Game Start! 3.182 beta feedback stuff

[Diazo]

TL,DR: Tuesday night game continued next post.

Ya, and why if the Force Field is at 100%, the HBC do in fact do no damage. (Can someone else actually confirm this?)

Anyways, looking at the numbers, on a pure damage basis, nothing even comes close to the sieges. 24000 dps vs the shield, 48000 dps vs the hull. The next closest is the HBC, using no bonuses as it seems to get none, comes in at 10000 dps shield/hull. Third is MLRS turrets Mk III at 4000 dps shield, 8000 dps hull.

Fighters Mk III are only 500 dps shield/hull and bombers Mk III are 1800 dps shield, 4500 dps hull.

However, as this will be a long fight, looking at the dps vs. cost ratio is interesting. On a per resource basis, MLRS Mk III are by far the most efficient at 2 dps per resource point. Fighters second at 1.2 dps per resource point and bombers are third at 0.75 dps per resource point.

However, I'm still fortressing all the systems. Because the fortress outranges the Avenger it doesn't die, so it will be by far my most effective unit. Everything else will die.  

Looks like it will be a fortress every system, with MLRS/Fighter spam every other system or so.

Here we go, this will take a while to setup but I'm giving it a shot.

[keith.lamothe]

If you can pick off the avenger's weapon modules it will greatly reduce the rate at which it slaughters you (to much closer to "just" a superfortress).

[Diazo]

TL,DR: Tuesday night game continued next post.

I did look at that but I have Eye Bots Mk I and Snipers and that's it for units that ignore force fields. So I'm just going to batter that shield down.

Although a 3rd rebel colony just popped up, but this one's on it's own, at least until I get this Avenger down.

Alright, I don't think my defenses are quite there, but I want to see how this does.

For this first go around I have:

Mk I,II,III fighters/bombers to cap.
3x Flagship, 1x Light Starship, 5x Siege (Which I plan to transport rush out to save them.)
138x MRLS Mk III Turrets
1x Fortress Mk I, 1x Fortress Mk II.

All units position to be in range of the Avenger's spawn point.

Alright, after everything but the fortresses are dead, the Force Field's at 70%. Long way to the warp point, I'm hoping the fortresses get that to 60% before it leaves the system.

Building my next choke point.

WTF? It's following a different path then yesterday. This really screws me over.

[Fruden]

 Well... i guess there's no point in not saying it but... there's 2 cheap ways i've found to deal with the avengers.

 First is simply to destroy both ai homeworld command stations at roughly the same time. Both avengers will spawn, but the game is won anyway, there is no requirement to destroy them.

 But that's boring. To kill an avenger cheaply, make snipers on its path and target them at the heavy beams. They have a bonus against those and while it will take some time, eventually the beams will be destroyed. Once they are.... build 3 force fields over the next wormhole it wants to cross or the next command station it wants to destroy and assign an engineer to each. The avenger won't have enough dps to get through and will stall there forever. Build some snipers or a fortress out of range and forget about it, after some time it will be gone.

 Anyway, as for the heavy beams, i made a topic in the bugs forum (http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,6911.0.html) with a save and picture.

[keith.lamothe]

But that's boring. To kill an avenger cheaply, make snipers on its path and target them at the heavy beams. They have a bonus against those and while it will take some time, eventually the beams will be destroyed. Once they are.... build 3 force fields over the next wormhole it wants to cross or the next command station it wants to destroy and assign an engineer to each. The avenger won't have enough dps to get through and will stall there forever. Build some snipers or a fortress out of range and forget about it, after some time it will be gone.

Yes, that's a very valid tactic; it's not intended to be a smart unit, just an unbelievably strong one   Having units that can hit the beam cannons before the forcefield is down is a big boon, and at that point simply blocking it with forcefields becomes possible and desirable.

[Diazo]

TL,DR: Tuesday night game finished.

Ugh.

The avenger taking a different route and going around 2 of my defense points hurts, bye bye home command station.

Reload and this time it goes the long way, giving my fortresses time to shoot.

Interesting note, with the force field getting smaller as it takes damage (force field at 33%), I'm destroying turrets on the avenger with normal weapons that are not force field immune.

Lol, a wave just warped into my next defense system that I'm preparing for the avenger, it didn't last long.

Alright, Avenger force field down, on the second system out from the AI home world.

