Author Topic: MAR: "Middle of Action Report" from a newb  (Read 7088 times)

Offline Harry

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MAR: "Middle of Action Report" from a newb
« on: January 03, 2010, 12:45:18 am »
I'm playing my first "real" campaign, having won the tutorial campaign yesterday.  I'm having a blast!  I'm playing with one AI set to 6 (Random Easy) and the other to 5 (also Random/Easy).  Er, does this make my difficulty level 6.5, or what?  I've noticed that people often state their difficulty level as a fraction, not a whole number; how do you calculate it?

Anyway, I've got tons of resources, but I'm progressing VERY slowly, as I am by my nature somewhat pokey and cautious.  After sending multiple Scout IIs to their death, I've finally got one through to one of the AI homeworlds, in the far upper-left-hand corner of the map.  How the heck will I ever get there without sending the AI's Progress through the roof?  I've more or less decided to take the southern, then western, route, as it has relatively little exposure on the flank.  But my starting world (Zitioas) doesn't feel all that secure; it has one friendly world as a "buffer" on either side.  I haven't done any warp-gate raiding at all, because the biggest threat seems to be cross-planet attacks, not warp raids -- but perhaps that will change?  There are gates almost everywhere around me.  The only system without a gate in my starting area is Vinaelub.

Also, I just captured my first Advanced Research, at Ickheae, and started learning from it.  I gather it unlocks one or more ship types.  I'm not certain I saw any message informing me of that, but I do think I have two ship types I didn't have before -- the Raptor and the MLRS.  Is that the sort of thing that would unlock via Adv Research?  Also, is it normal to get two unlocks?  I was picturing some shiny level IV ship!  But I'll take it.

I'm almost tempted to say that this level is too easy for me, as I've consistently had almost 600K resources all along.  But my suspicion is that my cautious ways will be my undoing -- by the time I get to the target area, the AI will be pounding me to smithereens.  Any general advice on how to proceed from here?  Here's the screenshot.  (Oh, and how do you take a screenie -- just PrtScreen to copy to clipboard, then open in Photoshop, as I did?  Also, sorry I don't have a thumbnail; not sure how to make one.)

Edit: made the screenshot smaller to fit the page better.

« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 01:28:54 am by Harry »

Offline RCIX

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Re: MAR: "Middle of Action Report" from a newb
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2010, 02:43:15 am »
I'm playing my first "real" campaign, having won the tutorial campaign yesterday.  I'm having a blast!  I'm playing with one AI set to 6 (Random Easy) and the other to 5 (also Random/Easy).  Er, does this make my difficulty level 6.5, or what?  I've noticed that people often state their difficulty level as a fraction, not a whole number; how do you calculate it?
If you get above 7 there are actually things like 7.3, 7.6, 8.3, etc.



Anyway, I've got tons of resources, but I'm progressing VERY slowly, as I am by my nature somewhat pokey and cautious.  After sending multiple Scout IIs to their death, I've finally got one through to one of the AI homeworlds, in the far upper-left-hand corner of the map.  How the heck will I ever get there without sending the AI's Progress through the roof? 

The basic idea is that you only take planets every 2 or 3 hops, to maximize the reach of your supply and minimize AI progress. There are those that like to "grind" their way through a galaxy, but generally those aren't newbies :)

Also, I just captured my first Advanced Research, at Ickheae, and started learning from it.  I gather it unlocks one or more ship types.  I'm not certain I saw any message informing me of that, but I do think I have two ship types I didn't have before -- the Raptor and the MLRS.  Is that the sort of thing that would unlock via Adv Research?  Also, is it normal to get two unlocks?

You get one special ship to start with and one other special type per ARS (advanced research station). In order to get IV ships, you need to both find an Advanced Factory and research the MkIII versions of whatever ships you want.

I'm almost tempted to say that this level is too easy for me, as I've consistently had almost 600K resources all along.  But my suspicion is that my cautious ways will be my undoing -- by the time I get to the target area, the AI will be pounding me to smithereens.  Any general advice on how to proceed from here?  Here's the screenshot.  (Oh, and how do you take a screenie -- just PrtScreen to copy to clipboard, then open in Photoshop, as I did?  Also, sorry I don't have a thumbnail; not sure how to make one.)

