Neinzul Ally the Fallen Spire

[Cyborg]

Cyborg and Minotaar decide to play a game along the same lines as the community challenge. Each player will play about two hours of gametime and e-mail it to the other. After action reports go here.

Map type:
lattice
100 planets
seed 230355810
0/60 increment

Ships:
Yng nanoswarm
complex
core shields off, everything else on

Game options

Minor factions:

Human rebellion
human resistance
Wardens (what's the point…)
enclaves
Dyson sphere
Zenith trader
Fallen spire
spire moderate
golem moderate

AI modifiers:
reveal AI types

AI 1:
Vicious Raider
8.3 random moderate


AI 2
Attritioner
8.3 random harder
normal hybrids
avenger


Report:

Researched so far (1:50):
Crystal and metal harvesters Mark III
advanced warp sensor
fighters Mark 2
Fortress Mark 1


The game starts off fairly calmly, with the first wave being only 100 armored ships. My first order of business is to get the economy going, as you are woefully poor in this game at the beginning. I get the harvesters up (Mark 3) and set about constructing defenses on my own planet. Scouting around, I noticed some easy targets next to the base, and a Mark 3 planet that has a couple ion cannons, asteroids, and a Zenith power generator. This looks like a great spot to target my playtime, as I like fortresses a lot but they do cost a great deal of energy. Especially if you are playing a hybrid hive game, they're really indispensable. Throwing up some turrets, I finish my fortress just-in-time for the first real test of the home planet.

Well that wasn't anything to be scared of.

Next in line, I notice that Raeiuschr touches a couple Mark 3 planets and a couple Mark 4's. Looks like a great spot for a fortress and a devious plan. I also need to take Pirapude for the economy's sake. I still can't keep above zero for any period of time. The battle on Raeiuschr goes relatively smoothly, with only a few hybrids to worry about.



I notice that the nanoswarm reclamation is abysmal. Absolutely abysmal. The only thing it does well is paralyze and do engine damage. We really need a counter in this game for reclamation performed. Other units' reclamation has been pretty decent, but looking at the behavior for this unit, it seems like it's taking the engine/status of the enemy into account for the targeting. The nanoswarm looks like a teenager learning how to drive, pressing on the gas and the brake at the same time every time it suicides into the enemy.

I'm already regretting this unit choice… watch me put 0 knowledge into this piece of space junk.



Next up on the list is to take care of Pirapude. It's an easy target with a decent mineral setup. I lay down some turrets, but I'm not planning on putting a fortress here right now. It doesn't have too much strategic value besides as a buffer from my home planet. Maybe over time, but right now I have more pressing things to do.

I'm looking at Shokil as the trophy for round one. The Zenith power generator is a great target as well as the ion cannons. The resource values alone for the cannons could be absolutely essential for taking down the avenger (should it become necessary). I don't have great chokepoints on this map, so I'm going to need the ability to replenish my army very quickly.

The plan is to use nanoswarms as a suicide distraction on Shokil. I can't get my scouts in their because of all the firepower and defense on that planet. It has warp guardians, gravity guardians, lightning guardians, hybrids, ion cannons, and a whole bunch of ships, higher mark than I. Fun. After I get my fortress up, I place all my turrets around the Shokil wormhole. I then start suiciding all of my nanoswarms onto Shokil.



This gives me just enough vision. Sending my scouts through is still ineffective, so I bring my heavily armored Raid Starships to soak up some damage while I sneak in a few scouts.

Success.

Then I bring my main fleet over to Raeiuschr (leaving some behind on Pirapude- there are eyebots cloaking here waiting to hit the command station if you leave it undefended). The eyebots' refractive armor needs laser counters. I start sending in my fleet and then dragging it back out, trying to draw in the AI to its doom. It's effective at pulling some of them.



The other side of the wormhole seems to be thinning out, so I sent in the main fleet and make a beeline for the command station.

Boom!

Victory is mine, as the planet soon falls to my fleet. I start setting up double force fields on the command station, a fortress, and forcefield protection for the strategic targets (Zenith power generator, ion cannons). I also lay down some mines around the Zenith power generator. They end up being quite ineffective (you will need to move these around Minotaar).