And the 3rd system out has my Zenith Power Generator, going to pop my own command station to get the avenger through this system ASAP, no defenses here and I want to keep the Z-gen alive if at all possible.
I built my command and z-gen far enough away from the warp points it won't range on the Z-gen without my command station there for it to chase. (hopefully).

Grrr, it's still chasing my artillery golem which I also stuck in this system.

Alright, scrapped everything except the Z-gen and an FFG covering it, Avenger has turned around so I get to keep my Z-gen.

Next system is my next choke point. Avenger shield down and hull at 72%.

ARGH! It warped out of the system I was hoping it would die in at 4% HP.

This is going to put a hole in my perimeter defenses when it goes off.


AND GOT IT!!!

I killed it 5 hops from the AI homeworld, 2 hops from my homeworld.

Took:

MLRS Turret Mk III x276
Fighter Mk I & II x396
Fighter Mk III x138
Bomber Mk I & II x396
Bomber Mk III x138
Siege Starship Mk I x5
Flagship x3
Light Starship x1
Fortress Mk I & II x5

Note that it didn't actually kill the fortresses, but that's me building them in every system I could.
The fortresses were what did it. When I reloaded the Avenger took the longer path through my systems instead of going through an AI system to bypass my second choke point.
With their range and the slow movement of the Avenger, I'd say the fortresses alone did 60% of the shield and 40% of the hull.
Except for the system with the Z-gen in it that I wanted the Avenger out of ASAP, it was always under fire from both a fortresses Mk I and Mk II, I even built the fortresses in the AI home system before blowing the command post.

Which is why it taking the longer route let me get it this time. With the shorter route it could also take, I had a system and a half less time for my fortresses to beat it down.

Alright, deep breath. Time to put my defenses back together. I may have gotten the avenger, but I still lost 5 systems and need to capture the AI homeworld now.

And this rebel colony has 90 minutes left on it's clock.

And that's it for me tonight, got my empire kind-of pieced back together.

That 3rd rebel colony is going to go boom, but I only have 2 systems to clear before I'm attacking the 2nd AI homeworld so I'm just going to eat the 100AIP. It's also 4 hops away behind a Mk IV system and 3 unscouted systems.

Anyways, I'll try to finish this off tomorrow.

D.

[keith.lamothe]

Interesting note, with the force field getting smaller as it takes damage (force field at 33%), I'm destroying turrets on the avenger with normal weapons that are not force field immune.

Yep, that's a neat little detail that's possible with AI War's forcefield mechanic (which is more detailed than most "shield" mechanics, in this way)   I might actually put some of the cannon mounts a bit closer to the edge to make it possible to take them out at a higher ff percent.

[Diazo]

Alright, I'm not going to get a chance to play today so instead, have some screen shots.

These are of my current galaxy, so about 20 minutes gametime after the Avenger died.

The first picture is of the AI home system.

Note where the Exo-galaxy wormhole the avenger spawns from and the distance between the two points.
When the Avenger warped out the closer wormhole, that's an AI planet still and it managed to reach my home command station.
When it went to the other side of the system and out the wormhole that leads to my system, giving the forts more time, that was when I was able to kill the avenger.

The second screenshot is my galaxy view with me numbering the interesting systems. Note how few systems I have scouted, only 28 of 80. I've found both AI homeworlds early, only 1 ARS and no Advanced Factories.

1) My homeworld.

2) The Mk III Ion cannon I captured early in the game, that then got one-shotted by the warden bombers. Link

3) The wall I it early in the game with too many hybrids that I had to leave and come back to. Link (same as #2)

4) The first rebel colony outpost that I rescued. Note it is 6 hops from my nearest system. (14) Link

5) The second Rebel Colony that I rescued.

6) The third rebel colony that I'm not going to rescue. It's 4 hops away behind a Mk IV system, and 3 more unscouted systems.

7) The first mining golem destroyed this system, leaving just the Neinzul Rocketry Corps Silo, which seems broken. It spawns missiles, but they just sit on the silo. I had to go through it to rescue the first Rebel Colony and the missiles ignored me until I deliberately got close enough to aggro them. Link

The system that I had previously cleared and then came back and found it had been forted up by Hybrid Builders. Link

9) First AI homeworld that spawned the avenger.

10) The bad route (for me) for the avenger to take. It could go through this system, or through system 11. When I had reloaded (again) and the Avenger went through system 11 is the time I killed it.

11) Artillery golem found here. Link

12) System that used to be one of my fortified perimeter systems that had been nuked by the Avenger dying. Note how far it got against me even on my fourth reload. That thing was an absolute beast.

