Limburger vs the Angry Gods

[Nodor]

If I was doing this (and I should) I would also disable cloaking. 

[tadrinth]

If I was doing this (and I should) I would also disable cloaking. 

No cloaking means no scouting, but I suppose turning off Fog of War solves that little problem.  That would have been an EXCELLENT call as the biggest threats to my defenses are space planes and especially eyebots.

Nemesis

It's been a long, long time.  Work has kept me busy.  I finally picked this campaign back up.

So.

It was not time to kill the AI homeworld.  Triggering the Core CPA guard post triggers a CPA which launches the champion nemesis exo. The CPA is rather anemic, because there's nothing left in the galaxy.  I've neutered everything.  One (not-alerted b/c warp jammer) core world has a few guard posts left, the other has only the command station and a ZPG, and then the AI homeworlds themselves (plus a handful of warp counterattack guard posts because those can kill me).

I pull the fleet back out of Madrid (southern core world) and go conquering again.  Taking Amsterdam in the southern arm nets me a broken Arty golem that I probably won't repair and an ARS with Chameleons.  Sadly I don't have the K for higher marks right now.  Taking Jackson (also in the southern arm) gets me an advanced starship constructor, plus a broken Armored golem. 

I unlock mark III Protector and Enclave starships since that gets me MkIV.  Sadly, economy is in the crapper due to building defenses and a horde of nebula ships.  I have mark I and II FFs and hardened FFs, but I decide that Area Mines and MkIII grav turrets will be a great addition to my defenses, both for waves and for dealing with the coming exo.

While I wait for stuff to build, I look around for stuff to do. I notice I have 160 Hacking Progress, I've done zero fab hacks, and New Mexico (next to Amsterdam) has a Core Spider Turret Controller and a Core Attractor fab.  Spider Turrets should be an excellent counter to Eyebots and Space Planes, both of which are potential problems in waves.  Still directing waves at my homeworld, of course.

I start up the hack, and just after that notice that the threat numbre in the top right is astronomical.  Don't play AI War late at night, kids.  I completely forgot about the champion nemesis exo I was waiting for.  It launched right as I started the hack, with my entire fleet off in the arse end of nowhere.  250 champion nemesis frigates, for the record. 

Also for the record, champion nemesis exos didn't exist when I started this campaign.  I'd have done max alt-champion-progress and zero alt-nemesis-response if the option had been available. 

Just to see how it goes, I let it rampage. The first exo blasts through everything (killing *two* ZPGs on it's way through Choke Mid) on the way to my homeworld.  I frantically build matter converters to deal with the energy debt so my homeworld defenses come back online.  But, by the time the first exo finally gets there, it's in tatters; the huge pile of HW defenses and the massive Roaming Enclave fleet shred the remnants easily.  The other exo is coming, but I'm not worried about it actually killing me. Losing the ZPGs is deemed... unacceptable. 

I reset back and start frantically compiling defenses, now that I know what's coming.  Mines and Mark III grav drones to try to slow down the incoming horde, with 4 champs sent to Choke East to support the full set of turrets and a mod-fort.  The rest of the champs, both useful golems, and the fleet head to Choke Mid, my fallback.  The botnet hides out of the way on Choke South; one of my attempts had it get caught by the exo while it was trying to get to CHoke Mid, and it died almost instantly.

I try to build martyrs, but between allt he turrets I'm trying to build in various places, my economy is running on empty, esp with a few of the econ stations swapped to logistics to slow the eastern exo.

First attempt at the defenses goes rather poorly.  Once the grav turrets go down on Choke East, the exo just flies past everything and sails on to the next system, killing the command center on the way through. I also have my one martyer inconveneniently placed and can't blast the exo as it charges the fleet at Choke Mid.

The second attempt happens when I'm much more awake and goes rather refreshingly better.  I realize that the key to Choke East is to *keep the grav turrets alive*.  The obvious way to do that is to drop every available champion shadow shield over it.  Since I have all those shadow shields, I may as well place them so I can hide my champs under them while getting into close range of the exo.  I have a rather ludicrous number of laser modules on my battleship hulls, and between that and all the turrets and the fort, that actually winds up being enough (though they did fly through a very long minefield on the way in).  I think I way overestimated the danger of these, or way underestimated the ridiculous power of maxed out champions with clever module loadout choice.

