Author Topic: Rise of the Neinzul  (Read 5275 times)

Offline Hearteater

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Rise of the Neinzul
« on: August 16, 2012, 02:07:56 pm »
With 5.051 I decided to give difficulty 8 a try, and break open The Children of the Neinzul.  I also put a requirement on myself that I pick a Youngling bonus ship to get a feel for how they work.

8 Golemite with Hybrid Hives 4
8 Neinzul Youngster with Hybrid Hives 4

Minion Factions: Broken Golems - Hard 4, Zenith Trader, Zenith Dyson Sphere 4, Human Resistance Fighters 4, Neinzul Rocketry Corps 4, Neinzul Preservation Wardens 4, Neinzul Roaming Enclaves 4
Expansions Active: The Zenith Remnant, The Children of Neinzul
AI Progress: +1 / 30 minutes
Speed and Caps: Normal / Normal
Map: Simple (791330646)

Bonus Ship: Youngling Weasel

0:46 [11 AIP]
I spend some time setting up homeworld defense and stopping waves.  I've got a Super Terminal and a Grav Driller next to my homeworld, so expanding might be an issue.  I don't want to capture the Super Terminal system for awhile, so I'll just need to clear that out without claiming it if I want waves off my homeworld.

Unlocks: Gravitational Turrets, Metal Harvester III

2:46 [78 AIP]
I Clear Artemis, which has the Super Terminal, and Cadia, which has the Gravity Drill.  Hilariously, Human Resistance Fighters are immune to gravity and they show up to help speed up the clearing of Cadia.  I then take Golgotha, fortify it, and leave the only Warp Gate next to that so all waves will now come in through there.

Unlocks: Youngling Weasel II, Scout Drone II, Basic Turret II

5:30 [119 AIP]
Cadia is set up as a choke point (aka whipping boy) for the remainder of the game.  This choke proves so strong, for all intents and purposes, waves are non-existent.  With a Military Command Station in a Gravity Drill system, nothing can touch me.  Younglings can't even make it in range before they self attrition.  Once the Super Fortress gets completed, this choke point reaches the status of godlike.  The only danger it faces is an attack from Hagia which would puts AI ships right next to the Gravity Drill itself, or an Artillery Golem from the Golemite or an Exo.

While Cadia is getting setup, my first Exo hits.  It contains an Artillery Goelm and it comes in from Artemis.  I just don't have the forces to deal 100 million damage before the Artillery comes through to Yu'Kanesh and evaporates my Force Fields and Home Command Station in short order.  I save scum and get a different Exo coming in from three locations, two of which are Cadia, which is handled without much difficulty.

Unlocks: Crystal Harvester III, Hardened Force Field I, Force Field II

9:30 [170 AIP]
From this point on, I use exclusively Younglings and golems for offense, and my other ships for defense of my homeworld.  This gets so ridiculous I actually almost hit my cap of Space Docks.  This is because I build Space Docks in pairs all over and set them to loop build Youngling Weasels I & II with the rally point set to FRD on whatever the target system I'm trying to take is.  I leave these Space Dock pairs up but powered down, and if anything attacks I just power down my current offensive Space Docks and activate the old ones to pour out a stream of Younglings to defend myself.  Once the threat is gone, I swap back.  I support up my Space Docks with 2 Engineers each (I do run out of Engineers and need to start scrapping some to make room later), so I can put out about 2-4 Youngling per second, which proves strong enough to stop some insanely large forces.

Anyway, I quickly take Hagia to eliminate something Force Field immune coming through and picking off the Gravity Drill.  The AI has Inflitrators, and of course a Raid Starship or Plasma Siege are always a serious threat.  I also find and raid a Data Center with Raid Starships to take a little of the AIP edge off.  Then I take all the systems down to Ullanor, getting a Cursed Golem.

I gate raid around Artemis in preparation to use the Super Terminal and finally claim that system.  There is an Ion Eye on Hydraphur, so I spend some time clearing out the guard posts in that system.  I'm zerging with Youngling Weasels, and keeping all my other ships back for defense.  Again, all of these, including gate raiding, is done with just Younglings and my Cursed Golem.  I actually use my Raid Starships only once more this game.

Unlocks: Hardened Force Field II, Spider Turret

10:32 [186 AIP]
Doh, Belis Corona has a Special Forces Alarm Post, which is a warp gate.  Killing that, which of course sets it off, bumps my AIP to 192.  Lucky I noticed before a wave got declared.  Always, always check your galaxy map with W.  I remembered to check right as my Command Station finished and was able to rush my Youngling zerg in to deal with the problem.