13) The second AI homeworld. Haven't scouted it yet but the Mk IV next to it gave it away.

14) My Launch point for pretty much anything at all. My attacks on both AI homesystems and the first two rebel colonies launched from here.

And that's it for tonight, see you guys tommorow.

D.

[keith.lamothe]

Many congratulations on taking the avenger down; there are tactics which make it easier as you've seen, but it's pretty intense no matter how you cut it

[Diazo]

TL,DR: Thursday game finished.

Yes, the avenger is the absolute worst unit in the game, in terms of having to fight it anyway.  

(I want one!)

Anyways, it's Thursday night, time to see if I can wrap this up.

Need to do some fixing of borders and rebuild my fleet as I've got pretty much no mobile units left after the avenger has roflstomped me.

Ummm, wow. I thought that last fortress system was bad. This system has:

14x Force Fields Mk I
16x Force Fields Mk II
7x Neinzul Cluster Mk I
23x Neinzul Cluster Mk II
6x Neinzul Viral Cluster Mk IV

Ummm. I'm going around....
Which fortunately I can do.

It's not like my alternate route is easy mind you, 7 Zenith Starships and 8 Spire starships for starters.

The 4th mining golem of the game just came up, again, ignoring it.

And I got 4 guard posts down in the second AI homesystem, but wasn't able to finish it off.

Ah well, I've got this, just needs one last push.

D.

[Diazo]

MWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!

Got the second AI home command down!!

and Wow, this is by far my most epic game of AI war so far.

Gametime: 29:32:33
AIP: 701 This AIP includes the second AI's command station death aswell as the 100 AIP from the 3rd rebel colony I did not rescue.
14 Systems captured, 2 of those being rebel colony systems I would not have captured otherwise.
Youngling Commando as my special ship.

Attached the endgame stats at the bottom. Note my fortress kills, 37.5% of my total kills are from my fortresses, which would include the Avenger. On defense, nothing comes even close to touching a fortress.

Anyways, here's my overall thoughts on the game:

First, my setup was 80 planets, AI 7 for both, single planet start, youngling commandos as my special ship, all minor factions on, one AI with hybrids enabled (not advanced). I actually don't think the advanced hybrids option was available on the version of AI war that I started my game on. I played the capture only what you need to win the game style.

Hybrids: Not sure I can comment, I played the early game with the pre-nerf hybrids and found them quite hard, but broke through. Mid-game was on the patch where the AI was actually scrapping the hybrids, end game with what the hybrids are at today, my defenses were so powerful they essentially didn't matter any more.
Except for fortress systems. Due to how the map was split, with the first AI off by itself on the bottom, I gave the hybrids hours worth of gametime to build fortresses systems. I have a couple systems bordering my defensive line that have x30 Force Field Generators and x20 Neinzul Clusters that have been build by the hybrids. I'm not sure if that's a bad thing or not, I did give the hybrids 15-20 hours of gametime to fortress those systems, but the only way I can see to break that is Missile spam which would shoot your AIP up.
I'd be okay with leaving the hybrid builders as they are, if we could see hybrids from adjacent systems like we can a devourer so we could go "Oh, need to clean those hybrids out" or "I won't need that system, let them build".

Fortresses: How much more can I wax eloquent about these? I'm going to try and play my next game without fortresses, but I think these have spoiled me. Depending on how my game without fortresses goes, I'm probably going to start making them my first or second unlock. They make defense so much easier.

Preservation Wardens: Ummm, no comment? It may have been because fortresses hard counter these so easily but I didn't even notice these. I'd stopped even bothering to switch to the system when the preservation wardens attacked it. They are supposed to get more powerful the more harvesters you have running and my gross metal (not net) when I won was only 800. Maybe they'd have been a worry if I had more systems?

Roaming Enclaves: Now these I noticed. They weren't powerful enough to actually affect anything, but they were closer then the preservation wardens, especially after their buff in the last patch. Getting 1000 younglings thrown in your face makes you stand up and take notice. With how weak younglings are, these are pretty okay, if younglings get a buff (as has been talked about in other threads), these may need further tweaking.

Buildable Enclaves: A nice feature, but hard to use with hybrids enabled. These are designed to support deep strikes out of supply, but because hybrids come after you no matter where you are in the system, deep striking is problematic and much harder then it would be otherwise. I did unlock the Mk I of these but never got to use them as intended because you really need Mk II or III to make deep strikes effective and I never had enough free knowledge to unlock those. These could be *very* powerful, but in very limited situations.