Just basically avoid capturing every world (especially uninteresting ones), though if you want a challenge you could grind your way to the homeworld -- it will most definitely make the AI harder!

Yup that's how you make screenshots.
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Offline x4000

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Re: MAR: "Middle of Action Report" from a newb
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2010, 03:10:33 pm »
Looking good!  A few comments, from my own experience at least (I'm the developer, but opinions vary):

Generally speaking, unless things are going poorly, I tend to take around 1 planet every 45-60 minutes or so.  From that standpoint, you're really doing a ton of consolidation and the main reason that you're sitting at so high of resources is that you aren't actually building enough ships.  Even if you're building tons of turrets and such to defend your own lands, you should still be cranking out tons of mobile ships and sending those against the AI planets to capture yet more territory.  Of course this then requires more defenses and more gate raids, and so that then requires yet more resource output and thus more resource input. 

Having larger active fleets also requires more energy, which then requires more resources, which requires taking more planets, which requires more fleet ships... it's a vicious cycle.  Only reason you should ever have 600k of your resources is if you're already at your ship caps.  And if you're at your ship caps and not being viciously attacked, you ought to be moving out into the galaxy to make use of the fact that "you have the tempo" (to use the Chess term) and can press your advantage.  Depending on how your assaults go, you may lose the tempo and have to regroup or rebuild, or you might go snowballing forward.  If you're always able to snowball forward and still have tons of resources, then the difficulty is definitely too easy.

Generally speaking, eventually you'll hit some roadblock planets that you can't get past easily, and then you have to think outside the box and do multiple strategic hits against it, or unlock some special ship, or whatever.  Knowledge is a key growth limiter, too, since unlocking more ships increases your ship caps, too.  That then lets you spend more metal/crystal, incidentally, and makes it more expensive to rebuild your "entire fleet" if you lose it all, since that then comprises more ships as you go.

Assuming that everything is pitch-perfect and you are comfortable and the AI is right at the level where it is just your difficulty, that's what you will generally see, anyway.  If it is too easy, you'll snowball the AI and always have lots of excess resources.  If it is too difficult, you'll always be resource poor and will have trouble taking many planets.  The game tends to self-balance to a certain extent, though, since if you go snowballing you might overextend yourself and wind up with an AI progress that is high enough that the AI can do some surprising things against you (sometimes resulting in your loss when you think the current scenario is a piece of cake, which is interesting).

In the case of my current 4player game, the AI is really giving us the runaround, on the other end of things -- we're playing against two 7s, our usual, but the current map has been really tough.  We've lost 3 of our 4 home planets, and routinely lose 6-7 of our 10 planets in the AI waves.  But, we're gradually clawing out way outward and taking new territory and getting on a bit of more solid ground.  As long as we don't lose that last home planet, we have a pretty decent shot of making a surprise come-from-behind victory, I'd say.  But you just never know.  Those surprise wins can happen for the players or the AI, so it's always good to be vigilant in any game.

If you're sitting that pretty in your current situation, though, I'd say it is time to get out and kick some butt and get some more planets.  Before long, you'll have more territory but will also be in a more difficult spot to maintain.  Depending on how defensive you are, when you start feeling more put-upon you can stop expanding and refortify.  I'm a defensive player, too, but just bear in mind that the main thing you need to protect is your home planet: so the more controlled-by-you planets you can put around it, the safer that home planet is.  Sometimes the best defense is indeed a good offense in terms of taking more buffer planets to put yourself at ease.

Of course, that's just my own playstyle, and part of why I play difficulty 7 instead of something higher.  Other players that are by nature more aggressive and are comfortable living on the edge more in terms of having less buffer and fewer planets, tend to play on diff 8 or more and use wildly different tactics.  But as someone more defensive in nature, you might prefer doing it more like I tend to (or some variant that is unique to you, anyway).  I tend to take around 20-30 planets out of an 80-planet map, and I tend to take around 1 planet every 45-60 minutes, as previously noted.  That tends to lead to a balance of offense and defense that I'm usually pretty comfortable with, and I win about 80%-90% of the time at diff 7, although there are very close calls quite often, and in multiplayer we almost never keep all of our home planets unscathed (if we keep half of them, we're doing good).

