Author Topic: Heroic Fortress King (9/9 balance report and stuff)  (Read 10251 times)

Offline Kahuna

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Re: Heroic Fortress King (9/9 balance report and stuff)
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2012, 02:07:20 pm »
AI's Champions should become stronger as AIP increases.
They get bigger hulls at higher AI tech levels.
Yet the FIRST champions are almost as powerful as Golems.. LOL
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Heroic Fortress King (9/9 balance report and stuff)
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2012, 02:14:19 pm »
Is it starting with Destroyers?  Isn't that the second hull size?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Heroic Fortress King (9/9 balance report and stuff)
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2012, 02:15:29 pm »
Is it starting with Destroyers?  Isn't that the second hull size?
Initially it started with DDs, but as of some versions ago it starts with FFs, unless you're on 10/10 when the AI starts on tech-2.
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: Heroic Fortress King (9/9 balance report and stuff)
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2012, 02:15:50 pm »
This should stop silly things like your first wave containing the lowest level hero ship but with some of the best available modules for it making it an effectively early game Mk. II-III wave or something.
I don't know what the hulls or levels of these Champions were but they definitelly weren't the lowest lvl. Cruiser or Destroyer.. or something. (AI's Human Champions had 3 wings)

Actually, this would be a good change for the Spire Hammer as well.
IMO Spire Hammer is ok atm
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
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) else (
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Heroic Fortress King (9/9 balance report and stuff)
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2012, 02:43:48 pm »

IMO Spire Hammer is ok atm

Agreed. At tech one the frigates lack modules so it isn't as difficult as a champion with it's modules. Then at tech II the modules are pretty tame.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Heroic Fortress King (9/9 balance report and stuff)
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2012, 05:05:42 pm »
Based on the discussion so far, if I am reading it right, it sounds like something strange is going on with the Heroic AI type. It is somehow getting in waves higher level champion hulls than the current tech level should be letting it get. Or in some cases, two of them.  :o

Offline Diazo

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Re: Heroic Fortress King (9/9 balance report and stuff)
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2012, 08:22:13 pm »
Based on the discussion so far, if I am reading it right, it sounds like something strange is going on with the Heroic AI type. It is somehow getting in waves higher level champion hulls than the current tech level should be letting it get. Or in some cases, two of them.  :o
Well, I just got 2x Human Shadow Frigates in the face which is the hull size I expect. I got two of them on Diff 9, AIP 51. That is about what I would expect I think.


Night #2 Game Log Begins

And so begins the second night.

I go back in time about 5 game minutes, just long enough to call my attack off.

Holding my entire fleet in reserve makes the 2x Human Shadow Frigates wait for a wave of fighters to be released.

However, holding my entire fleet back makes the difference and I stop the Shadow Frigates cold.

It only costs me about 15% of my mobile fleet and 60 turrets destroyed.

And I decided enough is enough. The different hull Shadow Ships have different hull types but the force fields all all Structural.

* Diazo unlocks Basic Turret Mk II and HBC Mk I

Time to fortify like it is a diff 10/10 game.


******* edit 1


On the game itself, I've captured my second system, it is the dead end world at the end of the chain that has an ARS. It got me Sentinel Frigates which actually are not half bad, especially with Military Command stations.

Because there was an eye I used zenith siege engines with cloakers to snipe the guard posts and then the command station.

By grouping the siege engines with cloakers, they are cloaked for the 15 seconds setup time after they start moving and do not get decloaked until they fire.

A cap of Mk I and II siege engines is enough to destroy the Mk IV guard posts in a single volley so after sniping the guard post I would run away and recloak. I only lost 6 or 7 seige engines sniping the 6 guard posts this way.

On the Shadow Ships. I saved quite frequently during my attack on the ARS system so I had a save from just before the 2 Human Shadow Frigates warped in. To test my fixed defences I pulled all my mobile units out.

To destroy 2x Human Shadow Frigates without them doing noticeable damage to the FFs over my command station took:
2 sacrificial gravity turrets away from my turret ball towards the warp point to slow their closure with my command station
Military Command Mk II for a 50% damage bonus
8x HBC Mk I
20x Laser Turret Mk I
20x MLRS Turret Mk I
9x Missile Turret MK I
30x Sniper Turrets
58x Basic Turret Mk I
68x Basic Turret MK II

Even that did not kill the 2x Shadow Frigates quickly, I would estimate that reducing the effective firepower by 20% would have made it a toss up and by 25% or more would have let the Shadow Frigates win.

However, taking that ARS system has my AIP up to 71 and the next wave is 717 ships. They are from the fortress baron though so no Champion will be with the wave.

******************* Strategy time:
Hmmm.
I'm feeling this game. You know I normally play a super low AIP game right? Well, not this time.