Neinzul Clusters: Now these are interesting. They are actually enough of a threat that I stopped trying to even deal with them normally, I just missile-ized them. I did deal with the first few systems worth normally and they were a pain. (Keep in mind I was playing a Cluster Bomber and a Viral Enthusiast). With the massive range on their gun, these became my primary target in a system, even before mass drives, fortresses or ion cannons. I'd say they are pretty close, especially in the anti-siege starships role. The swarms they spawn are also about right, they never actually overwhelmed me, but I never risked attacking one of these without most of my fighters present, which is how they should be working imo.

Siege Starships: Too nice. As soon as I'd gotten all the Clusters and Mass drivers down, I brought in my sieges, supported by my flagships and the system was done. 5 Mk Sieges and 3 Flagships could clean out a Mk IV system once I'd killed the Clusters and Mass Drivers. It did take a long time, but I didn't lose a ship. I'm not sure if this is working as intended, maybe make a range increment so Mk I sieges can outrage Mk I & II laser turrets, but Mk III laser turrets can match a Mk I siege's range? The concept of the siege's is good, just at the moment a single mark I siege can clear all the structures in a Mk IV system, except for a very select few, and I see that being OP for a Mk I ship of any type.

New guard posts: Good concept overall, but there was only 4 types of guard stations in my game. Counter Attack, Shields that made the Command Station immune, Long Range Missile because they could fire back on my sieges, and everything else. Because my sieges outranged all the other types, their differences didn't matter, it just took a few more or few less siege shots to kill them. I'm thinking the others could use some sort of on-death effect, maybe trigger a reinforcement wave, spawn a single powerful missile, or something else that's not just "guns, but mounted differently."

Mk IV and V systems: I don't know if it's due to the recent ship cap changes or because I'm used to a harder difficulty AI, but I found Mk IV and V systems to be easy to crack with the fleet size I had by that point. Especially with sieges. Probably not so much Mk IV worlds, but Mk V worlds need something. Maybe a faster reinforcement rate with your fleet in the system, give the AI home command station a more powerful version of the Cluster's main gun, just something to spice it up. I had more issues with the systems that the hybrid builders had fortified then I did with either AI homeworld.
Or just buff Mk V ships? I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think the latest round of ship cap reductions for the AI per system has made the late game Mk IV's and V's easier then intended.

Avenger: This is a nasty piece of work. Having said that, it's also pretty much balanced for what it is, a single ship that's overwhelmingly powerful.

Golems: Broken in economic terms. Even after capturing the second AI homeworld and it's 12 resource points, I could not afford the metal and crystal to operate one, let alone repair it. On their actual use I think there are about what they should be from the one engagement where I did get to use it, but they simply cost too much to use.

Rebel Colonies: Perhaps my favorite minor faction now. When one of these popped up, the game when from a slower paced "okay, hmmmm, that looks good, let's do this" to a "EVERYONE HERE NOW, ATTACK!!! GOGOGOGOGOGO" type of game play. It's a very nice change to mix things up while you rescue the rebel colony.

Younglings: Weak as they are and need something. Make them stronger, decrease their self-attrition rate, increase their ship cap, something. They aren't broken really, just weak.


Overall, a great game though. That avenger was nasty to say the least, but it's right where it should be. I ended up spending a lot of time activating a golem I ended up only using once and I was always rushing around after one of the minor factions as I had everything enabled.

More thoughts to come as I think of them.

D.

[keith.lamothe]

Congratulations!   7/7 makes for an easier "base" game, but with all those minor factions and AI plots thrown in it's quite a challenge.  The Avenger battle was pretty epic

Thanks for the various thoughts on balance/interestingness of stuff, I'm looking forward to finishing up this Unity port so I can get tweaking on those.

Hybrids: Not sure I can comment, I played the early game with the pre-nerf hybrids and found them quite hard, but broke through. Mid-game was on the patch where the AI was actually scrapping the hybrids, end game with what the hybrids are at today, my defenses were so powerful they essentially didn't matter any more.
Except for fortress systems. Due to how the map was split, with the first AI off by itself on the bottom, I gave the hybrids hours worth of gametime to build fortresses systems. I have a couple systems bordering my defensive line that have x30 Force Field Generators and x20 Neinzul Clusters that have been build by the hybrids. I'm not sure if that's a bad thing or not, I did give the hybrids 15-20 hours of gametime to fortress those systems, but the only way I can see to break that is Missile spam which would shoot your AIP up.
I'd be okay with leaving the hybrid builders as they are, if we could see hybrids from adjacent systems like we can a devourer so we could go "Oh, need to clean those hybrids out" or "I won't need that system, let them build".

