Author Topic: Special Fortress Captain  (Read 4661 times)

Offline Faulty Logic

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Special Fortress Captain
« on: September 12, 2012, 10:54:06 pm »
Trying the fortress king, and seeing if the SF captain now deserves its hard status. 10/10 for maximum fun.

Goal: see if the .2 homeworld increase from a champion makes FS impossible. If not, apply 3 spire dreadnaughts (and the rest) to the AI's face. And, as always, to cause a bug report.

Simple 80 planets, don't have the seed this time, Z mirrors are my starting ship. Normal and champion.

Minor factions:

marauders 6
resistance 4
rebellions 6
Z traders
Z dyson sphere 4
broken golems 4
spirecraft moderate
Fallen Spire 4

Complete visiblity, Schizophrenic, Avengers, Hybrids 4 and 4, advanced hybrids 7 and 0, no CSGs. This is more of a fun-oriented game. I will end up taking all the planets which would have CSGs anyway.

Unlock fighters mkII, build fighters I-II and riot Is to repel the first waves. Once I have my mkI fleet and riots, I send the champion in normal transports to do two nebulae. After completing the Epsilon Eridani Remnant and the Shattered Pillar vs. Astids and DS, I use my new destroyer to raid for reptite rams to destroy a mod fort command station, and pysite for jumpships to raid two dcs.

I then take a planet with a hive golem (these are awesome.) and an ARS (bulletproofs. We meet again.).

I use the jumpships to do three more nebulae, achieving cruiser size. They were grey spire vs gatlings (23 gatlings reclaimed, saving them), the neinzul mourners, and the pillar vs citadel.

I have the refugee outpost built by the time of the first cpa. 2700 mkII fleetships are unceremoniously swarmed and overwhelmed by 500 wasps. Hive golems rule.

I recover the first city shard, take three planets, and build the first spire city. AI response has been containable thus far, though I don't think I could do it without golem support at this difficulty (with a champion, without resorting to warheads).

Before my economy can actually build the first hub, the first golem exo arrives: HK mkI and a couple hundred escorts.

Unceremoniously swarmed and overwhelmed.

By now the hybrids have thoroughly entrenched my three border worlds. I spend most of the next two hours building up my spire city/fleet, fortifying my chokepoint, cleansing hybrids cheaply (ie with the champion), and dealing with a super hybrid plot (one reptite ram under cloak kills it quite neatly).

I have unlocked fighters II, harvesters III, Zenith and Spire SSs I, engi IIs, forcefield IIs, and hbc, missile, basic, laser, and mlrs turrets II, as well as grav turrets I. Most of this, along with the neinzul and zenith modular forts, is on my chokepoint.

I recover the second city shard with no issue.

cpa2 has 5000 ships, and requires tactics. Grumble. Specifically, riot-tractoring into the chop-shop. Which is really hard to pull off, because the enemy has Z siege engines. This is a nightmare when dealing with a theatball, or worse, a special forces staging ground. Quintuple champion shields still allow the tactic, as does sending the riots and champion in a transport, so they waste their shot.

Rebel colony declared in an extremely inconvienient location. However, they are there, and that makes me happy after their multi-game hiatus.

Build the second city. I will need to take the surrounding systems to expand it.

As I am rebuilding from the city-hub-placement spawn, the third cpa is announced, and it will bring 7000 ships to the party. At the same time as a normal FS exo. 4500 of those end up as mkIII instead of mkII.

It was tricky. Hive golems are awesome.

Other thoughts:

What happened to waves? I updated to 5.079 and the waves are about an order of magnitude (literally) smaller.

Z siege engines are brutal in the hands of the AI.

Fleetships, even only mkI, are not to be underestimated.

Drones are fun.

The fortress king shreds basically everything.

State of empire: P6 means "will put spire city here" P4s will be taken for other reasons.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 11:28:43 pm by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Special Fortress Captain
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2012, 11:03:55 pm »
Biggest things I notice when fighting special forces captain is

1) If you stay on any special forces protected world and don't micro it, the pain train derails you
2) The high number of special forces posts eats away on at aip...especially so when you play higher difficulty low aip games.
Life is short. Have fun.

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Special Fortress Captain
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2012, 11:06:07 pm »
1) Oh yes they do. Especially when they show up with 50 Z seige engines. Ow.
2) That would be annoying, but this will not be a low AIP game.
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Special Fortress Captain
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2012, 10:05:09 am »
Entertaining :)

What happened to waves? I updated to 5.079 and the waves are about an order of magnitude (literally) smaller.
Odd, shouldn't be that way.  Should actually be a bit bigger because it isn't applying the 0.9 multiplier for mkII waves.  Wave-calc logs (preferably including some entries from before the magnitude drop, even if from another game)?