Choke mid goes swimmingly, I attempt to soften them witha martyer when they dont' immediately melt before my fleet, and that takes out most of the exo; I think my fleet softened up the forcefield blob.

For anyone who has to fight these, it does't look like you're making any progress at first because ALL the champs have force fields, and you have to get through ALL the force fields before they start dying.  Once you get that far, though, turrets will do amazing things; no fixed defenses have bonuses against Structural (FFs) but lots of things have bonuses vs Heavy (the hulls).  That threw me off a bit, I think.

I rebuild; it does't take too long. I have two mkII Martyrs left, and could probably build a few more.

I notice the Roaming Enclave fleet heading to the southern arm.  They turn east at Choke South and head into Madrid... which is next to the southern AI hoemworld. For a moment I'm wondering if they've decided they have the firepower to take the AI hoemworld itself on... but no, they're just cleaning up the threat on Madrid.  That's where I saved; I'm trying to decide if I should use them to soak the Core Raid Engine wave and just go in on the homeworld. I suspect I could take it with judicious use of my two martyrs and some finely tuned application of 8 Battleship hulls.  IE, I need more Lasers to kill the defending nemesis champs. 

[tadrinth]

Productive Waiting

As amusing as it would be to soak a core raid engine wave via friendly Roaming Enclave younglings, I decide to finish amassing my forces.  My nebula bonus fleet is still well under full strength, and I haven't built marks III and IV of my Enclave and Protector starships.  Clock is at 5:45.

A bit more economy is called for.  If I capped another planet, I'd have enough K to get Mark II Econ stations, which would be nice since I finally have enough planets to actually fit all six stations.  I was tempted to grab Rhode Island in the southern arm with a whopping eight metal nodes, but I'd have to gate raid the adjacent system.  Oklahoma City, on the other hand, is in the western arm just south of Providence, which is where I got my LTFs.  It has seven metal nodes and a Core Missile Controller.  Given that the waves are now quite managable with mkIII grav turrets and area mines, and I'm still under the magical 200 AIP threshold for reinforcement-to-wave redirection, I decide to cap it.  That puts me at 192 AIP, and most of my non-warp-jammed systems get Mark II econs with the K I get.  400k energy with no matter converters, so tasty.

Now that my economy is humming along, it seems like a good time for that Spider Turret Controller hack.  It goes so well I do a covert K extraction while I'm at it for an extra 3k K, which I don't think I ever get around to spending.

A wave of 5k bombers makes me a little nervous so I pick up Mark II Lightning Turrets.  It's now 6:05 and I've STILL not finished my starships or the nebula fleet.  On the other hand, by 6:10 the salvage from two waves has let me pretty much finish the nebula fleet. Have I mentioned how silly 40% salvage is against 5k ship waves?  Finally, by 6:25 my ENTIRE fleet is assembled.  That's 896 nebula ships on Normal caps.  93k strength total.  I build my way up to 7 Martyrs just to be sure; I don't want to fight shadow frigates on the homeworld, I want to vaporize them. 

Of course, right about when my preparations are finally done, a CPA announces. 

Second to Last CPA
20,478 ships.  I'm a bit skeptical there's enough left in the galaxy to actually fund that sucker, but okay.  I build Shieldbearers while I wait; I'd rather let the entire strategic reserve throw itself into a CPA than fight it on the HWs.  It frees:
291 Mark II
151 Mark I
179 Mark III
177 Mark IV
6 Mark V
11,287 Mark II from the Strategic Reserves
8,387 from the Special Forces. 

Well, it didn't QUITE drain the galaxy, but it did pull the entire SR and a fair chunk of the SF.  I feel kind of odd winning a war of attrition against a pair of Diff 10 AIs, but that's what's happening.

It deploys in 3 groups: 8k from the eastern HW, another 8k on Indianapolis just south of Choke East, and 3k on the southern HW.

Hilariously, there are 1200 Mark IV friendly Roaming Enclave-produced Younglings hanging out on the southern core world.  I think I can ignore that southern 3k ships. 

The 8k at Indianapolis refuses to attack Choke East while my fleet is present.  That's okay, I can bring the fight to them, Indianapolis is totally neutered.  I chuck some Martyrs for good measure, that gets it downt o more like 5k, and I slaughter the rest.