Yea, there's a lot of stuff that needs to change with these, but it's good to see that they're basically working well.  One issue is that as you go through the galaxy and take stuff out they will actually lose strength (until their builders start planting more hybrid spawners, which they don't do with "advanced" off, though I'm not 100% sure they do it at all yet).  I think I'll make the AI homeworld get more spawners and the rest of the galaxy somewhat less so as to make it a bit harder to take out their core production capacity.

Fortresses: How much more can I wax eloquent about these? I'm going to try and play my next game without fortresses, but I think these have spoiled me. Depending on how my game without fortresses goes, I'm probably going to start making them my first or second unlock. They make defense so much easier.

Yea, I think they're at a good place, except perhaps they should cost more knowledge or something to assign an appropriate tradeoff to their awesomeness so that they aren't obvious-unlocks unless you're really getting pounded on the defensive.

Preservation Wardens: Ummm, no comment? It may have been because fortresses hard counter these so easily but I didn't even notice these. I'd stopped even bothering to switch to the system when the preservation wardens attacked it. They are supposed to get more powerful the more harvesters you have running and my gross metal (not net) when I won was only 800. Maybe they'd have been a worry if I had more systems?

Yea, they need to mix weasels in for one thing, and probably just need to produce more and more powerful ships.  But it sounds like their basic functionality is alright, just a magnitude problem.

Roaming Enclaves: Now these I noticed. They weren't powerful enough to actually affect anything, but they were closer then the preservation wardens, especially after their buff in the last patch. Getting 1000 younglings thrown in your face makes you stand up and take notice. With how weak younglings are, these are pretty okay, if younglings get a buff (as has been talked about in other threads), these may need further tweaking.

Yea, will keep that in mind re: youngling balance.  I need to fix some problems with the Enclave pathfinding, but other than that they seem pretty good.

Buildable Enclaves: A nice feature, but hard to use with hybrids enabled. These are designed to support deep strikes out of supply, but because hybrids come after you no matter where you are in the system, deep striking is problematic and much harder then it would be otherwise. I did unlock the Mk I of these but never got to use them as intended because you really need Mk II or III to make deep strikes effective and I never had enough free knowledge to unlock those. These could be *very* powerful, but in very limited situations.

Yea, combined with hybrids it's a bit tough to deep raid, but they can provide helpful punch to a normal attack by continually replenishing the youngling part of your fleet.  There's also the Mark IV version which costs an absurd quantity of K but obviate the need to find and capture an Advanced Factory (which, iirc, you didn't in this game).

Neinzul Clusters: Now these are interesting. They are actually enough of a threat that I stopped trying to even deal with them normally, I just missile-ized them. I did deal with the first few systems worth normally and they were a pain. (Keep in mind I was playing a Cluster Bomber and a Viral Enthusiast). With the massive range on their gun, these became my primary target in a system, even before mass drives, fortresses or ion cannons. I'd say they are pretty close, especially in the anti-siege starships role. The swarms they spawn are also about right, they never actually overwhelmed me, but I never risked attacking one of these without most of my fighters present, which is how they should be working imo.

Yea, the Cluster-Bomber is supposed to be a pretty respectable opponent as an AI Type, and the Viral Enthusiast more of an enhanced annoyance (which hopefully is all it is now with the range and damage nerf on those), so sounding good

Siege Starships: Too nice. As soon as I'd gotten all the Clusters and Mass drivers down, I brought in my sieges, supported by my flagships and the system was done. 5 Mk Sieges and 3 Flagships could clean out a Mk IV system once I'd killed the Clusters and Mass Drivers. It did take a long time, but I didn't lose a ship. I'm not sure if this is working as intended, maybe make a range increment so Mk I sieges can outrage Mk I & II laser turrets, but Mk III laser turrets can match a Mk I siege's range? The concept of the siege's is good, just at the moment a single mark I siege can clear all the structures in a Mk IV system, except for a very select few, and I see that being OP for a Mk I ship of any type.