Anyway, you'll find your own preferred way of playing simply by doing what feels natural to you, but if you have a ton of excess resources you know what to do: spend them!  If you can't spend them because you're at ship cap, then attack so that your ship cap goes down.  With that many resources, you can afford some engineers and docks to replenish those destroyed ships very quickly, so it won't even create a gap in your defenses, which lets you keep feeling safe: as you lose ships abroad, replacements just get rebuilt at your own planets and can either defend or go and join the front.

Glad you're enjoying the game!
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Offline Harry

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Re: MAR: "Middle of Action Report" from a newb
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2010, 08:13:27 pm »
Thanks for the helpful replies!  I'm quite eager to spend more of those resources, and I've slowly been expanding my little empire to accumulate more knowledge.  I'm still running near 600K in resources, and so far I haven't really had any tough AI fights.  Mostly I'm just worried that I'm inexorably driving up the AI Progress meter and I still have 12 hops to get to the first enemy AI homeworld.  The Progress Meter stands at 140 now, which I know isn't very high, but every time I twitch the thing starts to rise!  About which: is there a list of precisely which events increase the Progress Meter?  I couldn't find a comprehensive list in the manual.  It seems I sometimes get a "1" increase just by attacking a new system.

Everyone talks about taking just one out of every two or three planets, so I'm trying to do that.  But that means I never have an unbroken chain of "safe" planets.  My pattern seems to be x - o - x - o - x - o, an alternating daisy-chain of friendly/unfriendly stretching toward the ultimate target.  Given that my nearest target is still 12 hops away, I need to keep doing this to avoid driving up the Progress Meter too high, right?

In any case, I'm having ridiculous amounts of fun with this game.  Thanks for making it, X!

Offline x4000

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Re: MAR: "Middle of Action Report" from a newb
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2010, 09:05:23 pm »
About which: is there a list of precisely which events increase the Progress Meter?  I couldn't find a comprehensive list in the manual.  It seems I sometimes get a "1" increase just by attacking a new system.

Very good question!  I have added a page about this to the wiki, which should answer all of your questions.

Everyone talks about taking just one out of every two or three planets, so I'm trying to do that.  But that means I never have an unbroken chain of "safe" planets.  My pattern seems to be x - o - x - o - x - o, an alternating daisy-chain of friendly/unfriendly stretching toward the ultimate target.  Given that my nearest target is still 12 hops away, I need to keep doing this to avoid driving up the Progress Meter too high, right?

Well... you'll get different answers from different people.  I tend to hop planets only when I am near the AI home planets, or when I need to capture something way off the beaten track.  In other words, I tend to try to make a big blob of my own planets spiraling out from my home planet, with other one-off planets that I cherrypick as needed.  And my big blob tends to spread most towards the AI home planets, so that my hops to them are as short as possible.

Some players try to keep their AI Progress to almost nothing.  This lets them play on high difficulties, and lets them really tune the balance of the game in their favor as much as possible -- but to me, it sucks a lot of the fun out of it.  For them, I think that's a part of the fun of it, though, trying to keep things so incredibly low.

Then again, on the other end of things, there are some players who literally take every planet, but do so in an incredibly difficult balancing act that takes 40-60+ hours on a goodsized map, and which results in AI Progresses of 1000 or 1400 or more.  Perhaps those players are playing on a difficulty a bit low for themselves, or perhaps they are just super good at turtle-ing and inexorably growing.

Really, you can make of it what you want -- if you like the long, slow, incredibly deadly game then you can try taking everything.  If you want shorter, longer-range-raiding games, try to take almost nothing.  I tend to be more in the middle, where I most liken it to how you might "trade material" in Chess, occasionally trading up (knight takes rook) and thus gaining an advantage (or accidentally trading down -- their bishop takes your queen -- as the case may be).

In any case, I'm having ridiculous amounts of fun with this game.  Thanks for making it, X!