The 8k from the eastern HW... that's a problem.  They won't attack Choke East either, and facing them on the core world is... problematic.  There's a Raid Eye there and if I set foot on the planet the Core Raid Engine Guard Post triggers.  My first attempt, I wound up triggering the Eye, so that's an extra 5k Mark IV ships... just to kill 8k Mark II ships.  It goes poorly.

I reload and decide to ignore those 8k ships.  If they don't want to come in, fine, whatever.  Unfortunately, they're not scared off by my static defenses, only by my fleet, so they divebomb Choke East as soon as the fleet leaves Choke Mid... four hops away.  I run the champions back in, and I cleverly left the Botnet on Choke East to deter them if this happened.  It takes a LOT of shadow shielding, and I almost lose the Botnet due to being overly aggressive with it, but that's all it takes to defeat the rest of the CPA (along with a mod fort and a full stack of turrets and a hefty minefield). 

After that kerfluffle and realizing that Martyrs really don't put as big a dent in huge fleets as I might hope, I decide to stockpile a few more martyrs for this homeworld assault.  3xMark II and a Mark III. 6:40 on the clock. 

[tadrinth]

First HW Assault

I hack my way through the Core Raid Engine wave.  Without an entire core planet or half a CPA to support it, that's not super hard.  There's only a minute left until the next Raid Engine wave, but I have everything positioned for the assault.

I send in the Armored Golem, followed immediately by the shieldbearers and champs, then EVERY THING ELSE (that's reclamation immune, because Teuthida).

The OMD shoots the Armored Golem, which it can take, and then the pile of champs immediately spam shadow shields as everything else comes in.

I set off two martyrs almost immediately after.  This clobbers a Core Heavy Beam Guard Post and starts the countdown.  *headdesk*  Guess I have to be careful with those things. 

The CPA guard post triggers and tries to release another 21k ship CPA.  It gets 3k ships instead, all on the other AI homeworld. 

Did you know a 200% attack boosts Core Neinzul Melee Guard Post will kill itself in just 20s solely from self-damage, and in just 5s attacking Light Targets?  I don't think I issued any attack commands against it but it still died pretty darn fast.  Granted, that was after setting off all four martyrs which probably softened it up a bit.

The cursed golem starts sniping the OMD and ion cannons as soon as it gets in. I send the champs to help take out the OMD and nearby core missile guard post, then I send the entire fleet straight for the Fortress guarding the home AI command center.  It goes down like a sack of hammers, and then I get my champions over to kill the Core Raid Engine just before it triggers again.  I killed the Teuthida shortly after, I guess I was taking fire from the railcannons the entire time but I didn't particularly notice, and the reclamation drones just kinda sat there looking sad. 

The champions take out the last few core guard posts and then the AI command station itself goes down. 

Reflections

Core Neinzul Melee Guard post should maybe not suicide in a hilariously trivial amount of time when attack boosted.

Core CPA guard posts should perhaps have a certain amount of reserve strength that they can contribute to the CPA they trigger, so that it isn't so anemic if a CPA just happened.

Nebula fleet > Teuthida. 

Martyrs are very, very satisfying.

[tadrinth]

The 3k ships CPA doesn't look like it has any interest in attacking Choke East, so I just ignore it.  No sense stirring that core world hornet's nest before I have to.  This unfortunately results in it converting to Threatfleet and camping out on the final AI homeworld. 

Final AIP
I finally take out the Coprocessor on the southern AI homeworld, followed by the other three across the rest of the galaxy (I've had raid starships standing by for a very long time).  This puts me at 360 total AIP, 170 reduction, which puts me at the AIP floor of 200.  Seems like a good place to stay until the final HW assault.

AI HW 2 has a wrath lance, so I may as well go grab teleport raiders from the fab with my newly refreshed stockpile of HaP.  Hack goes easily enough.

Final Prep
I decide that even moar martyrs are required, since I have an economy with nothing else ot do but build Martyrs while that hack is happening.  That takes until 7:07.  11 Martyrs, mostly Mark II but two Mark IIIs and one Mark IV.  Also, eleven siege towers, because nemesis shadow frigate force fields. Fourteen Shield Bearers, because why not.  Okay, the seven matter converters I'm now running would be a good reason, if I had anything else I wanted to build.