Yea, the main problem with this isn't the sieges, I think, but the fact that the AI doesn't respond with sufficient aggression to take them out.  Or did it?  I imagine the hybrids did the best they could, but they can't be everywhere.  When you were sieging a guard post, would its guards come after you?  I'm thinking it might not be out of the question for firing sieges to provoke a tag-teamer-like response, but not sure.  As for the range, if anything I'll reduce it a bit; those longer range turrets are supposed to be able to shoot back.  The idea there is that you need to cover the sieges with forcefields; either teching up to Riot II+ or bringing ff generators which are slow and cut the siege's attack power by 3/4 (but doesn't make them useless, by far).

Mk IV and V systems: I don't know if it's due to the recent ship cap changes or because I'm used to a harder difficulty AI, but I found Mk IV and V systems to be easy to crack with the fleet size I had by that point... I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think the latest round of ship cap reductions for the AI per system has made the late game Mk IV's and V's easier then intended.

Yea, there have been a number of reports lately of those IV and V systems just not having the kick-in-the-teeth effect they used to, will need to rebalance with the ship caps some more (not by making them higher, necessarily, but the AI needs some more tools to counter-balance).

Avenger: This is a nasty piece of work. Having said that, it's also pretty much balanced for what it is, a single ship that's overwhelmingly powerful.

Yea, from your experience it sounds just about right; my intention is to replace a cannon or two with some more varied armament so that aoe-immune and super-long range stuff has more to fear, and to check on the pathfinding and logic and make sure it's being appropriately one-track-mind.

Golems: Broken in economic terms. Even after capturing the second AI homeworld and it's 12 resource points, I could not afford the metal and crystal to operate one, let alone repair it. On their actual use I think there are about what they should be from the one engagement where I did get to use it, but they simply cost too much to use.

I think I'm in agreement on the sheer energy cost being an issue, at least, but Chris has been handling the rebalancing here.

Rebel Colonies: Perhaps my favorite minor faction now. When one of these popped up, the game when from a slower paced "okay, hmmmm, that looks good, let's do this" to a "EVERYONE HERE NOW, ATTACK!!! GOGOGOGOGOGO" type of game play. It's a very nice change to mix things up while you rescue the rebel colony.

Yep, they sound like they're doing their job exactly right

Younglings: Weak as they are and need something. Make them stronger, decrease their self-attrition rate, increase their ship cap, something. They aren't broken really, just weak.

Yea, I'm inclined to make them build cheaper and hit harder; they're not actually supposed to be a normal swarm ship so they shouldn't live longer or come in greater numbers (from the human players), but it should be possible for an in-system space dock or human-enclave-starship to pump them out at absurd rates of speed and have them actually matter on the damage output side (nanoswarms aside, that's a niche ship).  Tigers are also worse off than the others in most cases.

Overall, a great game though.

Glad you enjoyed it, thanks for the AAR

[Spikey00]

Heh, congratulations to your victory Dazio. 

[Diazo]

Congratulations!  7/7 makes for an easier "base" game, but with all those minor factions and AI plots thrown in it's quite a challenge.  The Avenger battle was pretty epic

Thanks for the various thoughts on balance/interestingness of stuff, I'm looking forward to finishing up this Unity port so I can get tweaking on those.

Hybrids: Not sure I can comment, I played the early game with the pre-nerf hybrids and found them quite hard, but broke through. Mid-game was on the patch where the AI was actually scrapping the hybrids, end game with what the hybrids are at today, my defenses were so powerful they essentially didn't matter any more.
Except for fortress systems. Due to how the map was split, with the first AI off by itself on the bottom, I gave the hybrids hours worth of gametime to build fortresses systems. I have a couple systems bordering my defensive line that have x30 Force Field Generators and x20 Neinzul Clusters that have been build by the hybrids. I'm not sure if that's a bad thing or not, I did give the hybrids 15-20 hours of gametime to fortress those systems, but the only way I can see to break that is Missile spam which would shoot your AIP up.
I'd be okay with leaving the hybrid builders as they are, if we could see hybrids from adjacent systems like we can a devourer so we could go "Oh, need to clean those hybrids out" or "I won't need that system, let them build".

Yea, there's a lot of stuff that needs to change with these, but it's good to see that they're basically working well.  One issue is that as you go through the galaxy and take stuff out they will actually lose strength (until their builders start planting more hybrid spawners, which they don't do with "advanced" off, though I'm not 100% sure they do it at all yet).  I think I'll make the AI homeworld get more spawners and the rest of the galaxy somewhat less so as to make it a bit harder to take out their core production capacity.

