Game Start! 3.182 beta feedback stuff

[Diazo]

Yes, they are all Viral Clusters, 2 Mk II, 4 Mk I.

---Sunday Game Start (In progress, see next post)

I'm now bashing my way into the system, but I have question on lighting warheads.

I assume the circle shown on a warhead when you hold Z down is the explosion radius correct?

Because of how close the cluster structures are together, I can get them all in the radius of a Lighting Mk II, except I blow it up and they take no damage and they are not tagged Immune to AOE.

I then built a Mk III lighting to take a Mk II cluster out and giving the missile a right-click attack on the Cluster, the Mk III does kill that structure, and that structure alone.

I know you've mentioned in another thread something about the Cluster structures handling AoE differently because they do spawn when aggro'd, but I would figure them being immune to lighting missiles is not intended.

Using a Mk II lighting missile, a direct target attack does destroy the cluster, but I held Z down this time and the missiles "attack range" covered all remaining structures, but only the one I directly right-clicked took any damage.

Alright, too many lighting missiles later the clusters are down and I can actually operate in the system without taking massive losses.

That got my sieges in, I've broken the system now. Still just planning to neuter it though.

[keith.lamothe]

Ah, yea, sounds like a residual thing from the virals being non-autotargeted; basically I changed aoe damage to not splash-damage things that ships don't normally auto-target, as otherwise you could wind up popping command stations accidentally because your grenade launchers were shooting at its guards, etc.

This is one of those tricky things where it's not easily obvious what the player wants; basically I'll just need "ShouldGenerallyNotBeDamagedByAOE" (for viral clusters and the like) and "ShouldREALLYNotBeDamagedByAOE" (for command staitons, etc) and "ShouldDamageThingsByAOEThatAreNotGenerallyDamagedByAOE" (for lightning warheads, etc).  I'll probably shorten those somewhat in the actual code

As for those 6 clusters, mark I clusters should only store about 7 swarmers (if I'm reading this code right) and mark II about 37.  So they're more dangerous as guns than spawners, unless there's a bug making the code numbers wrong, or the initial spawn of swarmers manages to replicate before the exterminators get them.

[keith.lamothe]

Another thing that is very weird is that those construction modules are not supposed to be able to result in viral clusters, just normal ones.  And the AI Types can't influence this because their code is entirely in mapgen.  Curioser and Curioser.

[Diazo]

TL,DR: Sunday night game finished.

Just went back and checked, they are "Neinzul Cluster -AI 1 - Neinzul Viral Enthusiast" so no, they are not Viral Clusters, I missread the AI type I guess.

Even with the system broken, I'm running out of time and I'm still two hops from the Rebel Outpost.

Next system and 4 clusters and 6 hybrids now. Not easy either.

And the system with the rebel outpost has 3 more clusters.

50 minutes left, this is going to be close.

28 minutes left, sieges are about to range on the command post in the system with the rebel colony.

ARGH!!!! ALARM POST!!!!!!  

Ugh. I had enough issues scouting this far out that I didn't get a couple of adjacent systems scouted before popping the command post. It's 'only' 400 threat from the alarm post. I can deal.

And with 19 minutes to go on the cloak, I get my command station up, at 18:59:00 gametime.

Alright, deep breath time. Got my command station, FFG and a few turrets up in the second rebel colony system.

Let's finish getting this golem online and take this homeworld out.

Well, getting my deep strike fleet back will be easy, the survivors fit into one transport. Going to have to unlock some turrets with the knowledge though to leave any sort of defense behind.

Tigers are still weak. Friendly Enclave spawns a bunch on my command station, they don't make it out of the system.

Spacedock is up and there's a Special Forces Alarm post right next door. Bleh.

Anyways, I don't have to take another system next to the alarm post, so I can ignore it.

Back to Z-gen building for this golem. Net incoming of -2500 metal and crystal.  

Hehe, a roaming enclave just dumped out a full wave of 1000 younglings. The devourer golem right there said "Thank you!"

The 3rd mining golem just popped up, once again on my system. Fortress should be able to deal with it though.

And the AI likes this system also, and maruaders too! Busy system this is.

Yay! Z-gen up and running!

And it's CPA time again. 1800 ships this time.

CPA dealt with by my fixed defenses, I may still be turtling too much. :/

Mining golem still wandering towards me.

Artillery Golem ONLINE!!!!

Time for some Golem VS Golem combat! Going to try shooting the Mining golem with my new artillery golem.

BOO!!! Only did 25% damage to the mining golem for a 20% self-inflicted wound.  

Ahh well, at least I know how it works now.

Mining golem is down.

I think this artillery golem is too expensive, period. I'm running +800 gross in both metal and crystal, with one Z-gen and nothing being built, my energy reactors put me at a net loss of resources.
I own 14 planets so it's not like my empire is small or anything at this point.

