Game Start! 3.182 beta feedback stuff

[Diazo]

Yes, got called away from my game Tuesday, had to cut it short.

Still trying to rebuild my fleet. Went ahead and built all the resistance frigates and fighter/bombers to bring them across, then discovered I can't load them in transports. :/

There's still 3 AI systems between the system with the rebel colony and my own systems, it was 6 hops away when the rebel colony spawned so it's way out on it's own.

Started the rebuild of my own ships, but only got about 15% rebuilt when I had to quite.

D.

[Diazo]

TL,DR: Saturday game in progress.

Patched to 3.189

Wow, Preservation wardens just threw a 1000 ship wave at me, that's different.
It was a system with 2 forts in it so it wasn't actually dangerous, but that's a big change from the 100 or so waves previously.
Mining golems, grrrrr.
And wardens are actually a threat, lost a fortress to the second preservation warden wave. Well, second 1000 ship wave, they still throw tiny waves at me pretty frequently.
Wait, that's the roaming enclaves throwing 1000 ship waves at me, don't really see any changes to the wardens.

Speed 1 outside the system boundary is low. You do need to operate out there occasionally with the Mauraders and Mining golems.


 ---Post Start

Nothing really of note yet, I've started on one of the Mk IV's next to an ai Homeworld. It's got 2 forts but only a single Ion Mk I. The other option has only a single fort but 3 ions, including a Mk IV. Redundant as I don't have a Mk IV factory really, but it works on my fleet just as effectively.

Both planets also have Mass Drivers and Warhead interceptors. Going to just have to chip away at it.

Interestingly, there's no Shield Guard post and the command station is right by my entry warp point. Normally I'd just pop that and clean the system up, but I don't want to alert the homeworld yet.
Well, alert as much since my fleet does while it's in system.

Wow, I'll have to start paying attention to preservation wardens again, they just sent a 1000 ship wave in my direction. Fortresses still owned it, but that's an actual threat now.

I'm thinking I may conquer some planets for resources after this first homeworld dies. I only own 11 planets and it's taking too long to rebuild my fleet. I am taking pretty bad losses on this Mk IV system but I see no other way to crack it.

And both fortresses are down, but I lost every fighter and bomber I sent in. Rebuilding again.....

13:09:00 CPA warning just came in, I should be okay.

CPA's threat is down to 300. Fortresses really do make defense easy.
The knowledge spent on them is hurting my homeworld assult though. I don't have a lot unlocked so I'm sending in bombers/fighters alone with an EMP to clear the warp point.
Mass Driver on the other side of the system so starships would just die and that's a lot of my knowledge useless at the moment.

The second mining golem just came up also.

what?! PSKHFP:khfpiuwbibesdipuPIPIUPIAUFPIAUSDGVPAFDG[B9OAEW4[N0GENA9RGBN[DISUBFNIDZS;UVBPAIEWRNGO'AEING;OAER G'OAEINGPIAUFBDVPUYZSBVPUI;ABG IPAEGIUPAERB[AEOIN[OERUGBAEIO'UGBA[I'OSJG A['DSOUGIBEA[IPUGBAEIW;PGUBAEI;GUBEA;UIGNEBAR;GNAEWR;AEWFomgwtfbbq!!!!!  

The mining golem is on my system with the rebel colony in it, this is going to suck. GRRRRRR. I can't afford the 100AIP and my fleet is 8 hops away doing a homeworld assult and 3 of those hops are AI system still that I bypassed. Which means scrapping and rebuilding in that system and another dely on my AI homeworld assult.

Well, attack with insufficient forces so they die and rebuild in the Rebel Colony system I guess.
Oh, only 40 million HP? Did these things get a nerf in one of the golem rebalances?

And it looks like fighters are my best option against the mining golem.

Another oddity is that my threat has been stuck at 340 for 15=20 minutes now. It's the last of that CPA I'm pretty sure, but it doesn't take the ships that long to reach me I would think.

Alright, 342 fighters, mostly Mk II and III vs Mining Golem: Round 1, FIGHT!
Well, eventually, Speed down to 1, ugh.

Okay, the speed to 1 is excessive. Because my spacedock is down at the bottom of my system and the mining golem moves at 6, my speed 1 fighters could not make the turn to fire on the golem.
I understand the need for the slow down outside the system, but 1? With the mauraders and mining golem spawning so far out, we do need to operate out there at times.

Okay, preservation wardens are a threat now. Another 1000 ship wave, including weasels. My fortress just went boom.
The fighters I'd left on defense got there before I lost anything else, but that's still a nasty surprise.

Okay, my next wave of fighters was actually able to engage, mining golem's at 90% hp.

And Round 3 is going to be a Fortress Mk II vs Mining Golem.
Once again, the fortresses reign's supreme. It was a Mk II fortress mind you, but it was doing about 500k damage a salvo, the mining golem only has 40million HP. The golem didn't last long.