I think I'm going to try dual hybrids with advanced off next game to see where these are at. Hybrids are really only a threat early to mid game, by mid to late game, you have enough stuff around that it's the entrenched systems the builder build that are the only real threat from hybrids. And since I haven't seen Hybrids in the early game in 4 or 5 patches.....

Fortresses: How much more can I wax eloquent about these? I'm going to try and play my next game without fortresses, but I think these have spoiled me. Depending on how my game without fortresses goes, I'm probably going to start making them my first or second unlock. They make defense so much easier.

Yea, I think they're at a good place, except perhaps they should cost more knowledge or something to assign an appropriate tradeoff to their awesomeness so that they aren't obvious-unlocks unless you're really getting pounded on the defensive.

How about keeping the existing fortresses, but boosting them by a Mark (with a bit of a knowledge increase) and making a new, weaker Mk I fortress? That's perhaps too big a change at this point and maybe redundant with the turret changes X is talking about, but I often found myself wishing for a unit I could just build to secure a secondary system without having to build a ball of turrets.

Preservation Wardens: Ummm, no comment? It may have been because fortresses hard counter these so easily but I didn't even notice these. I'd stopped even bothering to switch to the system when the preservation wardens attacked it. They are supposed to get more powerful the more harvesters you have running and my gross metal (not net) when I won was only 800. Maybe they'd have been a worry if I had more systems?

Yea, they need to mix weasels in for one thing, and probably just need to produce more and more powerful ships.  But it sounds like their basic functionality is alright, just a magnitude problem.

Ya, with these scaling based on harvester numbers they should be very weak early game and pounding you late game.

Roaming Enclaves: Now these I noticed. They weren't powerful enough to actually affect anything, but they were closer then the preservation wardens, especially after their buff in the last patch. Getting 1000 younglings thrown in your face makes you stand up and take notice. With how weak younglings are, these are pretty okay, if younglings get a buff (as has been talked about in other threads), these may need further tweaking.

Yea, will keep that in mind re: youngling balance.  I need to fix some problems with the Enclave pathfinding, but other than that they seem pretty good.

Agreed that they are good as-is, if the younglings get a buff as mentioned below, these are probably right where they should be.

Buildable Enclaves: A nice feature, but hard to use with hybrids enabled. These are designed to support deep strikes out of supply, but because hybrids come after you no matter where you are in the system, deep striking is problematic and much harder then it would be otherwise. I did unlock the Mk I of these but never got to use them as intended because you really need Mk II or III to make deep strikes effective and I never had enough free knowledge to unlock those. These could be *very* powerful, but in very limited situations.

Yea, combined with hybrids it's a bit tough to deep raid, but they can provide helpful punch to a normal attack by continually replenishing the youngling part of your fleet.  There's also the Mark IV version which costs an absurd quantity of K but obviate the need to find and capture an Advanced Factory (which, iirc, you didn't in this game).

Never even found a Mk IV factory with my scouts. Considering I scouted something like only 1/3 of the map not too surprising. But I never even though about going down the tree to unlock Mk IV enclaves, with how few systems I took, I didn't have enough K as it was.

Neinzul Clusters: Now these are interesting. They are actually enough of a threat that I stopped trying to even deal with them normally, I just missile-ized them. I did deal with the first few systems worth normally and they were a pain. (Keep in mind I was playing a Cluster Bomber and a Viral Enthusiast). With the massive range on their gun, these became my primary target in a system, even before mass drives, fortresses or ion cannons. I'd say they are pretty close, especially in the anti-siege starships role. The swarms they spawn are also about right, they never actually overwhelmed me, but I never risked attacking one of these without most of my fighters present, which is how they should be working imo.

Yea, the Cluster-Bomber is supposed to be a pretty respectable opponent as an AI Type, and the Viral Enthusiast more of an enhanced annoyance (which hopefully is all it is now with the range and damage nerf on those), so sounding good

Yes, the Viral Clusters were actually not a big deal at all, it was really the other clusters I worries about because they deserved the worry. This sounds like it's exactly what you were going for.

Siege Starships: Too nice. As soon as I'd gotten all the Clusters and Mass drivers down, I brought in my sieges, supported by my flagships and the system was done. 5 Mk Sieges and 3 Flagships could clean out a Mk IV system once I'd killed the Clusters and Mass Drivers. It did take a long time, but I didn't lose a ship. I'm not sure if this is working as intended, maybe make a range increment so Mk I sieges can outrage Mk I & II laser turrets, but Mk III laser turrets can match a Mk I siege's range? The concept of the siege's is good, just at the moment a single mark I siege can clear all the structures in a Mk IV system, except for a very select few, and I see that being OP for a Mk I ship of any type.