I'll look at the golem some more tomorrow, but I'm done for the night now.

/wave

D.

[Diazo]

TL,DR: Monday night game finished.

Gametime

Still debating what to do about the artillery golem. Going to pop a bunch of Data Centers with it in the other Mk IV adjacent to this homeworld instead of raiding them.

After that, the golem will probably just sit, at least until I cap the AI homeworld, 12 resource points in there. I'm hoping that gives me enough economy to actually repair the golem.

Well, the golem is very nice, just pot-shotted a couple data centers but now I'll have to repair it.

At this point, it's going to be a game of take a couple pot shots, repair the golem, take a couple pot shots, repair the golem, repeat. The high cost of the golem means it's the golem or my fleet I use, I can't support the golem with my fleet, at least not yet.

Or not, golems cost too much to repair, going to assult this homeworld the normal way.

EMP missile and a wave of bombers get the two fortresses, that spidernest is next.

Spider nest is down, too far though, tractor turrets came back up, none of my attack got out. I was only using fighters/bombers so not my entire fleet, but it still hurts.

Slowly picking the system apart, 3 guard posts down now.

Achievement! Persistent - 24 hour campaign.  

Mass Driver and Warhead Interceptor are both down, the only ion in the system is a Mk II. I was also able to get the warp point guard posts thanks to the emp so we're moving along.

Bug? Engineers are not assisting my space dock, just sitting in space. I have the auto-frd node built for them. They are auto-repairing damaged units as they come in though.

And I've got enough cleared I can bring my sieges in. Time for them to go to work.

Ya, siege's are a little OP at the moment. A Mk I Siege one-shots most turrets on this homeworld.

Homeworld's down to 2 guardposts and another CPA warning just came

CPA's on it's way.

And first AI Command is down!   Here comes the avenger!  

Odd, what's the Avenger's pathing logic? It's not coming straight at my homeworlds, does it try to clean sweep my colonies first?

Anyways, the avenger is about to hit my first roadblock I've set up. My fleet on the AI homeworld and the 2 colonies it's munched up already have the sheild down to 85%.

Fortress Mk I + Mk II and 5x HBC Mk II as soon as it exits the wormhole.

Well, the HBC were a failure, I need cannon fodder in front to use those.
The fortresses got the force field to 65% though.

NOOOOoooo..... my zenith power generator! The avenger also just got the artillery golem, not that I was going to use it again. :/

Second roadblock time, 2 forts and some HBC again, but with some cannon fodder in front, maybe the HBC will get more then one shot off.

.......... wow. That avenger is, umm..... Took the avenger 7 hops to reach my homeworld, it spent 6 of those hops under continuous fire from fortresses, most hops with both a Mk I and a Mk II fortress.

Only got the avenger's shield to 10% before my command station went boom.

I killed the AI command station at 24:59:09, I lost my Home Command at 25:29:06. That's at least 20 minutes of continuous fire from fortresses on the avenger and I didn't get the shield down.

Going to make another try tomorrow, I have a save from just before I killed the AI command station.

But just, wow. This is my first time seeing an Avenger and it makes the golems I was complaining about look like weak little tin cans.

Anyways, that's it for tonight. Already have some ideas for alternate strategies on the Avenger to try, but it'll have to wait.

/wave

D.



edit as per below: ya, going to post a SS once I finish with markers showing what was what. I don't have an easy way to upload pictures so I'm not doing it every post.

[Fruden]

 This is an interesting to read post but.... needs more pictures!!!

 Anyway, i have to agree about the golems, the energy costs and repair costs are completely crazy, even with 10 worlds and 1 zenith generator. In the very few games i activated some since their recent changes i ended up putting them on low power and leaving them to rot in a safe corner

[Spikey00]

I'm glad the avenger sounds like it's not too bad in realistic gameplay terms.

[Diazo]

Ummm, maybe?

The big chunks at the front taken out of the avenger's shield was the remnants of my fleet assisting my fortresses. Without that fleet support, the fortresses were not enough. :/

I think it's doable, the biggest thing was I killed the AI command station when I had maybe 5k metal and 5k crystal in reserve. Wait to get a stockpile of resources and I'll see how I do.

D.

edit: Just because I want to see what I'm up against, and since my defense is based around fortresses.

Avenger: 600,000,000 HP (400 million force field, 200 million hull)
Fortress Mk I: 2000x60 Attack, 3.0 sec reload. (No bonuses): 40,000 dps
Fortress Mk II: 3500x80 Attack, 3.0 sec reload. (No bonuses): 93,333 dps
Total DPS from fortresses: 133,333 dps.
Assuming continuous fire from both a Mk I and Mk II fortress: 75 minutes to destroy an avenger.