Meanwhile, I start setting up to take down the Super Terminal.  I build up a four Fortresses and a full cap of Heavy Beam Cannons.  I only use one Force Field II on the theory that, if anything starts banging on that, I've already lost.  I max out my turret caps and the Trader is helpful enough to provide a Counter Spy.  The AI has Space Planes which are being annoying to my OCD need to see Attack 0 at the top of the screen.  I use the Stealthed Tachyon Beam Emitters to cover Cadia in case any Space Planes turn up there.

Unlocks: Fortress I, Tachyon Beam Emitter, Stealthed Tachyon Beam Emitter, Heavy Beam Cannons

11:15 [82 AIP]
I ride the Super Terminal down.  This is surprisingly easy, and I probably could have gotten lower, but I got nervous with 4k enemy ships a fair chunk of which were in Mark IV-V range.  What probably made this a touch easier was a lot of Autobombs spawned which got stopped by Gravity Turrets and wrecked by my short range turrets without any chance to causing any damage.   Anyway, I stopped before I really took any damage to my Fortresses or Force Fields.  I'm happy with -110 AIP on difficulty 8.  There are still 1158 Space Planes cloaked.  So I did what any lazy commander would do, I let the Counter Spy kill them, one at a time, every 4 seconds.  It took about 77 minutes, meanwhile I continue the game.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Rise of the Neinzul
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2012, 02:28:38 pm »
14:51 [65 AIP]
More scouting.  Raid three DCs with Younglings, putting me at floor AIP.  I've still only found 3 CPs so waiting on taking them out.  To this point I still only have Scout IIs unlocked.  Scouting is by far the slowest part of the process now.  Mainly because I'm being stubborn and not unlocking Scout IIIs.  I've been using Youngling packs to kill Tachyon Guardians.  I've gone six systems deep, incurring brief deep strike spawns, to do this.  Sadly, the AI has Sentinel Frigates, so if I don't scout right after clearing a path I often can't get my ships through.  The funny thing about using Youngling I & II packs is I often don't wake up full systems so the Tachyon raids are surprisingly low on threat generation.

Speaking of threat, I spread out my Fortresses from Artemis, putting one on Ullanor and Hagia to discourage threat from coming through.

18:30 [79 AIP]
I've finally found and raided the CPs using Raid Starships for the last time, and I'm at negative AIP, -20 AIP specifically.  AIP over time is slowly erasing that.  At this point, I've gained 37 AIP over time.

I've found the Dyson on Galt and leave a scout to tick it off, but beyond alerting the planets around it, it does nothing.  I grind down Olympia, using an EMP I warhead and my Cursed Golem.  Very tough nut to crack.  I should have used a Mark II EMP really, Mark I wasn't nearly long enough.  Although truth to tell, I could have done it in another 30-60ish minutes using constant raids.  But with AIP over time on, 60 minutes = EMP Mark I.

Hybrids in particular made Olympia's defense very strong.  At one point there were 22 there.  That much firepower forced me to stage my Younglings and only send them in at full cap.  This is pretty micro intensive, especially since I needed to manually target Flak Guardians and other AOE damage.  That just isn't possible when ships are streaming in.

Finally my scouts find one homeworld, so the second must be somewhere in bottom tail.

21:44 [88 AIP]
I break down and unlock Scout IIIs to speed things up and get the map is completely scouted.  I spend some time getting scouts into place on all the critical systems, including AI homeworlds.  I start planning which system I need to take to remove all the CSGs.  I mark my initial thoughts with P5.

Unlocks: Scout Drone III

22:21 [92 AIP]
I take two more systems to stepping stone into bottom tail, knocking out the CSG-D in the processes.  I also finalize my final captures, again marking them with P5.  This will net me a Hive Golem, Armored Golem, and another Cursed Golem.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Rise of the Neinzul
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2012, 02:42:13 pm »
24:43 [207 AIP]
I get the CSG network down and prepare to take the homeworlds, and fully gate raid around my satellite systems so waves still go to Cadia where I can ignore them.  I'd mention the ARS and Fabricator results, but I don't use anything I get except for the Youngling Vultures.

My plane is to knock out the bottom homeworld with Younglings I-III, a Cursed Golem and a fully loaded Hive Golem.  The I'd take the top homeworld with my other Cursed Golem, Armored Golem and Younglings I-IV thanks to the advanced factory.