I'm taking the entire bottom left corner of the map, the worlds marked P4 and P5 will be my border systems.

This is going to be intense, I have stepped the difficulty down from 10 to 9 and capturing this bottom left corner is 9 more systems. I'll have to capture 2 or 3 more as staging for attacking the AI homeworlds also. Even allowing for the Data Centers I have not popped yet, I'm looking at an AIP of 200 when I begin my first attacks on the AI homeworld. That is a lot higher then I'm used to.

And done for the night. Once I capture 2 more systems taking me to 130 AIP, time to go Data Center hunting, I have 5 that will be within reasonable easy reach by that time.

D.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 10:26:19 pm by Diazo »

Offline Diazo

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Re: Heroic Fortress King (9/9 balance report and stuff)
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2012, 10:41:49 pm »
Okay, post about the Heroic AI type balance.

At the moment, I think it is okay where it is.

Once I actually buckled down and built some more turrets, my systems were able to hold out against the Shadow Ships without too much difficulty.

My frustration last night (night #1) really came from the fact that they are not announced and kept slipping into systems while my attention was elsewhere and I had only built enough defences to ward of threat which consists of fleet ships.

A Shadow Frigate is just a little more powerful then a fleet ship and so it was just waltzing right through my defenses before I even knew it was there.

Having dropped more turrets, I was able to get to the point where my turrets alone could stop Shadow Frigates without too much difficulty.

We'll see what happens when my front expands to 5 systems.

I may have to go back on my word and unlock fortresses with so many front line systems, but we will see how far I can stretch the knowledge I will get from that many systems first.

D.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Heroic Fortress King (9/9 balance report and stuff)
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2012, 04:08:07 am »
Are you sure it's wise to capture that much stuff? Even on Diff 7 I wouldn't do that unless it leads to chokepoints. You're just broadening the front, is there any real gain to that?

Offline Diazo

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Re: Heroic Fortress King (9/9 balance report and stuff)
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2012, 09:26:58 am »
That's what is going to make this fun though.  8)

More seriously, my last several games have used the super-low AIP strategy of capturing the absolute minimum number of systems by hopping over the AI systems in between and they using warp jammer command stations to prevent waves from arriving at them.

I wanted to do something different and have been thinking about this for a while now.

See my thread about wave sizes vs. targets.

Am I over-extending and setting myself up for failure? Perhaps, we'll see how long my self-imposed no fortresses or mines rule lasts.

However, the RNG did like me, by setting my front up there I capture 3 ARS and destroy 3 CSG networks so I don't have that many more systems I have to capture.

D.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Heroic Fortress King (9/9 balance report and stuff)
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2012, 10:40:45 am »
That's what is going to make this fun though.  8)
DOOM!

;)
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Offline Cinth

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Re: Heroic Fortress King (9/9 balance report and stuff)
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2012, 10:52:42 am »
10 Heroic is crazy hard. 40 destroyers at around 25 minutes is not in any way, shape, or form, easy to put down.

Hoping you can find a way to do it though!!
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Offline Diazo

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Re: Heroic Fortress King (9/9 balance report and stuff)
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2012, 10:59:30 am »
10 Heroic is crazy hard. 40 destroyers at around 25 minutes is not in any way, shape, or form, easy to put down.

Hoping you can find a way to do it though!!

Wait, what?

I'm at the 2 hour gametime marker on diff 9/9 and I'm getting 2 Shadow Frigates at once every 20 minutes (roughly) or so.

Usually human, I've gotten a couple of spire frigate spawns though.

The only time I've seen a Neinzul Frigate is with a wave.


More exactly, I'm seeing Shadow Frigates from two sources.

When the Heroic AI sends a wave, a single Shadow Frigate gets added to that wave. (Of any type.)

Also, pairs of Shadow Frigates (of any type) will sometimes appear in the same manner threat does, I believe these spawn on the AI homeworld and then travel the galaxy to reach me.

Note that I am playing against a Heroic AI and a Fortress King, not two Heroic AIs, I assume that two Heroic AIs would double the Shadow Frigates being sent my way.

So, 40 destroyers at 25 minutes? That sounds like something went wrong there.

D.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Heroic Fortress King (9/9 balance report and stuff)
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2012, 11:09:48 am »
So, 40 destroyers at 25 minutes? That sounds like something went wrong there.
Yea, right around the point he started selecting multiple homeworlds in the lobby.
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Offline Diazo

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Re: Heroic Fortress King (9/9 balance report and stuff)
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2012, 11:31:34 am »
Ohhh, right.

That multiple HW multiplier would hurt. Owies.

(10 HW? I'm on a single HW map.)

D.