I'm going to have to get my fleet involved in this also to destroy this blasted thing.

edit the 2nd: Fortresses actually have a 2x bonus I think, which is still 32.5 minutes though.

[Fruden]

 For the pictures, you can attach up to 4 (not too big, so jpeg, not png) per post with the options at the bottom of the post screen, no need to use a picture host at all here!

 As for the avenger, heavy beams shoot right through but don't damage it at all. If you've got impulses, polarizers, munitions boosters, and to a lesser degree bombers it helps a bunch but mostly it's a matter of swarming it with giant piles of ships. Also, for some reason, if you directly target the components on the avenger lots of shots will disregard the force field and destroy them anyway. It helps a lot if you can get rid of its heavy beams in the first minute or two, unless that was fixed recently. Laser turrets were the only turrets that seemed to do alright against it because of their minimum hit chance and high health.

 I also liked to have 1-2 mobile repairs with a cloaker following the fleet since the avenger switches targets and its possible to fix some of the ships back up (especially bombers and other high hp ships obviously). And for its pathing, from the map select the ai homeworld its on, and hover over your homeworld to figure out its path. Weirdly enough, if you select your homeworld and hover over the ai homeworld, the path is not always the same, and it uses the path from the ai homeworld to player homeworld perspective.

 Good luck and keep us posted!

edit: mines work pretty well too

[Diazo]

Part of my issue is I found the AI homeworld early, I only have 28 of 80 planets even scouted and I've got attack paths to both homeworlds already.

So I really low on knowledge and I took Youngling Commandos as my special ship to try them out.

So no fancy toys which means I'll be throwing ship after ship at the avenger. I'm hoping bombers get their bonus against the avenger's force field, that would be huge. Don't even have MRS unlocked yet, let alone cloakers.

My options are Forts Mk I & II, Fighters Mk III, bombers Mk III, Siege Starships Mk I, MLRS Turrets Mk III, Missile Turrets Mk II.

I have HBC Mk II unlocked also, but they don't do anything you say?

As for the path thing, it is somewhat random. I had a single planet in a dead end cul-de-sac that the avenger went down, nuked my command station, turned around and went back towards my homeworld.

I've got 2 or 3 alternate strategies I'll be trying tommorow.

D.

[keith.lamothe]

Ah, the Avenger.  Yes, if you aren't seriously prepared it eat you, and probably not even for dinner   Sounds like you qualified as at least a decent lunch, though.

Sorry about the HBC's-not-hitting-Avengers thing, not sure what's going on there, will endeavor to fix that once we're out of unity port mode (theoretically before, but Chris is going to be on paternity leave soon and I don't want to ask him push any new versions unless it's something critical).

But yea, there are tons of things you can do to improve your chances; fyi anything with a bonus against turrets gets that same bonus against any ship module (including those onboard forcefield generators).  Sieges will probably do fairly nice damage, though good luck keeping them alive.

[keith.lamothe]

Oh, and the pathing thing really is trying to take a straight line path to your homeworld (exactly the same logic as the evil-dysons), but it's not impossible that it would detour a bit.

[Diazo]

Ya, my siege's were in range when it spawned, I think they did most of the initial damage while the rest of my fleet played decoy.

After that, I had no resources to rebuild them so.......

This next game's going to fun.

D.

[Diazo]

TL,DR: Tuesday night continued next post.

Alright, me vs. the Avenger.

After my stunning defeat last night, time to go and crunch the numbers before I actually engage and also check what the HBC actually does.

First, the HBC *does* damage the Avenger, but not as the tooltip says. HBC Mk I says '100% chance for 100,000' damage on the Avenger Shield Module as well as the actual hull. In actually test firing however, the HBC only does 50,000 damage to the shield. I had nothing else firing on the Avenger at the time so I'm pretty sure about this.

Except that upon reloading and trying again, the HBC now does nothing to the shield.

Alright, it seems that HBC's can infact damage an avenger, as long as something else takes the shield below 100% first. And even then they are not getting their 2x attack bonus. The tooltip says they will do 100,000 damage, but they actually only do their base damage of 50,000. This is true for both Mk I and Mk II HBC, don't have Mk III unlocked.

The only thing I can see is that while the Force Field and Hull of the Avenger are not immune to Area Damage, the weapon turrets are, which would make the turrets themselves immune to my HBC's. The area damage calc going screwy somehow?

The missile turret does do it's listed 5600 damage to the shield module.

Done gathering data, time to number crunch.

[keith.lamothe]

All modules are by default immune to AOE, to avoid some micro-craziness if you fly Riots into a lightning turret field, for example.

Forcefield modules are supposed to be an exception to this, in that they should take the damage intended for their protectees regardless of their module status.

Sounds like I need to look into why the attack modifiers are acting weird.