Unlocks: Fortress II, Youngling Weasel III, Youngling Vulture III

25:10 [322 AIP]
One homeworld down, no difficulty.  Used two loads from my Hive Golem.  My Younglings zerg did the rest with minimal direction from me.  I send both golems up to help with other homeworld.  They get a lot of damage while travelling threw enemy systems and the Hive almost dies.  My cursed has to stop for repairs before it even reaches my homeworld and never gets any further.

25:17 [- AIP]
I begin my attack on the second homeworld, and I notice one small thing.  As my attack begins, my computer freezes for about 4 seconds.  I'm wondering if it has crashed.  Nope, that's a Neinzul Spawner Guard Post.  Then my computer pauses again.  And again.  Three Neinzul Spawner Guard Posts unload an insane 4k+ Cockroaches.  They beat me back out of the system to Verghast.

But this moment, more than any other, is when the younglings prove amazing.  I'm pumping out Mark I-III Weasels and Vultures from double Space Docks in Nimbosa, and Mark IV Weasels and Vultures from the Advanced Factory in Typhon Primaris.  They are coming into Verghast so fast all the Cockroaches stall trying to clear the system before moving on.  But they can't do it and eventually the self attrition enough that my younglings wipe them out.  Sadly the Cockroaches overrun and kill my Cursed Golem.  My Armored Golem escapes to Typhon Primaris and the Hive Golem arrives for when the Cockroaches are gone.

Once I being my attack again, I make certain to kill the Spawners quickly, since they've already built up another 300 Cockroaches each.  The Hive Golem's 500 Wasps seals the deal, and victory is mine!

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rise of the Neinzul
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2012, 02:52:48 pm »
Wow, looks like you beat that pretty handily ;)  Though probably "easier read than done".  So the whole thing was on 5.051 sometime earlier this month?

Glad to know the younglings are proving useful; they tend to be one of the most "some people love them, some people never touch them" groups of types.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Rise of the Neinzul
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2012, 03:22:40 pm »
Closing Thoughts
Version: I upgraded as patches came out and finished the game in version 5.060.

Hybrids
I really enjoyed having them on.  I probably wouldn't go above 4/10 because any more of them would have just been annoying.  I'm somewhat inclined to say they mature a little too quickly, and that I think I'd prefer the x/10 system increased maturity rate instead of number.  Or maybe increased both by a smaller amount.

What are the Construction spawners?  Since Hybrids can't make turrets anymore, do these even do anything?

Also, it took me awhile to find the actual Hybrid spawners because their name is Hive Spawner, and there are also Drone Spawners, so I was getting them confused as the same unit.  Maybe the Hybrid Hive Spawner could be renamed to Hybrid Hive Nest instead, a more distinct name.  I know, I'm always trying to get you to rename stuff :) .

Is there any chance that Hybrids can get their Mark # to reflect their maturity?  I could tell by zooming in and mousing over mounts or counting number of weapons they mount, but I'd love a quicker way to tell them apart at a glance.

There was a Super Hybrid on Galt, with the Dyson sphere.  It did nothing all game.  It never moved.  Basically it was pointless.  I'm not sure why it never felt the need to get involved.  Maybe it was trying to do the Advanced Hybrid plot, but I didn't have Advanced Hybrids turned on.

Eyes
Younglings are immune to reclamation, so Parasite eyes did nothing to me.  Ion eyes were a little annoying, but I only encountered one on Hydraphur and I didn't really even notice it I was replacing my ships so fast and there were so many enemy ships I was able to get most of the Guard Posts down before it activated.  Sentry Eyes would have been the worst case for me, but I never had to deal with any.  So I'm really happy withe the new Eyes because I think a lot of times there will be at least one of the Eye types that just doesn't bother you much, which effectively makes their spawn rate feel reduced.  So less frustration for players, will still having interesting and varied challenges.

Threat
AI threat is a little brain dead.  I was able to hold off tons of threat by just putting a Fortress on each entry into my core systems.  In fact, this is the only reason I unlocked Fortress IIs.  Not because I needed them to shoot at anything, but because they effectively paralyze a large amount of threat.  But even then, there was enough threat that if it all moved to Ullanor it could have broken through easily.  Basically, the AI really should re-evaluate its threat ship placement occationally.  Maybe if it has multiple "large" pockets of threat, it should randomly determine which threat blob is next to the weakest human system and send all the other large threat pockets there.  Because threat was such a non-issue, you'll notice I never mentioned CPAs because they didn't do anything.  Sure, they were pretty small because I got my AIP pretty low, but they didn't even attack my really weakly defended stepping stone systems over by Chaeronia.  It was just too spread out and never combined to break through anywhere.