Back to my homeworld assult, at least I got a decent fleet rebuilt while fighting that golem.

Wow, an enclave starship just warped in and spawned 1000 younglings. These must be the 1000 ship waves I'm seeing, not the preservation wardens.

Odd, just noticed something with Neinzul Rocketry Corps. The first mining golem destroyed a system with a Rockety Silo. The silo survived being immune to nukes but it seems confused being in a destroyed solar system. It's still spawning rockets, but they just sit on the silo, they don't come to attack me even though I own an adjacent system.

Alright, after the delay dealing with the mining golem, I'm just going to brute force this Mk IV so I've popped the command station.

Tried to sneak build a command station to capture the mass driver so I can bring my sieges in. Missile guard posts have a long range. 

And that will have to be it for now, I may get a chance to pick this up this evening, so close to that first AI Homeworld.

D.

[keith.lamothe]

Ah, I'm sure the AI will enjoy a nice lunch

Btw, just checking, is this on 3.189?

[keith.lamothe]

Glad that the roaming enclaves are giving a decent showing for themselves now

The preservation wardens probably won't be launching overly big attacks unless you get a lot of harvesters (sounds like you're going to be increasing that number) and/or you let lots of them get away alive.  We'll see how they do the rest of this game and for other folks, it's pretty simple to tweak them upward threat-wise (with a bias towards keeping them as-is at low harvester count, since they seem plenty bad enough then).

[Diazo]

Also keep in mind I have fortresses all over the place and those are pretty much an absolute hard counter to younglings.

I would want to see feedback on preservation wardens going up against players without fortresses before I would want to see them buffed too much.

D.

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, I would want to see that too, though since fortresses are always available and the wardens are optional I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that a player who really ticks off the wardens will  need to unlock at least MkI fortresses if they want to manage the problem well.  But it shouldn't be a hard requirement, for sure.

[Diazo]

TL,DR: Saturday game continued.

Popped the LRM guard posts and got my command station built which means the mass driver is mine, so here come the sieges.
However, there is still a Neinzul Bomber Cluster V to deal with before I can clear the entire system.

As this is now a friendly system, I'm going to transport rush it. At a range of 83000, I'd lose a lot of ships just crossing that distance normally.

.... That Neinzul Bomber Cluster Mk V just did 80% damage to a Light Starship with one shot, 25% damage to a flagship with one shot. That's at least equal to a mass driver, ouch.

1500 bombers just spawned from this Bomber Cluster!!!!
Two command stations die before I can adjust my forces.

Nasty, nasty surprise that was, especially their speed (150). With all the high speed units around, I'm starting to think the military command station needs the "slow enemies, slightly speed up allies" buff and the logistics station need a "super speed allies" buff and produces 8 metal/crystal or something.

The "slow down enemies buff" is becoming to important with all the super-fast younglings flying around.

Anyways, with that bomber cluster out of the way, my sieges go to work clearing the system.

And I finally get a scout into the AI Homeworld.
Think I got lucky on the guard posts, no counter attack and 4 spire shield. High HP, but not a great attack to hurt me with.
2 fortresses though. At least the mass driver is close to my entry warp point, can pop it with minimal difficulty.

Hmmm, this other system has a broken artillery golem only 2 hops from the AI homeworld.
I think I'm going to go capture that, should be very useful on this homeworld assult.

After clearing the Mk IV adjacent to the homeworld, AIP is down to 204 from all the data centers.

And this golem wasn't worth it. I've committed too much now to not use the golem, but it's not worth the effort I don't think, I was only running an energy surplus of 100k or so, need 600k for the golem to activate. Crash building energy reactors now.....

[keith.lamothe]

However, there is still a Neinzul Bomber Cluster V to deal with before I can clear the entire system.

Wait for it... wait for it...

1500 bombers just spawned from this Bomber Cluster!!!!

Boom!

Yea, the core versions of the clusters can cause some really serious problems, which why it's good they only show up on the AI homeworld and adjacent core worlds.  The bomber variant is only used on 47% or so of those, too; the normal variant produces core younglings (the bombers are roughly mark III equivalent) but fewer of them and a mix of types rather than pure bombers.

My suggestion for dealing with those is a lot of lightning turrets on the probable-target wormholes; with those using the staggered-fire mechanic they should get very good coverage on the bombers (though have to be careful about the bombers wiping the turrets in extremely short order).

Logistics stations help too, as you note; they are very helpful for dealing with younglings, though not every game has younglings (as AI units).

[keith.lamothe]

By the way, it takes a Mk V bomber cluster about 30 minutes (iirc) to go from empty to full, so it can't rapid-fire waves like that.

[Diazo]

Ya, I'm playing VS a Viral Enthusiast and a Cluster Bomber though so I've seen a lot of them.