FINAL ASSAULT
The rest of this is going to get a bit fuzzy, because everything from Productive Waiting to the end happened in one glorious marathon gaming session yesterday, and my final save is named "Kick Down the Door". 

The eastern core world still had a Core Raid Eye and a bunch of guard posts.  I led with the golems, and then brought in the rest of the fleet once the Special Forces started flooding in and the Raid Engine wave showed up.  I used two martyrs to clear the core raid engine wave and I think I managed to avoid setting off the Raid Eye (that may have taken a few tries).  107k strength.  1:30 on the raid engine.

I then threw everything into the final homeworld, same order as the last one except I led with a Martyr to clear the immediate area of the wormhole.  I then promptly blew up most of my Martyrs clearing out the SR and SF and the 150ish shadow frigates. And the 3k threatfleet ships. 

Wrath Lances are bullshit
Wrath Lances are bullshit.

I teleported my Teleport Raiders over to it, and all but 13 of 160 promptly died.  I uh, may have needed to micro them to move NEXT to the engine, not just attack it directly.  Scratch that plan, bit of a waste of a hack.

New plan: suicide the champions at the lance.  Every time a beam swings towards them, I drop a few shadow force field projectors in front of the champions.  It was a bit nerve-wracking, and I'm pretty sure I lost massive swathes of fleet to the lance beams as my fleet tried to clear out a few guard posts.  I also drove my champion pack right past a Core Arachnid Guard Post... I only had five left by the time they got to the wrath lance, but a bit of dancing around and it went down. 

After that, they cleaned up the guard posts they'd flown past.  Shadow FF Projectors are really nice for soaking Core Arachnid shots, by the way.  Suspect I could have gotten all my battleships to the wrath lance if I'd realized I needed to be soaking those shots. =P

Fortress went down to the fleet, followed by the last AI home command station.

VICTORY!

[tadrinth]

Final Stats
See the attached pics for all the details, but...

7:18 on the clock

6:50 PM, after playing since around 1 PM that day.

~33 hours of real time on the final save, not counting the many hours not tracked due to reloads.

My very first Limburger save file is all the way back on 4/28.  Final save is 9/29.  It may have taken me five months, but I got my Double Godlike achievement (which now has a prominent place in my Steam Profile). 

The gods were angry, but the cheese was stinkier than their anger.

I want to thank my friend Taravassal for listening me talk about this campaign on and off for the past few months, alternating between endless strategizing and occasional progress reports.  Granted, I listen to him talk about Solforge a lot. =P

I also want to thank Chris and Keith and everyone at Arcen for making a ridiculously good game.  I especially want to thank Keith for adding Champion Nemesis Exos after I started this campaign.

Reflections
I think pretty much everything I said before about balance is still about right, with a few new things:
* Martyrs rock if you're willing to use enough of them.
* Grav turrets are ludicrously good.  Stops waves and exos in their tracks.  Especially good with a BHM so waves don't just turn around and leave without ever getting into range.
* Wrath lances are bullshit. Nah, they're fine, but I don't really want to ever face two at once.  Please make that impossible, I've seen it recently while testing. Homeworlds should never roll two Eyes for their brutal picks, I dunno if that's possible, but it's far too kind.
* Teleport raiders were really disappointing as a Wrath Lance counter (though better micro might have fixed that).
* Poor Mine Evasion is the most hilarious 'Immunity' ever.  Watching a pile of carriers blunder through a 3-thick line of area mines is comedy gold.  You can only see the transport count for the topmost carrier in the stack, though, hard to tell how well they're working.  Area mines got 7k kills despite being unlocked pretty late, comparable to the Botnet and beaten out pretty much only by the Cursed golem (10k) and Lightning Torpedos (15k zomg).  Photon Lance Module: 6k, Spire Mod Fort only 680.

[tadrinth]

Next Up

I started a Neinzul-inspired campaign a looooong time ago, but I think I may start another one.  I could use some advice for some of the settings I'm undecided on, mostly tuning the numbers.  The intent of the campaign is to really get the flavor of the Children of the Neinzul expansion, although I'll probably enable all the expacs.  I want to get back to basics and use as few superweapons as possible, though I'm never above choosing my starting ship wisely for the campaign I'm planning. 

