  This time the one deep in the southwest on Pai Gow.  I'm trying to work from the deepest to the shallowest so I deal with the inflated AIP for as little amount of time as possible.  That went a lot better, almost nothing's down there.  Confederation next and that goes very simply and they head for the last one on Twycross with no hands lost.  Success.  AIP 42.  The Raids get a repair and head to pop the second Counterstrike on LLama.  I should have enough time gap now (5 minutes left on the Counterstrike timer).

The only AIP reducer left is now the SuperTerminal in the backfield.  I don't think I'll need it.

The second Counterstrike ALSO heads for Fraggle Rock.  That planet is really on the AI's hitlist.  Well, considering I only HAVE three planets I'm very happy it didn't go for homeworld, however Macross would have been a nice change of pace.  With the reduced AIP only 420 MK IVs for Fraggle on the second wave.

9:00 Status:
Admiral?!

He's dead, son, what is it?

Errr, Captain, a massive amount of the enemy are detected warping into the backfield!  However, Raid Engine is dead, paths to the CSGs have been cleared, and we're prepared to retake more of our lost technology.  The front line is holding and hacking on the AI has been successful, we've negated a lot of its notice of us and a few of its sensors think we're dead when we're alive.

Very good, send the fleet to attempt to protect the Fraggle Rock assets but make sure they don't die defending the station.  Evacuate everyone and set the station on remote control from the Human Housing Structures.  Fraggle Rock is not to be defended to the last man, let it fall if it must.  We must defend the homeworld and a dead fleet can't defend anything.

Aye aye, Captain!  Oh, Captain?

Yes?

When you die too, who takes over?

Why, Ensign... that'd be you.  Try not to die, alright?

Yes, sir!
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #219 on: June 01, 2012, 05:14:55 am »
9:00 and the Radar Jammer II is at 35%.  Not too bad.

Twiddle.  Here little counterstrike.  The re-positioning on the inbound gate for Macross is working nicely.  I've got 5 FFs protecting the short-range AoE cannons just off the wormhole, leaving them enough room to spawn without automatically being at point blank range.  Eventually I plan to fill some of that area with EMP Mines.  But not yet, it's an experiment and I want a quiet save to work with for that.

When the Counterstrike hit, the majority of the enemy went for the fleet, not the command post.  The 200 or so ships that did head for the cmd center (including 75 T-Leeches) are going to be plenty enough for the light defenses there.

The Raid SS escaped the fleet, unfortunately.  The Leeches alone were enough to take down the command center.

A rebel fleet belatedly came to help Fraggle Rock from the invaders.  With the fall of fraggle, however, the main fleet headed for Homeworld, trying to get there before 250+ cutlasses could do significant damage.  They arrived before the cutlasses did any serious damage but I lost the unbuilt Trader-Toys.  The Z-Gennie was saved, however.

My maws, having 400 or more MK IV ships in their holds are sent to protective custody for the moment.  We'll defend from wave two on Homeworld as well... that was too close with the cutlasses.  Even at half volume that was WAY too close.

However, the rebel dudes are annoying me.  I purposely ignored a few SF posts in the backfield to allow them to drain into the turrets on homeworld... and they just upped me two AIP to 43 by popping two of them on Shawshank.  Thanks guys.

5:25 till wave 2.  With the Raid SS's ready to go I look for a likely target... cranking the posts/ions off Davion looks like a plan to me.  Off you go, boys!  Oof, almost really screwed up, there's an EMP IV in there.  It can wait until the main fleet gets there.  Threat's at 1200 by the time I'm done with the deepstrike on Davion, but most of the MK IV guardians are cleared off and the fourpack of Ions are dead.  The threat can play with the minefield/whipping boy while I deal with the counterstrike... in 15 seconds from now.

The AI has crossed the 200 total progress threshhold and I finally see what it's going to open.  Anti-Armor ships.  Glad I decided against the tank/booster combo.

Defenses have gone well, over 500 ships are left in the main fleet at the end.  I move to rebuild Fraggle.