Neinzul Rocketry/Preservation/Enclaves
I still don't know the difference between the Wardens and Enclaves.  I think I saw a lot of Enclaves (look like the Neinzul starship and spawn younglings of various sorts).  But I don't think I saw a single Preservation Warden, so I can't really comment on them.  The Rocketry Corps were interesting, and I claimed two systems with Rocketry Corps in them (Caeronia and Typhon Primaris).  I had about 3 EMP warheads explode, but I was able to keep the system alive fairly easily.  Mainly with a golem to defend them until their defenses came back.  The Lightning Warheads generally got killed by turrets before they could get anywhere special and so did no damage.  All-in-all, interesting, but probably not something I'd play with in every game.

Difficulty
This game wasn't very difficult, just long.  I had a ton of fun, but I'm kind of scared to try a new game without younglings.  They made me pretty lazy about capturing systems.  There is no question I will use Gravity Drills as choke points whenever possible.  They are insanely strong, and I'd even use a satellite choke point because of them.

Combat Stats
Code: [Select]
Ship Type           Built   Kills    Lost
Fighters            1,534     510   1,414
Bombers             2,407     661   1,911
Missile Frigates    1,034   2,116     922
Weasels           132,524  17,451  21,507
Golems                     14,871
I'm not sure what's up with the Lost number on Weasels.  My scrapped ship total for the game was only 11,000 and I generally didn't let them self-attrition preferring to scrap them as soon as I didn't need them somewhere.

Attached Image: Cloaked
The ridiculous cloaking threat left by the Super Terminal.  For some reason these never attacked with the rest of the Super Terminal force.  This may also have been another factor in why I had such an easy time.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Rise of the Neinzul
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2012, 03:34:52 pm »
One last thought: I got Translocators from a Fabricator.  They are POINTLESS.  Holy cow.  I built a cap just to defend that system and left them on FRD.  78 of them lost to something like 8 Mark IV Fighters.  It was so sad I actually sat and watched the battle and cried.  They will be my nomination for Worst Ship next poll.

With the combination of teleportation and translocation, they should never move while their attack is reloading.  Otherwise they fire, teleport the enemy, and then immediately teleport next to the enemy to get shot up while they wait for their attack to be ready again.  That change alone would probably really help them out.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Rise of the Neinzul
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2012, 04:09:08 pm »
I would agree with making freed AI ships that have been waiting at a wormhole > N time "reroll" their target planet (which may choose the same planet again, which is fine. That would allow some buildup of threat, but overall spread out threat better). Also, that >N time should checked on a global timer, not a per ship timer, as otherwise individual ships would start bleeding off and then often times wind up doing nothing. If instead, the AI "batched" their checks (maybe check for ships waiting for >N time every N time interval?), you would typically see them group much better. This would fall apart some if you have lots of border planets though...

I thought I posted idea on mantis a long time ago, but it doesn't look like I did.

Since I missed out on the "opportunity", would you like to mantis is?

Offline Minotaar

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Re: Rise of the Neinzul
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2012, 04:14:21 pm »
A youngling game without Enclave Starships makes me sad  ;D

The difference between the Wardens and the Enclaves is that the Wardens don't actually do anything, even after all the buffs and fixes  :)

I do like the idea of threatballs being less sticky. But this is the actual first time I've seen anyone unlock Fortresses specifically to build threatballs.  :) I do everything I can to keep their number down.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rise of the Neinzul
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2012, 04:17:57 pm »
You probably just don't see the wardens, they tend to do a drive-by and drop off their squadrons (which look a lot like roaming enclave squadrons) from a neighboring AI planet and head back to the AI homeworld, rinse repeat.  The Roamers tend to get in your face personally.
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Offline Minotaar

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Re: Rise of the Neinzul
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2012, 04:35:54 pm »
You probably just don't see the wardens, they tend to do a drive-by and drop off their squadrons (which look a lot like roaming enclave squadrons) from a neighboring AI planet and head back to the AI homeworld, rinse repeat.  The Roamers tend to get in your face personally.