Glad to hear it!  Thanks for your support! :)
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Offline Pandemic

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Re: MAR: "Middle of Action Report" from a newb
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2010, 09:21:47 pm »
Thanks for the helpful replies!  I'm quite eager to spend more of those resources, and I've slowly been expanding my little empire to accumulate more knowledge.  I'm still running near 600K in resources, and so far I haven't really had any tough AI fights.  Mostly I'm just worried that I'm inexorably driving up the AI Progress meter and I still have 12 hops to get to the first enemy AI homeworld.  The Progress Meter stands at 140 now, which I know isn't very high, but every time I twitch the thing starts to rise!  About which: is there a list of precisely which events increase the Progress Meter?  I couldn't find a comprehensive list in the manual.  It seems I sometimes get a "1" increase just by attacking a new system.
Aye, such a list exists here: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_AI_Progress. Look for the title "What Causes AI Progess Changes?"; it has a complete list ;).

A few things cost 1 AI progress... might wanna make sure you aren't killing any of those. Also check the settings; the AI progress increases by X amount every Y minutes, both of which are set at the beginning of the match by you. It might just be coincidence, running into a system at the point where the progress increases.

Everyone talks about taking just one out of every two or three planets, so I'm trying to do that.  But that means I never have an unbroken chain of "safe" planets.  My pattern seems to be x - o - x - o - x - o, an alternating daisy-chain of friendly/unfriendly stretching toward the ultimate target.  Given that my nearest target is still 12 hops away, I need to keep doing this to avoid driving up the Progress Meter too high, right?
Well, if you're taking every other system, and every system has at least 1 Warp Gate and 1 Orbital Command Station (totaling 20 progress points):
12/2 = 6 (number of planets you're taking)
6*20 = 120 (number of planets, times progress points per planet)

So you'll go up about 120 points taking every other planet. I'd say that expectable, but you might not :P. The way I did it in one of my games was to just plunge all my units through, so you have like:
x - o - o - o - o - o - o - o - o - x - o - AI

Or something like that. I started at the first 'x', and just ran through all the o's in the middle, finally taking the second 'x'. I left a buffer planet because if you take a planet, the AI starts reinforcing the planets next to it; this lets the AI Home System just chill, so I can take it out easier later.

Be sure to take a lot of Mobile Builders with you, a lot of Colony Ships (these tend to be focus fired by the AI), and a few Engineers.

Pros: You'll get there faster, less AI progress increase.
Cons: You'll probably lose a lot of ships, if you lose all your Colony Ships and Mobile Builders it is all for naught


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p.s. Sorry if this post seems disconjointed; I'm obscenely tired right now <_<
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Offline x4000

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Re: MAR: "Middle of Action Report" from a newb
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2010, 09:24:35 pm »
Aye, such a list exists here: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_AI_Progress. Look for the title "What Causes AI Progess Changes?"; it has a complete list ;).

Do note that that list didn't exist when he asked the question.  I added it in response to his question. ;)
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Offline Pandemic

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Re: MAR: "Middle of Action Report" from a newb
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2010, 10:03:31 pm »
Do note that that list didn't exist when he asked the question.  I added it in response to his question. ;)
Oh snap :O

I guess I did my research at exactly the right time, then :P.

Again, wonderful work X.


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Offline x4000

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Re: MAR: "Middle of Action Report" from a newb
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2010, 10:06:26 pm »
No worries, glad it's a hit! :)
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Offline Harry

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Re: MAR: "Middle of Action Report" from a newb
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2010, 12:30:16 am »
Quote
I added it in response to his question.
Amazing customer service!  That is just the sort of thing I was looking for.

And you guessed it, I'm seeing "passive" AI Progress increases:

Quote
Most likely what the original questioner was actually seeing was passive AI Progress increase, the amount and period of which can be set up on game start in the lobby. The default is 1 AI Progress increase for every 30 minutes of gametime, but it can be set to anywhere from never having any increase or only having an increase of 1 every 240 minutes, to having an insane increase of 250 every 5 minutes. All sorts of scenarios can come of that, at a variety of difficulties, but most players seem to prefer having a small increase every 30-60 minutes.