At 9:16 defenses are successful.  The fleet heads back to Macross for R&R while Fraggle gets itself rebuilt.

9:20 the fleet's in place.  I want to see how well EMP Mines will work.  I save the game and unlock them.  Simple experiment to follow:

I setup a small stack of them on the inbound wormhole.  I'm not quite sure how far to spread them but a wave announces while they're building so I can simply watch here shortly.

OMG, sooo BRUTAL.  That's ... wow.

I need to set them to a depth of about 7 layers deep off the wormhole (I only used 4 at first), but the AoE EMP hits even Missile Frigates, who are only immune to Area Damage (which doesn't exactly explain them ignoring Tazers but that's another story).  With very minor hits in the minefield a lot of ships ended up in 2.5 minute or higher paralysis.  Couple that with nearby AoEs under glass and the 450 ships inbound didn't even stand a chance.

I don't think I'm going to scum this.  As a matter of fact, I'm going to embrace the new mines.  They are my new friend.


With no reason to hold back on AIP gains now that the AIP reactant strategical targets were down, it was time to get to work.  First up, I want my Rebels.  Take Twycross out and then move with ship hacker towards Hacker.

AI is responding to me hacking on Craps while I'm moving the Ship Hacker.  Seriously?  I thought this got fixed... back everyone up...

Apparently a mobile builder can build me a ship-hacker when I'm there.  This sounds like a better plan then hacking my way across the blasted universe, since the transports will die before we get there.

Okay, that's just not frickin' cool.  The Mobile Builder can't construct the hacker without supply.  Actually, it can't do jack shinola without supply.

Meh, I'll deal with this tomorrow.  Tired now and was on 'just one more thing' mode.  Well, one more thing is annoying me.  Savescummed to before I wasted a few minutes traveling the galaxy uselessly via autosave and saved off the game.

See ya tomorrow or over the weekend.

Addendum: At 9:30 a 930 ship wave announced (that's a little convenient in numbers, heh).  I hung out to see how well the EMP mines would perform against a more serious wave volume.

Because of the way the wave spawns coming out of the wormhole only the leading edge really gets EMP'd.  The rest mill around in the destroyed mines area and pound on the FF's for the local AoE's.  They're useful, but they're not overkill, unfortunately.  I did realize however I need to drop some UNDER the FF for cutlasses on the assault.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 05:23:02 am by Wanderer »
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #220 on: June 01, 2012, 09:34:05 am »
With my huge disparity in resources I really wish I could perma-activate Metal Manufactories instead of having them auto-deactivate.  I'd like to enforce the balance, if not an overwhelm on metal.  I currently have 15k/600k.  That's a HAIR off.
You can turn off auto-manufacturer management in the settings and that would let you leave them on permanently.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #221 on: June 01, 2012, 11:00:29 am »
On infiltrators, do not underestimate the ability to fire through forcefields.  But yea, they're not ships, they're guns in space.  They strike, you cheer; enemy sneezes, you rebuild.

Zelecs could be interesting.  I've seen a lot of players turning their noses up at them and I'm not sure if it's because of an actual deficiency or a misunderstanding.  Back in the "AI no get talky man. Bomber is bomber, right?" days zelecs were greatly feared: think 1000 bombers are threatening?  Try 1000 zelecs.  They also wound up needing some nerfs for player usage, iirc.

But you may really want to save that hacking for the superterminal as a hole card against AIP.  Dunno.

Quote
Watching this fight shows that the Dyson/Rebels, while still VERY powerful in support roles, could not Dyson Ball the system against the numbers I'm facing for waves.  Oh, they make sure rebuilds don't destroy me in cost, but they couldn't do it alone anymore.
Ah, good to know it's a step in the right direction at least :)  And now a player can choose how powerful they want them.  I'm assuming you did 4/10 on all variable stuff present?

Great to get that look at Riker.  Sounds like the RNG took the day off or something ;)  Maybe your spies successfully convinced the Core Raid Engines to unionize and it's all tied up in contract negotiations..