I do see them, it's just that their squads of five units every hour don't even tickle anything.  :)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rise of the Neinzul
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2012, 04:38:04 pm »
I do see them, it's just that their squads of five units every hour don't even tickle anything.  :)
Five units?  Should be a hundred or so at least in each one, depending on caps.

And as the game goes on, unless you kill them, there'll be more and more of them doing the "rounds".
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Rise of the Neinzul
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2012, 04:46:46 pm »
I do see them, it's just that their squads of five units every hour don't even tickle anything.  :)
Five units?  Should be a hundred or so at least in each one, depending on caps.

And as the game goes on, unless you kill them, there'll be more and more of them doing the "rounds".

For me, its typically more like 30-40 units per "drop" per warden, which they rarely swarm me more than 3 at a time.
While 100 or so younglings may be more than just a few turrets can handle, they don't really pose much of a threat to even moderately defended worlds.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Rise of the Neinzul
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2012, 05:16:10 pm »
And as the game goes on, unless you kill them, there'll be more and more of them doing the "rounds".
In 25 hours, I never noticed them.  How much longer do you want our games to go? :)

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Rise of the Neinzul
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2012, 10:34:42 pm »
All these AARs. Normally all you hear on this particular subforum is the sound of crickets.

Quote
Super Terminal and a Grav Driller next to my homeworld
They love to be right there... tempting you to hack before you're ready.

Quote
Hilariously, Human Resistance Fighters are immune to gravity
Yeah, a full rebel fleet can almost take a grav driller homeworld by itself.

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While Cadia is getting setup, my first Exo hits.  It contains an Artillery Goelm
Yeah, those are made of pain.

Quote
Cursed Golem
More of curse for the enemy.

Quote
ride the Super Terminal down.
Nice hack.

Quote
So I did what any lazy commander would do, I let the Counter Spy kill them, one at a time, every 4 seconds.
Space plane pilot: The Counterspy has to run out of ammo eventually.

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warhead
Yay.

Quote
My plane is to knock out the bottom homeworld with Younglings I-III, a Cursed Golem and a fully loaded Hive Golem.  The I'd take the top homeworld with my other Cursed Golem, Armored Golem and Younglings I-IV thanks to the advanced factory.
A simultaneous homeworld assualt. Wow, I have never pulled one of those off.

Quote
fully loaded Hive Golem
These are like free nukes that can be used on mkV stuff.

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Three Neinzul Spawner Guard Posts unload an insane 4k+ Cockroaches.
Insane? You should see...um... alright. Yes. That is insane.

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and victory is mine!
Congragulations.

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Maybe the Hybrid Hive Spawner could be renamed to Hybrid Hive Nest instead, a more distinct name. ... Is there any chance that Hybrids can get their Mark # to reflect their maturity?
I would like these too. Along with the Hive Spawner rename, could it get a distinct appearance from the other Hybrid stuff?

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AI threat is a little brain dead.
I think the way threat behaves now is mostly great. It waits until it really mess up your day in a massive failure cascade, not just take one world. Though I agree that when the last AI Homeworld is under attack, I think they should all rush in, because they won't get another chance.

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Gravity Drills as choke points.
Yes, these are crazy good. And you didn't even have SC attritioners.

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I got Translocators from a Fabricator.  They are POINTLESS.
Stick 78 of these under a ff, and you buy yourself a lot of time. Combined with their teleporting ability, I think these are excellent crisis managers. In short, these aren't combat ships, though I agree that teleporting right next to their victim is not a good tactic.

Quote
the Wardens don't actually do anything
I never see more than a couple of these guys either, and they never really did anything to me. I had the map set to complete visibility, so I know they weren't just hiding somewhere.
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Rise of the Neinzul
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2012, 12:02:55 am »
I would agree with making freed AI ships that have been waiting at a wormhole > N time "reroll" their target planet (which may choose the same planet again, which is fine. That would allow some buildup of threat, but overall spread out threat better). Also, that >N time should checked on a global timer, not a per ship timer, as otherwise individual ships would start bleeding off and then often times wind up doing nothing. If instead, the AI "batched" their checks (maybe check for ships waiting for >N time every N time interval?), you would typically see them group much better. This would fall apart some if you have lots of border planets though...

I thought I posted idea on mantis a long time ago, but it doesn't look like I did.

Since I missed out on the "opportunity", would you like to mantis is?

Well, since you never mantised it, I went ahead and did so. I made sure to also credit you though. :)

9396: After waiting a long time on a wormhole, threat should "reroll" which planet to stalk