Here's my current planned lobby:
214045189 seed
Concentric 80 planet
AIP 1 per 30
All ships and all ship types (woo DG Lairs)
Low caps (game has been chugging on the large fights, esp waves, even with the latest 8.0+ perf improvements)
Dyson Sphere 4
Preservation Wardens 4
Roaming Enclaves 4
Hybrids 4/4
Advanced Hybrids 7/7
Diff 9 Neinzul Youngster/Neinzul Cluster Bomber, Diff 9 Neinzul Viral Enthusiast/Neinzul Nester

Starting ship: Neinzul Tigers or Neinzul Combat Carrier. 

Any thoughts on whether Tigers or the NCC is a better counter to Hybrid Hives? Tigers would chase them better and have bonuses, but NCCs would provide gravity to keep them from escaping.  I could also definitely hack to steal Tigers from the Youngster, but then I wouldn't be able to corrupt them, which would otherwise be a high priority corruption target.  Or I could do a two-homeworld game just to start with both.  Or cheat. 

I'm really not sure how to balance the difficulty vs the Hybrid Hive minor faction vs the AI types. Somewhere in Diff 8-9 is probably right, but I'm not sure where.

Do the intensities for the Hybrid minor factions seem appropriate? Advanced Hybrids 7 seems to be the minimum to see all the various dyson-related plots.  Hybrids 4 is the default, so that seems pretty reasonable.  They're a huge part of the expansion so it seems appropriate to have them be a big focus of the campaign.

The AI types are... well, about as Neinzul-oriented as I could get.  The dual type on the first AI negates the reinforcement penalty of the Youngster, so it's just going to get the 1.5x wave multipliers and all-youngling waves.  That'll probably hurt a bit.

The second AI balances a hard AI type with an easy AI type, but I'm a little nervous about the Nester.  Those nests are a whopping +10 AIP to blow up!  That's twice the cost of BHMs and Raid Engines.  Maybe they're sufficiently not-scary that I can handle them without destroying many of them, but... I'd feel a lot better if they cost 5 AIP instead.  Sabotage hacking will only get me so far.

I have a feeling this game is going to consist of a lot of hybrids attacking my territory, following by them retreating and me chasing them into a massive pile of Neinzul nests and clusters.

The only superweapon I'm considering adding is a champion, since they're really fun and they can be optimized for Hybrid hunting.  Still a bit cheesy but with all the pain I'm signing up for, that might be appropriate.  Also, time taken to do nebula missions is time for the Hybrids to multiply, which is potentially a pretty big counterbalance.  Also nemesis exos. 

I'm aiming for this to be a serious challenge.  Maybe not 'use warheads or die', but probably 'use warheads or lose irreplaceables'. 

Thoughts?

[Toranth]

Nice win, and Congrats on the Double Godlike.

Next Up
I started a Neinzul-inspired campaign a looooong time ago, but I think I may start another one.  I could use some advice for some of the settings I'm undecided on, mostly tuning the numbers.  The intent of the campaign is to really get the flavor of the Children of the Neinzul expansion, although I'll probably enable all the expacs.  I want to get back to basics and use as few superweapons as possible, though I'm never above choosing my starting ship wisely for the campaign I'm planning. 

Here's my current planned lobby:
214045189 seed
Concentric 80 planet
AIP 1 per 30
All ships and all ship types (woo DG Lairs)
Low caps (game has been chugging on the large fights, esp waves, even with the latest 8.0+ perf improvements)
Dyson Sphere 4
Preservation Wardens 4
Roaming Enclaves 4
Hybrids 4/4
Advanced Hybrids 7/7
Diff 9 Neinzul Youngster/Neinzul Cluster Bomber, Diff 9 Neinzul Viral Enthusiast/Neinzul Nester

That's almost the Neinzul-themed game I'm setting up.  I have only 3 achievements left, against 3 Neinzul AI types, so my game will look a look like yours.

Starting ship: Neinzul Tigers or Neinzul Combat Carrier. 

The Neinzul Combat Carrier is definitely better.

Do the intensities for the Hybrid minor factions seem appropriate? Advanced Hybrids 7 seems to be the minimum to see all the various dyson-related plots.  Hybrids 4 is the default, so that seems pretty reasonable.  They're a huge part of the expansion so it seems appropriate to have them be a big focus of the campaign.