For where it was, the 1500 ships was not out of line at all being that it was a Mk IV next to a homeworld but it's still a shock the first time you see that. It was even worse because it was an in-and-out to just get the Cluster Bomber structure to clear the way for my siege, only had a part of my fleet close enough to help out.

Anways;

----Saturday game continues here and is done for now.

As I committed to this artillery golem still waiting for my energy reactors to build, including the zenith I just grabbed off a trader.

And another rebel colony just popped up. Only 4 hops away through Mk I and II systems. I'll go deal with this while I wait for my energy balance to increase. The 55 metal/crystal will be nice also.

And a cross planet attack. Lots of stuff happening all at once here.

And a cluster of 5 neinzul cluster structures of varying types in a system I've previously cleared? Are the Hybrid Builders enabled now?


I'm getting closer finishing this game but I've got a ways to go still.

D.

[keith.lamothe]

And a cluster of 5 neinzul cluster structures of varying types in a system I've previously cleared? Are the Hybrid Builders enabled now?

Yea, they've been enabled for several prereleases.  How many of those are viral clusters next to wormholes?

[Diazo]

I'll have to look.

The cluster that made me notice was in a system I'd previously partially neutered in my deep strike to capture the first rebel colony. I came back through it to the second rebel colony that's just spawned and noticed 5 Cluster structures (of various types) off on their own kind of in the middle of nowhere that had been built.

It's only a Mk I or II system, so even the 5 of them are not actually a threat at this point, but something I noticed.

D.

[keith.lamothe]

Well, actually the Hybrid builders are not restricted by the mark level of the planet on what they can build, but even a top-tier builder can only place like a MkIII cluster (iirc), and you're probably dealing with ones that can plant II's at most.

[Diazo]

Ummm.

Wow, do the hybrids pick a 'fortress' system or something?

In a Mk I system I had previously mostly neutered, only leaving 2 guard posts off on the edge and the command station up, I now come back to it needing to deep strike past it again.

It now has:
6x Neinzul Clusters (I did leave one of these up my last time through)
5x hybrids (at least one Mk IV hybrid) (Were none last time.)
9x Force Field Generators (Again, none left last time I was here.)
10x Hybrid Module Factories (None last time.)
25x Core Turrets (None last time.)
25x or more Mk III turrets of various types. (Remember, Mk I system)

Do Hybrid builders ever leave the system they assign themselves? I have left this system alone for several hours gametime now so they had the time to build all this, but this is still a serious roadblock now.
Note that those Neinzul Clusters are all on top of each other, I'm looking at 3k swarmers spawning if I get close at all.

I'm seriously stumped. Note that I can bring at best 50% of my fleet to attack this system, I have serveral worlds near the AI homeworld that I'm defending with my fleet instead of turrets.

I'd look at nuking it if Clusters and Hybrids were not both immune to it, as it is, lighting missile spam incoming.

D.

[keith.lamothe]

Wow, do the hybrids pick a 'fortress' system or something?

Not as such, but the emergent interaction of how it answers the questions "what worlds are eligible" and "what worlds are valuable" can tend towards this.  It can be a major pain in the rear if you try to maintain disjoint territories and aren't don't "clean out" the hybrids if they try to build it up.

It now has:
6x Neinzul Clusters (I did leave one of these up my last time through)
5x hybrids (at least one Mk IV hybrid) (Were none last time.)
9x Force Field Generators (Again, none left last time I was here.)
10x Hybrid Module Factories (None last time.)
25x Core Turrets (None last time.)
25x or more Mk III turrets of various types. (Remember, Mk I system)

Do Hybrid builders ever leave the system they assign themselves?

To my knowledge the "build structure on planet X" mission only lasts until the construction module has been deployed, and then they re-execute the planet-picking logic.  But depending on the circumstances this particular world could be really appealing to them, or one of very few planets that are eligible at all, or both.

I have left this system alone for several hours gametime now so they had the time to build all this, but this is still a serious roadblock now.

Sounds like the builders have been doing their job well

Note that those Neinzul Clusters are all on top of each other,

Yea, they basically pick one of the guard posts or wormholes or the command stations; though they have logic for placing something like an HBC so that it covers two wormholes (putting it out in the middle of nowhere).  This has the effect of making heavily neutured systems more likely to get those kinds of super-stacks.  I think they should have some chance of planting a new guard post if the planet has less than original_count+1 or something like that (though I don't think we actually track the original number right now).

I'm looking at 3k swarmers spawning if I get close at all.

Are the clusters all viral clusters?  Or do you mean "youngling" instead of "swarmer"?

I'd look at nuking it if Clusters and Hybrids were not both immune to it, as it is, lighting missile spam incoming.

Yea, lightning warheads are probably a better bet here, though the nuke would help clear a lot of the stuff out.