Without homeworlds full of punishators and playnihilators, sounds like you've got a genuine shot at victory :)  Which sounds like a bug ;)

Quote
a few dyson/rebels who seem to think Craps is the local vacation spot
See the world! Bring the kids! Shoot the locals!

Quote
"Rebel Colony on Craps will lose invisibility protection in 119:55"
RNG not so on vacation after all ;)  An understandable savescum; there are going to be some moments on 10/10 where it's either that or "do I really want to see what happens?".  I guess you could move the whipping boy to Kerensky since you've already taken it, but I'm not sure what implications that would have had (beyond the cost of new trader toys and the actual bulk move).

Quote
Interestingly, I don't immediately get another Rebel Colony announcement though.
There's a bit of randomization in the threshold.  You probably rolled really low on one of the checks and that's how you got it "early" the first time.

Very interesting how you're getting such a crystal-heavy distribution; the seeding is fairly crystal-heavy on human homeworlds a lot of the time, and deliberately metal-heavy just about everywhere else.  But randomization being what it is...

Quote
However, the rebel dudes are annoying me.  I purposely ignored a few SF posts in the backfield to allow them to drain into the turrets on homeworld... and they just upped me two AIP to 43 by popping two of them on Shawshank.  Thanks guys.
"Stickin' it to the man!" "Could you please stick it to that other man?" "Oh, um, sure."

Quote
AI is responding to me hacking on Craps while I'm moving the Ship Hacker.  Seriously?  I thought this got fixed... back everyone up...
I think of it more as a feature ;)  AI sees one of those, it goes bonkers.  Stick it in a transport... ah, right, too far.  Or build it locally, as you say... ah, right, no supply.  Yea, that's a pretty s-o-l situation.  Maybe I really do need to make it not cause hack response while it's moving ;)

Glad to hear the EMP mines were effective in a way that was hilarious but not "can stop any threat while you sip lemonade under a beach umbrella".  Thanks for giving those a real-world test.  Interesting interaction on the missile frigates being immune to aoe but not to mines (though if you ever face mkVs they also have mine immunity, not sure if that prevents the EMP splash but I think it does).
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #222 on: June 01, 2012, 03:47:36 pm »
On infiltrators, do not underestimate the ability to fire through forcefields.  But yea, they're not ships, they're guns in space.  They strike, you cheer; enemy sneezes, you rebuild.
I don't, not in particular, and something that could whack guardians under glass would be very useful.  However, with the maws vacuuming up smaller ships and the Raid SSs available to pick off the guardians when necessary, they're not a toy I consider highly important.  I also haven't really found powerful ways to use them than the obvious and they're just not powerful enough in my hands.

Quote
Zelecs could be interesting.  I've seen a lot of players turning their noses up at them and I'm not sure if it's because of an actual deficiency or a misunderstanding.  Back in the "AI no get talky man. Bomber is bomber, right?" days zelecs were greatly feared: think 1000 bombers are threatening?  Try 1000 zelecs.  They also wound up needing some nerfs for player usage, iirc.
It's not that I don't like them, I just don't find them powerful enough except on defense because of the AI unit spreads.  I particularly don't find them powerful enough to hack for.

Quote
But you may really want to save that hacking for the superterminal as a hole card against AIP.  Dunno.
  It's a double-edged sword, that.  The SuperTerminal is far too close to homeworld for my liking.  After the second hack for Z Sentinels, that Hack-value is going to be pretty high.  I don't want to triple hack though in case I decide I want to K-Raid or hit the ST, you're right though.  At 120k in hacking after Ship Hack #2 I'm not sure I can afford to hack again, honestly.

Quote
Ah, good to know it's a step in the right direction at least :)  And now a player can choose how powerful they want them.  I'm assuming you did 4/10 on all variable stuff present?
Yep, everything is 4/10 default.  The Dysons at AIP actually could possibly hold a whipping boy at 7/7 still.  At 10/10 however the waves will overwhelm them not due to numbers but by simply having the critical mass to bypass them if they chose.  They could probably kill the Dysons too in large mass but they can't defeat them as a stream (think CPA attacks).