Quote
The fortress king shreds basically everything.
Yes indeedy, multipurpose ginsu knife to the face.  It's a good way to visualize what AI normal-forts would be like without their penalty-vs-polycrystal.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Special Fortress Captain
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2012, 10:29:40 am »
Yes indeedy, multipurpose ginsu knife to the face.  It's a good way to visualize what AI normal-forts would be like without their penalty-vs-polycrystal.

More like trencher to the face.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Special Fortress Captain
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2012, 11:50:03 am »
Yes indeedy, multipurpose ginsu knife to the face.  It's a good way to visualize what AI normal-forts would be like without their penalty-vs-polycrystal.

More like trencher to the face.
Trucks?  We don't build trucks.  We build chainsaws, and put engines on them.
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Special Fortress Captain
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2012, 01:23:31 pm »
Quote
Quote
The fortress king shreds basically everything.
Yes indeedy, multipurpose ginsu knife to the face.  It's a good way to visualize what AI normal-forts would be like without their penalty-vs-polycrystal.

Solution: RAMMING SPEED!

Quote
Odd, shouldn't be that way.  Should actually be a bit bigger because it isn't applying the 0.9 multiplier for mkII waves.  Wave-calc logs (preferably including some entries from before the magnitude drop, even if from another game)?

How does one acquire these mythical wave-calculation logs?
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Special Fortress Captain
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2012, 01:33:44 pm »
Solution: RAMMING SPEED!
Well done, D-Day.

Quote
Quote
Odd, shouldn't be that way.  Should actually be a bit bigger because it isn't applying the 0.9 multiplier for mkII waves.  Wave-calc logs (preferably including some entries from before the magnitude drop, even if from another game)?

How does one acquire these mythical wave-calculation logs?
Oh, I thought I'd gotten some from you before.

1) Settings window -> Advanced tab -> check the Advanced Logging toggle
2) Play
3) When a wave is announced (not actually launched) it adds an entry in AIThreadWaveComputationLog.txt and a couple entries (before and after the handoff to the AI thread) to MainThreadWaveComputationLog.txt, both in your RuntimeData directory.  So just grab those when you're done.
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Special Fortress Captain
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2012, 01:36:21 pm »
Thanks, I will have those attached to the next update.

Edit: turns out I always play with advanced logging, so I have these here.

From the Peacemaker/Sledgehammer game:

Code: [Select]
9/5/2012 2:35:08 AM (5.078)
-----------------------------------
Starting CreateMixedWaveToPlanet at Game Time: 10:43:10 ; Player.AIType: Peacemaker ; Player.AIDifficulty: 10 ; AIProgressionLevel: 112 ; AITechLevel: 5
WaveSize = MultiplierFromWaveInterval * MultiplierFromHumanHomePlanetAndChampionCount: 2 * 1.07 = 2.13
aiTypeBasedAIPIncrement : 0
since difficulty >= 8, effectiveAIP = floor( ( AIProgressionLevel * 0.8 ) ^ 1.1 ) : 140
workingShips = ( effectiveAIP * player.AIDifficulty ) / ( 13 - player.AIDifficulty ) : 466.67
workingShips *= FInt.FromParts( 0, AILoop.Instance.AIRandom.Next( 800, 1100 ) ) : 464.73
workingShips = Max(workingShips,34 * handicap_multiplier) :464.73
Inside AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType, multiplier: 1
after AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType call, workingShips :464.73
numberShips = workingShips.IntValue :464


9/5/2012 2:51:03 AM (5.078)
-----------------------------------
Starting CreateHomogenousWaveToPlanet at Game Time: 10:47:13 ; Player.AIType: Sledge_Hammer ; Player.AIDifficulty: 10 ; AIProgressionLevel: 128 ; AITechLevel: 2
WaveSize = MultiplierFromWaveInterval * MultiplierFromHumanHomePlanetAndChampionCount: 2.11 * 1.2 = 2.54
aiTypeBasedAIPIncrement : 30
since difficulty >= 8, effectiveAIP = floor( ( AIProgressionLevel * 0.8 ) ^ 1.1 ) : 205
workingShips = ( effectiveAIP * player.AIDifficulty ) / ( 13 - player.AIDifficulty ) : 683.33
workingShips *= FInt.FromParts( 0, AILoop.Instance.AIRandom.Next( 800, 1100 ) ) : 688
workingShips = Max(workingShips,34 * handicap_multiplier) :688
Inside AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType, multiplier: 1
after AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType call, workingShips :688
numberShips = workingShips.IntValue :688
numberTech123 = numberShips - numberExplosive - numberCore :688

From the current game:

Quote
9/12/2012 11:30:48 AM (5.079)
-----------------------------------
Starting CreateMixedWaveToPlanet at Game Time: 7:11:04 ; Player.AIType: FortressKing ; Player.AIDifficulty: 10 ; AIProgressionLevel: 34 ; AITechLevel: 2
WaveSize = MultiplierFromWaveInterval * MultiplierFromHumanHomePlanetAndChampionCount: 2.41 * 1.2 = 2.9
aiTypeBasedAIPIncrement : 0
since difficulty >= 8, effectiveAIP = floor( ( AIProgressionLevel * 0.8 ) ^ 1.1 ) : 37
workingShips = ( effectiveAIP * player.AIDifficulty ) / ( 13 - player.AIDifficulty ) : 123.33
workingShips *= FInt.FromParts( 0, AILoop.Instance.AIRandom.Next( 800, 1100 ) ) : 128.99
workingShips = Max(workingShips,34 * handicap_multiplier) :128.99
Inside AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType, multiplier: 1
after AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType call, workingShips :128.99
numberShips = workingShips.IntValue :128
numberTech123 = numberShips - numberDefensive - numberExplosive - numberCore :128


9/12/2012 12:00:29 PM (5.079)
-----------------------------------
Starting CreateHomogenousWaveToPlanet at Game Time: 7:36:09 ; Player.AIType: Special_Forces_Captain ; Player.AIDifficulty: 10 ; AIProgressionLevel: 34 ; AITechLevel: 2
WaveSize = MultiplierFromWaveInterval * MultiplierFromHumanHomePlanetAndChampionCount: 2.68 * 1.2 = 3.22
aiTypeBasedAIPIncrement : 0
since difficulty >= 8, effectiveAIP = floor( ( AIProgressionLevel * 0.8 ) ^ 1.1 ) : 37
workingShips = ( effectiveAIP * player.AIDifficulty ) / ( 13 - player.AIDifficulty ) : 123.33
workingShips *= FInt.FromParts( 0, AILoop.Instance.AIRandom.Next( 800, 1100 ) ) : 118.27
workingShips = Max(workingShips,34 * handicap_multiplier) :118.27
Inside AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType, multiplier: 1
after AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType call, workingShips :118.27
numberShips = workingShips.IntValue :118
numberTech123 = numberShips - numberExplosive - numberCore :118

Hmm. the numberShips term does not appear to be the actual number of ships. I had waves of thousands in my last game. Also, these calc-logs are about what you would expect given the 34:128 AIPs. Is there another point at which the number of ships is modified? I can get saves if that would help.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 01:54:29 pm by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Special Fortress Captain
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2012, 08:34:07 pm »
Update: game lost.

10000 ship cpa (with mostly mkIII-IV ships)+golem exo+3 city FS exo+ 4000 ship bomber wave= dead player.  Some exo-group got in and destroyed one of my ZPGs, and the energy brownout was the last nail in the coffin.

I will try again on a new map, and hopefully the AI won't have Z siege engines. Which I now hate more than eyebots. They murdered even a 2-city FS fleet with champion in a couple of volleys. With a normal threatball. And the SF captain had groups of hundreds of the things.
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Special Fortress Captain
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2012, 08:38:31 pm »
Update: game lost.
Woot! ;)

Quote
10000 ship cpa
Yea, I was kinda counting on these guys to carry the ball downfield, supported by whatever other craziness happened to be going on at the time.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Special Fortress Captain
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2012, 08:46:36 pm »
Tackle Drones > Siege Engines maybe?

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Special Fortress Captain
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2012, 09:00:38 pm »
Siege engines have tractor immunity.

Update: game lost.
Woot! ;)

Quote
10000 ship cpa
Yea, I was kinda counting on these guys to carry the ball downfield, supported by whatever other craziness happened to be going on at the time.

Why are you always happy when we lose?

Things didn't really go wrong until the AI spawned a warp gate guardian on a gate-raided planet, enabling an exo group to spawn behind my massive chokepoind, popping a ZPG, disabling the forcefields of said massive chokepoint... You know, this belongs in the "this AI is awesome" thread.

I still don't know if the champion makes FS impossible (for 10/10). I now strongly suspect it does. Or at least makes it much harder than it should. Will try again, possibly with different AIs.
Special Forces Captain now deserves its "hard" status.
Fortress king would have been really unpleasant without spirecraft.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 05:17:06 am by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Special Fortress Captain
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2012, 09:09:43 pm »
Why are you always happy when we lose?
Generally it means I've done my job :)

Or made a bug unleashing a dark-spire-zombie-apocalypse upon the galaxy, but either way it's entertaining.
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Special Fortress Captain
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2012, 09:16:28 pm »
Why are you always happy when we lose?
Generally it means I've done my job :)

Or made a bug unleashing a dark-spire-zombie-apocalypse upon the galaxy, but either way it's entertaining.

Then keep up the good work. 10/10 is still winnable.

Glad you're feeling better, if only because I want more AIWar stuff (also some requisite-empathy-for-sick-people, but mainly...).

What is your stance on the AI Homeworlds? And the possible buffing thereof?
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.