The AI launches a counterstrike against my new planet- including a carrier, oddly, with 420 unit counter underneath it.



Seems a little early for this. It contains a bunch of Raiders, unsurprisingly. Eyebots and Raiders can be annoying, probably will go for this AI first if possible.

The human resistance fighters decide to show up after the battle is over. Mighty nice of them.



And with that, I leave it to the next commander to choose what you want to research next. A couple notes on needs that need to be filled:

* Running out of tractor turrets. I'm aware that some people like gravity instead. Whatever you feel like.
* Running out of force fields.
* You will need some more defenses on Shokil. You cannot keep your main fleet there forever. Because you are fighting the raider AI, you will need refractive counters. Feel free to reposition the existing defensive infrastructure or use the asteroids for a second fleet.
* I have not started the quest line yet.
* So far, nanoswarms are good for a distraction and to cause weapon armaments to fire before you bring in your fleet. Besides that, looking forward to seeing what you can do with them. I have placed read regen chambers around.

The map:

[PokerChen]

I notice that the nanoswarm reclamation is abysmal. Absolutely abysmal. The only thing it does well is paralyze and do engine damage. We really need a counter in this game for reclamation performed. Other units' reclamation has been pretty decent, but looking at the behavior for this unit, it seems like it's taking the engine/status of the enemy into account for the targeting. The nanoswarm looks like a teenager learning how to drive, pressing on the gas and the brake at the same time every time it suicides into the enemy.

First negative feedback on Nanoswarms? Just remember that reclamation damage scales exponentially with relative mark-levels (in general), while stun and engine damage are linear. If you want a full cap from one wave you want to pit mark-IIs against mark-Is, etc.

[Minotaar]

Not sure if I will be able to hand the next save to you today, but just want to reply to some of your points in no particular order:
1) what kind of devious plan involves alerting two mk4s? I want to know 
2) you have yet to see the power of the nanoswarm! 
3) Ion cannons don't give much scrap at all, you can't count on them to be distrib nodes, probably not worth capturing in most cases, unless we use it for defense
4) Vicious Raider? Teleport raiders again? Grrrr.

[Cyborg]

Not sure if I will be able to hand the next save to you today, but just want to reply to some of your points in no particular order:
1) what kind of devious plan involves alerting two mk4s? I want to know 
2) you have yet to see the power of the nanoswarm! 
3) Ion cannons don't give much scrap at all, you can't count on them to be distrib nodes, probably not worth capturing in most cases, unless we use it for defense
4) Vicious Raider? Teleport raiders again? Grrrr.

You're going to need that power generator for the fortresses and the defensive infrastructure. As soon as you lose one base, you lose double power generators. Also, on this level, there are going to be higher mark planets almost everywhere. One fortress is equal to (just estimating) 75% of a planet's basic power production.

Yes, looking forward to seeing the nanoswarm do something. If it's true that the first level is meaningless, that's still pretty bad. The teleporting leech was a lot more effective, as well as the first leech starship.

The ion 3 should be worth it. 10% of that. I agree that the level I is probably meaningless. Worse case, it protects the power generator.

[keith.lamothe]

The nanoswarm Is aren't very good at reclaiming, no, but the ability (via looping docks nearby) to "debuff" an entire planet's worth of AI ships with engine damage, (temporary) paralysis, and armor damage for a very small amount of m+c is actually really helpful.  And FRD-looping unending production of them into an AI planet drastically reduces the effectiveness of the enemy forces (the aforementioned debuffs, and overloading targeting queues and splitting up response forces), making it a lot easier to attack with conventional forces.

[Cyborg]

The nanoswarm Is aren't very good at reclaiming, no, but the ability (via looping docks nearby) to "debuff" an entire planet's worth of AI ships with engine damage, (temporary) paralysis, and armor damage for a very small amount of m+c is actually really helpful.  And FRD-looping unending production of them into an AI planet drastically reduces the effectiveness of the enemy forces (the aforementioned debuffs, and overloading targeting queues and splitting up response forces), making it a lot easier to attack with conventional forces.

Yes, and I certainly did that tactic as shown above. It was okay I guess. I used them just like I would autobombs.