I set it to increase every 15 minutes, which may have been unduly brave of me!  Especially given my rather cautious tendencies.  I'm now at AI Progress 191 after 14 hours (!) of play, and yet I've only taken 5 or 6 systems.  I guess 96 of that progress -- fully half of my Progress Meter -- stems from the automatic uptick!  Now I understand why people say you need to keep moving in this game.  :)

Edit: I think I understood what the 15-minute option meant -- I just forgot about it when I started playing!  LoL.  I'll keep at it for a bit, but I'm sorely tempted to start a new game, maybe against 7/7 AI.  I don't seem to have trouble winning battles or with resource management -- I'm just slooooow.  Put more grandly, I think my trouble is more strategy than tactics.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 12:35:24 am by Harry »

Offline x4000

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Re: MAR: "Middle of Action Report" from a newb
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2010, 12:39:40 am »
My pleasure on that.  And really, AI-Progress-wise, I don't think you're in too bad of shape, really.  I tend to end most of my games at around 600-700 just before I kill that second AI home planet if I do.  And sometimes it's even a bit higher than that.

The other big concern when you are taking too long to expand is that that AI is putting more ships into all of its planets where it is "on alert" (which you can see on the galaxy map).  So, that can create a huge and dangerous "crust" of AI ships around your planets, basically, if you just turtle for too long -- that then makes the best strategy often to break through that crust in one spot and then move out into the non-on-alert planets, which probably won't have seen much in the way of benefit from all that time they could have been reinforcing (only exception would have been if the AI filled up its alertrf worlds and still had reinforcements that it needed to allocate elsewhere).

There's no "right" way to play AI War, truly, but different tactics and techniques can lead to a more enjoyable experience depending on your preferences.  Of course, as you ratchet up the difficulty the number of viable strategies does also tend to shrink somewhat, but there's still a fair variety even at the very upper tiers.  I think you're probably going to want to speed up your expansion some, from what you've said, but that's just my gut feel and it's really up to you.

EDIT:

I'll keep at it for a bit, but I'm sorely tempted to start a new game, maybe against 7/7 AI.  I don't seem to have trouble winning battles or with resource management -- I'm just slooooow.  Put more grandly, I think my trouble is more strategy than tactics.

Fair enough, that's entirely viable.  Your playstyle might do better with a higher-level AI, it sure sounds like.  Of course, if you extend yourself more, and thus have your ships more spread out and not in such ideal clusters against your foe, you might find yourself having more of a tactical challenge, too.  Change one or two variables in your playstyle, and the entire feel of what is going on can really change.  All depends on what sort of game you want it to be, really -- if you enjoy it the way you are playing, then go for that and just ratchet up the difficulty.  I think I would find that too slow for my taste, like too little was happening hour over hour -- if you start getting that sense, just remember that there's nothing particularly holding you back from attacking more regularly, and that on your current game you definitely have the buffer you'd need to experiment with a slightly faster playstyle.  I'm not trying to convince you to change, but should you desire a more RTS-paced experience rather than a more 4X-paced experience (which is what you seem to currently be experiencing), just remember it's within your grasp. :)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 12:44:13 am by x4000 »
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Offline Harry

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Re: MAR: "Middle of Action Report" from a newb
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2010, 01:01:01 am »
Thanks for your reply! 

Quote
should you desire a more RTS-paced experience rather than a more 4X-paced experience (which is what you seem to currently be experiencing), just remember it's within your grasp.
Hehe, I think I might be ready for a bit more RTS.  I've just finished a couple weeks of playing "Armada 2526" and re-playing "Galactic Civilizations II", so I have that play-style on my brain.  Although in those games you do need to expand quickly at the start, whereas I turtled somewhat in my first "real game" of AI War.  Thanks also for the link to the reinforcements page; I am indeed seeing some "crusting" around the edges of my empire.  I guess one way to deal with that is to "neuter" bordering worlds early on?  (And maybe steal their knowledge while I'm at it?)

Oh, I thought of one more minor question.  My aging eyes have trouble picking out my own crucial assets in a system -- especially the orbital command station and space dock.  (A level 2 or level 3 power plant is easier to spot because of the Roman numerals under it.)  I don't suppose there's a way for me to put a big "X" on my planet screen somewhere, is there?  Sometimes, as I jump back and forth between systems trying to defend both from a massive AI assault, I forget where my most important assets are.  Not a big deal -- certainly not worth diverting time from work on your impending expansion.


Offline x4000

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Re: MAR: "Middle of Action Report" from a newb
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2010, 01:13:28 am »
Thanks for your reply!