Quote
Great to get that look at Riker.  Sounds like the RNG took the day off or something ;)  Maybe your spies successfully convinced the Core Raid Engines to unionize and it's all tied up in contract negotiations..

Without homeworlds full of punishators and playnihilators, sounds like you've got a genuine shot at victory :)  Which sounds like a bug ;)
Someone beat 10/10!  Bug report!  But you're right, I'm seeing a game I can win here.

Quote
Quote
"Rebel Colony on Craps will lose invisibility protection in 119:55"
RNG not so on vacation after all ;)  An understandable savescum; there are going to be some moments on 10/10 where it's either that or "do I really want to see what happens?".  I guess you could move the whipping boy to Kerensky since you've already taken it, but I'm not sure what implications that would have had (beyond the cost of new trader toys and the actual bulk move).
The biggest deal with moving the primary whipping boy is the loss of the Dyson support.  While they can't Dyson Ball the enemy to death, one thing they are doing is keeping repair costs lower between waves and providing a significant amount of firepower to make sure back to backs and dual-waves can't overwhelm it by simple volume.  Eventually I'm sure they will but with me adding little things here and there (like the EMPs) I hope to stay ahead of the curve.

Quote
Very interesting how you're getting such a crystal-heavy distribution; the seeding is fairly crystal-heavy on human homeworlds a lot of the time, and deliberately metal-heavy just about everywhere else.  But randomization being what it is...
Yeah, just slightly annoying.  It's a matter of my ships also being heavily metal hungry (Bombers to II, Maws, Grenade Launchers) also skewing things horribly to the right.

Quote
"Stickin' it to the man!" "Could you please stick it to that other man?" "Oh, um, sure."
LOL, yep!  Sounds just about right!

Quote
I think of it more as a feature ;)  AI sees one of those, it goes bonkers.  Stick it in a transport... ah, right, too far.  Or build it locally, as you say... ah, right, no supply.  Yea, that's a pretty s-o-l situation.  Maybe I really do need to make it not cause hack response while it's moving ;)
That would be preferable, or let us power it down or something.  I was planning on taking Llama eventually anyway so I'll just have to tag it early as a support for the hack, but that was a frustrating moment (particularly when I was tired) to realize I would HAVE to do that.

Quote
Glad to hear the EMP mines were effective in a way that was hilarious but not "can stop any threat while you sip lemonade under a beach umbrella".  Thanks for giving those a real-world test.  Interesting interaction on the missile frigates being immune to aoe but not to mines (though if you ever face mkVs they also have mine immunity, not sure if that prevents the EMP splash but I think it does).
They'll continue getting tested so I'll have a pretty solid idea of the results here eventually.  However, the value of EMP vs. the value of AoE Damage mines is inverted in the K costs.  I'd recommend, at the least, bringing AoE Damage mines down to the same K cost as EMP.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #223 on: June 01, 2012, 03:48:02 pm »
With my huge disparity in resources I really wish I could perma-activate Metal Manufactories instead of having them auto-deactivate.  I'd like to enforce the balance, if not an overwhelm on metal.  I currently have 15k/600k.  That's a HAIR off.
You can turn off auto-manufacturer management in the settings and that would let you leave them on permanently.

True, but that could hose me up in other ways.  Guess I'm looking for best of both worlds.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #224 on: June 01, 2012, 05:32:38 pm »
With my huge disparity in resources I really wish I could perma-activate Metal Manufactories instead of having them auto-deactivate.  I'd like to enforce the balance, if not an overwhelm on metal.  I currently have 15k/600k.  That's a HAIR off.
You can turn off auto-manufacturer management in the settings and that would let you leave them on permanently.

True, but that could hose me up in other ways.  Guess I'm looking for best of both worlds.

Maybe a new control option, aggresive manufactories? When checked, the manufactories management algorithm tries to keep metal and crystal even, not merely try to avoid handle shortages and overflow.