[Minotaar]

The ion 3 should be worth it. 10% of that. I agree that the level I is probably meaningless. Worse case, it protects the power generator.

Ions don't give back 10%, it's way less than that, not sure how much exactly.

[zoutzakje]

The ion 3 should be worth it. 10% of that. I agree that the level I is probably meaningless. Worse case, it protects the power generator.

Ions don't give back 10%, it's way less than that, not sure how much exactly.

I believe I read somewhere that Ion Cannons only give 1% back, due to their incredibly high resource costs.

[Cyborg]

I'm not seeing it on the wiki. It's surprising, because this is a tactic I've done before.

Edit: http://www.arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Ion_Cannons

This is where I'm getting it. It may have been changed since then.

"Do note that Mark III and higher Ion Cannons have an AI Wave Multiplier that can be quite nasty. These structures in particularly are viewed by many players as high value scrap (even 10% of 5,400,000 resources will nearly cap you out). "

[Coppermantis]

Yes, Ions give less returns, at least according to the scrap dialogue.

[Wanderer]

Ions are almost never worth the scrap compared to the capture cost.  Only take them when you've got multiple Ions in a single system for a whipping boy, otherwise blow them ASAP.

[PokerChen]

I'm not seeing it on the wiki. It's surprising, because this is a tactic I've done before.

Edit: http://www.arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Ion_Cannons

This is where I'm getting it. It may have been changed since then.

"Do note that Mark III and higher Ion Cannons have an AI Wave Multiplier that can be quite nasty. These structures in particularly are viewed by many players as high value scrap (even 10% of 5,400,000 resources will nearly cap you out). "

Edited the wiki to reflect ancient patch changes before 5.000 release:
"Ion Cannons, Mass Drivers, and Counter Spies now scrap for 0.1% of their cost rather than 10%, to bring the usefulness of melting captured ones down closer to the usefulness of keeping them.
We won't point any fingers on this one."

= = =
Here's a question on that wiki page to those who have been here a long time: the player-owned structure-based AI wave multiplier seem to have disappeared a long time ago as well - I'll cite two change logs:

4.000 complete release notes:
"Previously, there were only mark I and II ion cannons. Now, mark III, IV, and V ion cannons have also been added. These new ion cannons can be purchased by humans from the trader for an exorbitant fee, and can be captured from the AI but apply significant wave multipliers against that planet."

5.000 complete release notes:
"The previous concept of AI Wave Bonuses (the crazy multipliers that could lead to waves of 700,000 ships, for example) have been removed entirely. This buffs a number of structures for human use, including captive human settlements, zenith power generators, gravity drill stations, zenith spacetime manipulators, and ion cannons."

If the more recent note is correct, we'll need to removeall mention of increased AI waves where-ever they appear in the wiki. Arethey coming back anytime soon?

[Diazo]

I have not heard anything about them coming back.

I also have not gone through any of the old pages on the wiki to update things like this yet, need to do that one of these days.

D.

[Hearteater]

Whoops, posted this in the wrong thread at first.  Anyway, Ion Cannon Scrap values:

Mark	Value	Scrapped
I	800,000	800
II	3,600,000	3,600
III	14,400,000	14,000
IV	43,200,000	43,200
V	129,600,000	129,600

As you can see, never worth it.

[Minotaar]

As I look over my assigned planets, the first thing I notice is the ZPG. Literally ON a hostile wormhole. Covered by a single forcefield. Man, you've got the balls..  There are also no forcefields on the home command station. What happened here? Unlockng armored FFs and immediately stacking five on the ZPG. A wave of Eyebots would murder it anyway, so I decide I have to clean off the warpgates leading to this planet ASAP. I also notice the lack of scout pickets, unlocking mk2 scouts and getting to work. Building Cloaker, Enclave and Riot starships. Some decloakers I sent around found most of the hidden Eyebots. Scouts get into Dempe and find 40 Hybrid Hives in there throwing a party with over a hundred Leeches.

300 frigates declared to the ZPG wormhole, holding it easily with the fleet. 233 cloaked to HW, assume eyebots. Unlock tachyon and grav turrets, wave defeated. Also, found the home FF, it decided to rally to the rally post. 