Yea, the main problem with this isn't the sieges, I think, but the fact that the AI doesn't respond with sufficient aggression to take them out.  Or did it?  I imagine the hybrids did the best they could, but they can't be everywhere.  When you were sieging a guard post, would its guards come after you?  I'm thinking it might not be out of the question for firing sieges to provoke a tag-teamer-like response, but not sure.  As for the range, if anything I'll reduce it a bit; those longer range turrets are supposed to be able to shoot back.  The idea there is that you need to cover the sieges with forcefields; either teching up to Riot II+ or bringing ff generators which are slow and cut the siege's attack power by 3/4 (but doesn't make them useless, by far).

No, it was not until the guard post was destroyed that the ships at said post would free themselves to attack my fleet. One thing I don't think I was clear on, I cleared some structures before bringing my sieges in. If there were any (non-viral) Clusters, Mass Drivers or Long Range Missile Guard Posts, I didn't bring the sieges into the system until those were down. It was not a matter of warp my fleet, clear the warp point, bring my sieges in. If I had tried that, my sieges would have died fast. I did have to prep each system before I could bring the sieges in. Now, where there's only 3 structure types that I have to clear before bringing the sieges in I'm not sure if that really changes anything.
  

Mk IV and V systems: I don't know if it's due to the recent ship cap changes or because I'm used to a harder difficulty AI, but I found Mk IV and V systems to be easy to crack with the fleet size I had by that point... I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think the latest round of ship cap reductions for the AI per system has made the late game Mk IV's and V's easier then intended.

Yea, there have been a number of reports lately of those IV and V systems just not having the kick-in-the-teeth effect they used to, will need to rebalance with the ship caps some more (not by making them higher, necessarily, but the AI needs some more tools to counter-balance).

Ya, I'm not sure what the changes should be. I'm thinking if the turret changes go through, the Mk IV and V systems get their turrets caps reduced less then the lower Mk systems? Still need some sort of mechanic change though, when you attack you aren't fighting the system, you are fighting that guard post, then that guard post, then that one.......

Avenger: This is a nasty piece of work. Having said that, it's also pretty much balanced for what it is, a single ship that's overwhelmingly powerful.

Yea, from your experience it sounds just about right; my intention is to replace a cannon or two with some more varied armament so that aoe-immune and super-long range stuff has more to fear, and to check on the pathfinding and logic and make sure it's being appropriately one-track-mind.

Heh. Any changes to the avenger would be interesting but also not change much. You are throwing your entire empire at the thing as it is to stop it, that's not going to change.

Golems: Broken in economic terms. Even after capturing the second AI homeworld and it's 12 resource points, I could not afford the metal and crystal to operate one, let alone repair it. On their actual use I think there are about what they should be from the one engagement where I did get to use it, but they simply cost too much to use.

I think I'm in agreement on the sheer energy cost being an issue, at least, but Chris has been handling the rebalancing here.

Ya, something needs to be done. I keep harping on this because I spent something like 3 hours game-time to bring it online just to find out I can't use it.  

Rebel Colonies: Perhaps my favorite minor faction now. When one of these popped up, the game when from a slower paced "okay, hmmmm, that looks good, let's do this" to a "EVERYONE HERE NOW, ATTACK!!! GOGOGOGOGOGO" type of game play. It's a very nice change to mix things up while you rescue the rebel colony.

Yep, they sound like they're doing their job exactly right

Agreed!  

Younglings: Weak as they are and need something. Make them stronger, decrease their self-attrition rate, increase their ship cap, something. They aren't broken really, just weak.

Yea, I'm inclined to make them build cheaper and hit harder; they're not actually supposed to be a normal swarm ship so they shouldn't live longer or come in greater numbers (from the human players), but it should be possible for an in-system space dock or human-enclave-starship to pump them out at absurd rates of speed and have them actually matter on the damage output side (nanoswarms aside, that's a niche ship).  Tigers are also worse off than the others in most cases.

So they will get something, good.

Overall, a great game though.

Glad you enjoyed it, thanks for the AAR

My pleasure.

Will probably be a few days and a few messing around games before I start my next big one. That last one was only 2 1/2 weeks from start to finish.

I'll still be around of course.  

D.

[Spikey00]

I hope you don't play alone all the time--I'm already getting a bit tired with my solo--I wouldn't know how you would go on about playing solo all the time!  :\