I'd suggest upping the Hybrids number, because that's what controls the number of Hybrid spawners.  In one game I accidently set Advanced Hybrids to 10, but didn't enable Hybrids - so it auto-enabled at level 1.  That meant 3 Hybrid spawners in the entire galaxy.  Even at level 4, there are only a dozen spawners. 
Especially if you're going to use Champions to go Hybrid Hunting, you'll want to add a few more Hybrid Hive Spawners, or there's a good chance you'll reduce them to insignificance too soon.

[tadrinth]

Nice win, and Congrats on the Double Godlike.

Thanks! 

The NCC actually seems more thematically appropriate than Tigers, as well, so NCC it is. 

Diff 9 is where you get the final AI type achievements, so Diff 9 it is. 

What Hybrid intensity would you recommend if I didn't have a champion? 

[Toranth]

What Hybrid intensity would you recommend if I didn't have a champion?

If my memory is correct, there are 3 x Hybrid-Level spawners per player.  Without a Champion, level 4 or 5 is 12 to 15 Hive Spawners per player, enough to make the Hybrids noticeable at all times, and dangerous if ignored too long, but not make them the 100% dominant threat in the game.
With Champions, I'd probably up it to level 7 or 8 (21-24 Hive spawners per player), because you'll easily kill off the closest 10-20 spawners with your Frigate in just a few hours.  The larger number of total spawns makes it more likely some will be in places hard to kill, like AI HWs or Coreworlds, or under Bunkerer shields, so that Hybrids will continue to be a threat all game long.

I'd be more concerned about the Advanced Hybrid plot going all the way to 7 on a map like Concentric, where it can sometimes be very hard to get to the Super Hybrid.

Of course, take my opinions with a grain of salt.  I don't deal well with Hybrids.  I got my Double Godlike before I beat a game Diff 9 with Hybrids enabled.
You might consider starting a game you don't intend to finish with Hybrids and Complete Visibility, then jump to +!!! speed and let it run for a few hours.  After 3 or 4 game hours, you'll get a decent idea of what that level of Hybrids is like.

[TechSY730]

* Grav turrets are ludicrously good.  Stops waves and exos in their tracks.  Especially good with a BHM so waves don't just turn around and leave without ever getting into range.

Like OP to trivializing the game good? Just fun to use OP good? Or just merely good? (Keeping in mind they are galaxy capped, not planet capped)

* Wrath lances are bullshit. Nah, they're fine, but I don't really want to ever face two at once.  Please make that impossible, I've seen it recently while testing. Homeworlds should never roll two Eyes for their brutal picks, I dunno if that's possible, but it's far too kind.

I feel like there should just be a blanket ban on duplicate brutal pick for AI HWs. In the hopefully very rare case of there not being enough brutal picks (like few or no expansions enabled on high difficulty, or something), then there can be a "whitelist" of "OK to duplicate if absolutely needed to fulfill brutal pick counts" brutal picks.

I think the duplicate eye thing was fixed quite some time ago though.

* Teleport raiders were really disappointing as a Wrath Lance counter (though better micro might have fixed that).

I actually had some pretty good success at using teleporting ships to counter wraith guard posts. Admittedly, it was quite micro intensive and not exactly a fast process, but it is one of the most cost efficient ways I have found to deal with wraith guard posts now that the AI HW Command Center gives planetary tachyon coverage.

That said, it would be nice if teleporters did not stack (especially not right on top of their target) upon giving an attack order onto a thing with AOE damage. Against non AOE ships, teleporting right on top is actually good (the target is further inside the range, meaning they have to retreat further to avoid damage, keeping consistent DPS up longer (teleporting does have a slight "stun time").

Something that might help is to, as soon as the teleporters get onto the HW, pause the game, give the attack order to the wraith lance to set target priority, teleport out of range of the beams (so you don't get screwed by psuedo-randomness if it turns on where your ships are before you know safe places), and once the beams turn on and thus you know where it is safe, teleport up close but not on top of it. Then just keep moving around in the circle as needed. Yea, the other defenders on the planet will likely take out the teleporters, but at least they should be able to get some shots on the wraith, and not have to worry about taking damage from the wraith itself (thus, you know, living to fire those shots).