Finally starting the attack on Tetherges, initiating with nanoswarms, killing the tachyon guardian with everything, then sending in the 2 enclave + 2 cloaker fun squad building nanoswarms on FRD. With enemies moved away from the command station, I swoop in with the raids and blow up the warpgate, while also trying to snag some straggling ships with riot tractors. Sending in the fleet again to do some real damage, hybrids and guardians rush ahead of the engine-dead fleetships, allowing me to clean them up separately. A 226 bomber wave is announced to the HW, not a big deal.
Pause and look over the galaxy map. We're doing FS, so I won't take the just neutered mk4... wait.. FS.. mk4s.. aha, I see through your devious plan now! It would be even better if we didn't take Raeiuschr this early, but oh well. Alright, then I'll be busy claiming our corner of the map. I confiscate 2 Pysite from Tetherges for Martyrs before leaving it. 573 armor ships for HW, moving fleet there, but when the wave arrives 25 Hybrids + 400 drones attack Raeischur. I manage to blow up all the hybrids at once with a Martyr, not even losing the command station, good thing I built those.  Another group of resistance fighters was late to the party, but wecome nonetheless.

Easily taking the mk1 planets next to the HW, next target is the mk4 with the ARS. I modify my tactics a little: I have 2 enclaves with a cloaker circling around the system leaving a trail of mushrooms, and another cloaker with a Martyr stealing stuff and bringing it to my fleet, which now has Merc Parasites.



I'm reclaiming mk4s and feeling all good about myself, then 1200 frigates announce to Raeiuschr. Oops. 1100 Fighters for the last planet I captured, which doesn't even have any defenses. Double oops. I speedbuild some Martyrs and get ready, but the game hangs up displaying purple artifacts all over the screen, so I thought my videocard sacrificed itself to save humanity. Everything was fine with it, though, and after reloading the waves were 800 bombers and 1100 frigs, much better since I had 150 Merc Fighters just lying around. Dealt with the waves easily enough, didn't have to resort to Martyrs. In the meantime the enclaves continued circling around dragging the defenders after them, so the mk4 threat didn't join in the fun. I smash the diluted forces with my whole fleet



and send in a lab to check out the ARS selection: Armor Boosters, Gravity Drains and Viral Shredders. I can't resist the temptation and decide to hack for Shredders, because I have a stupid idea that I want to try out.  A super hybrid appeared somewhere, but as it doesn' do anything on normal there's not much to worry about. Cleaning up Owlsharp, the last planet in our corner. 900 fighters to Piramude defended with the fleet. Neutering Owlsharp and starting to reposition our defenses to Raeischur, which is now the single chokepoint. Constructing a hacker and a survey ship as well. 1200 frigates to Raeiuschr while I was busy hacking, split up the fleet and speedbuild another fort, no hybrids show up to help. Signal is traced to Erpirajo, which has an ARS. Sweet.

So, the stupid idea I was referring to was to make a shredder farm out of the ship-design hacker. I get half a cap of shredders onto Owlsharp's command station, drop some snipers and missile turrets around, and move the hacker in, letting the shredders go to work on the zombies. It is working, rather slowly, but working! I rename the planet to Farmville, I know Cyborg loves that game (had to be done) 1.5k fighters to Raeiuschr, but I have 3 forts up already, so no worries. 825 bombers to... WTF, did I miss a warpgate guardian? Turns out, I did, and they'll be landing right on top of my ZPG. I scramble to build a bunch of forcefields to survive the first volley, so that I can then do this


And time's out.



Things of note:

1) Dempe is still partying, with close to 60 Hybrids already, watch out. I have an idea on how to deal with them. It unsurprisingly involves Martyrs. And surprisingly many forcefields. 
2) You can keep the farm (just check on it regularly and move the excess shredders out, keeping about 150 in total of both marks, so that they multiply faster) or just take it for the resources and K, your call.
3) The WG guardian on Tetherges needs to die quickly. Shouldn't be difficult.
4) Lots of knowledge in the bank, not sure what to use it for yet. Also delegating that to you.

Oh, yes, over 21k nanowarms built so far. Accepting bets on the endgame value