No problem! 

I am indeed seeing some "crusting" around the edges of my empire.  I guess one way to deal with that is to "neuter" bordering worlds early on?  (And maybe steal their knowledge while I'm at it?)

Depends on your goals, really.  A certain amount of crusting is pretty much inevitable, and so that's another reason that early scouting is crucial.  You want to be able to decide, fairly early on in, if you ever need to take a given planet (or if you need to have it at least partly clear for sending ships through to other key planets).  If the answer is no on both counts, you might just want to pop over and kill the warp gate and possibly any train stations or special forces guard posts, but otherwise leave it alone and let it crust: after all, that's going to then be fewer reinforcements going to planets that you are actually interested in.  If you do have interest in that planet, then neutering them earlier can be a good compromise if you're worried about the AI Progress getting too high if you were to take them outright.

Oh, I thought of one more minor question.  My aging eyes have trouble picking out my own crucial assets in a system -- especially the orbital command station and space dock.  (A level 2 or level 3 power plant is easier to spot because of the Roman numerals under it.)  I don't suppose there's a way for me to put a big "X" on my planet screen somewhere, is there?  Sometimes, as I jump back and forth between systems trying to defend both from a massive AI assault, I forget where my most important assets are.  Not a big deal -- certainly not worth diverting time from work on your impending expansion.

There's not a way to do that presently, but if you right-click on the ship on the sidebar at the right of the screen, that centers your view on whatever ship.  Also, there are hotkeys for some of the most oft-selected ships.  Hit D to cycle through your docks on the planet, S for science labs there, and B or H for your command station (B also selects your mobile builders).  There are some other similar ones for engineers and the like, which make it quick to find them.  Hope that helps!
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Offline Harry

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Re: MAR: "Middle of Action Report" from a newb
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2010, 01:33:11 am »
Thanks, that does help. 

Also, you did a terrific job implementing scouting.  It matters, which is great.  One thing I did right was to scout a LOT early on -- I must've sent hundreds of scouts to their doom until I managed to find one of the AI homeworlds, not to mention Adv Factories and Adv Research Labs galore.  (Incidentally, that's also one reason I turtled -- I was so fascinated with all the scouting skullduggery -- dodging trains and whatnot -- that I was slow to get going on offense.  My multitasking skills need work.)  I upgraded to scouts mark 2, and I didn't regret the investment; they survive a lot longer, giving them further scouting range.  It was much better to have some sense of where I was going than just to start expanding blindly.  It's refreshing to play a game in which recon plays such an important role.  In your typical 4X, you just send a scout out hither and yon once, and you're done with it; in AI War, it's more of a challenge, and thus more interesting.  Also, scouting isn't just finding where the enemy is; I also have been using scouts to monitor fleet buildups on my borders, rather like air-search in naval warfare.  I'm a fan of Pacific-war games, and my favorite (War in the Pacific Admiral's Edition) really emphasizes fog of war and recon. 

Anyway, I think I'm going to go to bed and start a new game tomorrow, after doing some work.  Well, maybe just a little work.  :)

Offline carlosjuero

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Re: MAR: "Middle of Action Report" from a newb
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2010, 08:29:09 am »
Just an FYI at the OP - my eyesight isn't the best either :/, so I use the Priority tags to mark what systems are mine/on list for targetting/must be avoided for now/etc. The tags are color coded as well as numbered so if you tag your home planet with, say, P0 - you should be able to recognize it easy on the galaxy map.

My method for priority tagging is like this:

P0 - Homeworld/fully colonized and pretty secure world
P1 - Incursion World - the enemy no longer has a presence but the world is bordered by many AI
P2 - Beachhead - I have only destroyed the warpgate and enemy presence, so this world is not colonized. It is a research raid/stepping stone planet usually
P3-P4 - Next on the waiting list for attack by priority
P5 - This world contains something I need to take care of by colonising, and usually contains stiff enemy resistance. I put this on AI worlds that have Advanced Research, Advanced Factories, etc.
P7-P8 - heavily fortified AI Worlds that caution must be used against
P9 - Mark IV worlds and home worlds usually - or worlds with Ion Cannons that have to be taken special care of or avoided.