Micro intensive, yes, but teleporting ships have always been the sort of ship to be micro heavy to get your best money's worth out of them.

[tadrinth]

Just fun to use OP good?

Grav turrets are good precisely in proportion to the amount of force field coverage you have over them and the stubbornness of the opposing enemy ships.  Eight champions worth of shadow shield makes them effectively immortal, and either black hole machines or the exo AI makes the enemy ships too stubborn to leave.  They're not OP, they're just multiplicative with your other defenses, so at a certain level of defensive choke strength, they become the most efficient unlock if you can get full use from them.  Vs regular waves they can be a handicap if the waves turn and run before ever getting into the teeth of your defenses.

In the hopefully very rare case of there not being enough brutal picks

IIRC, there are at most 3 brutal picks per HW.  If each HW has an eye, then you only need four brutal picks in the base game to have completely unique brutal picks across both HWs, or two to not have duplication within a HW. Are there that many?

 If you pick the Brutal type, then that's potentially four picks per HW; Destroyer of Worlds didn't add any brutal core guard posts, but I feel like the Brutal type could be exempt from the no-duplicates rule.  You're asking for it, basically. 

Micro intensive, yes, but teleporting ships have always been the sort of ship to be micro heavy to get your best money's worth out of them

Yep, I'm sure they would have worked great had I been paying attention at all.  End of a looong play session, at that point I just wanted it over with, and I figured I'd try my backup strat before reloading yet again.  It worked out, just not as originally planned. =P  I've micro'd the crap out of space planes, just not used to teleporting units really.  I should start with Teleport Raiders sometime. 

Without a Champion, level 4 or 5 is 12 to 15 Hive Spawners per player, enough to make the Hybrids noticeable at all times, and dangerous if ignored too long, but not make them the 100% dominant threat in the game.

Is that with the Hybrid plot enabled on both AIs? I was planning to go with Hives 4 on both, and maybe more like 5 or 6 based on your feedback. I'm leaning toward no champions.  Testing with Hybrids 5 on both AIs at Diff 9 gives 32 spawners, which sounds a bit high.  I'll probably go with 4 and 4, which gives 20 spawners.  Seems like sufficient !!fun!! with the Nester in the mix.

I'd be more concerned about the Advanced Hybrid plot going all the way to 7 on a map like Concentric, where it can sometimes be very hard to get to the Super Hybrid.

Good point.  I'll probably drop this to 2/1, I don't mind a temporarily-angry Dyson.  Anything more than that can wait until I've beaten Hybrids at least once. I will note that the map seed I'm using lets me start within 11 hops of everything. 

The Hybrids totally need a Zenith Trader lure.  Keeps the Trader within a few hops and ups the chance to spawn an AI structure.  "Oh, you wanted to buy things this game? Maybe after we're done covering this corner of the map with Superforts."

Also, Hybrids should be able to build Train stations.  And Human Colony Decloakers.

In theory, I should turn on Neinzul Rocketry Corps, but that's just a bit too much chaos for me.

Only other change I will make is changing to 5 AIP every 240 minutes, because round numbers.

[Hearteater]

I feel hybrids need more offensive options. It is too easy for them to stack up but refuse to attack. Let them build a beachhead ship and push that through a worm hole for example.

[Toranth]

I feel hybrids need more offensive options. It is too easy for them to stack up but refuse to attack. Let them build a beachhead ship and push that through a worm hole for example.

I'd love to see Hybrids improved.  An entire expansion dedicated to improving Hybrids would be awesome.  More Hybrid/plot interactions, more Hybrid types, more Hybrid activities - building defenses, recapturing planets, leading attacks, etc.  I think the Warp Relays should have been a Hybrid ability, along with the most of the Astro-Train Construction projects.  The Trader Lure and Colony Decloaker are good ideas as well.  All sorts of cool stuff they could do!

But yeah, right now they're mostly remarkable as a +Threat option.  A very dangerous one, kind of Threatfleet and Special Forces all rolled into one, but still just "Moar AI Units".

[tadrinth]

A cargo train construction equivalent would make a lot of sense for them, yeah. Especially if there is an actual structure which you can blow up. 

I like having Warp Relays as a separate plot, but if those are enabled, hybrids should be able to build them. 

I actually started the campaign last night! I'll probably start up a new thread once I have progress to report.