Author Topic: Insanity of Difficulty  (Read 4669 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Insanity of Difficulty
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2012, 11:36:08 AM »
I suppose this explains both that the AI has been laughing a lot (hitting the floor repeatedly saying something about forgotten core shield generators) and cursing ("how many frigates?").

There may actually be a bug.  One of the Generators for the Hub is able to provide power to 4 Starship construction units and the Habitat.  The difference on the first hub is 4 vs. 2 Starship builders, but it does double the resulting Spire Fleet to 160 Frigates, 32 Destroyers, and 16 Cruisers, instead of the 96/16/8 you'd normally have at that point.
Hmm, that does sound like a bug.  A very helpful one for you, of course :)  And good grief that's a huge fleet.

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However, the Exos due to me building a hub seem to be scaling with either the # of Spire Capitals built or with AIP, instead of based on # of hubs, so that is probably evening out.
It's actually currently based on hubs and the buildings (shard reactor, hab center, shipyard).  The ships themselves don't factor (they did during initial development but it felt too hamster-wheelish in practice), nor does AIP.  At this point you could probably get away with simply glassing the galaxy as far as AIP is concerned. 

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My guess is for some reason the generator is considering my 'cap' of starship constructors to be based on my homeworld count, so it's *8'ing it.  I don't have a second hub yet though (and probably won't) so hard to confirm.
Yea, it's probably something like that.

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Yeah, 80 FFs in the Whipping Boy might be considered overkill, but well... yeaaaahhh. :)
When it comes to HKs, no amount of FFs is overkill ;)

160 Frigates, 32 Destroyers, and 16 Cruisers.
A simply enormous amount of firepower.  I'm curious how long it takes for those to output 10 billion raw damage, which is basically the theoretical maximum a ship can sustain based on health (2 billion, much higher runs into the limitations of a signed 32-bit integer) and armor (80% reduction) alone.  My guess is "not very long".  Fleet engagements on that scale are very much an aggressor's game: you get initiative, you win.

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Alright, this gives me some options.  I decide to spend my 6.25k in research on a few new toys for my new friends.  I pick up Heavy Beam Cannon Is for the firepower (I figure to heck with sniping, KEEEEL!)
Definitely, the sniper modules were actually added significantly later when I wanted some variety and utility thrown in there.  For stand-up fights I don't think anything beats the heavy beam cannons.  Other than the main-hull photon lances, of course.

And yea, spider turrets are a defensive dream.

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I'll fast forward the next TWO HOURS it took to get the entire fleet built...
Haha, yea, producing the largest concentration of firepower the galaxy's ever seen can take a bit ;)

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Wait, wut?  I'm doing nothing but solidifying my defenses here, what's got the AI in an uproar?  I figure it's got to be responding to the # of Spire Capitals I'm building.  Alright, this could get interesting.
The total "antagonization" created by the spire buildings determines two things: how many points go into the counter each minute, and the maximum "send an attack" threshold.  The actual threshold starts at a much lower number and increases by 20% (or 25%, I forget) each time it sends an attack, until it hits the max.  So if antagonization stays the same the time between exos and their size will increase until they hit the max and then stay constant (mostly, if for some reason the minute-tick sends the counter significantly over the threshold then the attack can be stronger than usual).

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I had about 2500 threat hanging off WB1 in Camel, and they chewed through them with only a single frigate lost.  *blink*  Um, hm.  Wait, maybe I CAN take out the AI Homeworlds.  WOOT!
There's a reason the AI gets its registers in a twist when it hears about a human-spire alliance :)

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I run into an Eye that starts swarming me and I just sic the entire fleet on the EYE and watch it melt, and anything between the fleet and the Eye melts with it.  They were going down within 30 seconds of being in rage.
The typo in the last word is entirely appropriate.

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Taking a shot of Whipping Boy One at this point would be futile unless I showed you about 10 images at close-up.  Otherwise it's just a giant green blob of stuff.  I'm not sure even the close-ups would do it justice though.
Maybe we could add a rendering optimization for such planets that skips all the non-gui stuff and just draws "All Turrets Ever" in big letters.

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You may have noticed I used an Core Shield Generator map here instead of the 'standard'.
Hahahaha.  Yea, you walked right into that one ;)

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The reason my econ's in the dirt is I decided to try to build an Ion V at WB1.  That's just a mistake. 129,000,000 in resources.
Yea, those are basically just on the trader menu to make fun of you, they're neither feasible nor anything like worth the resources (with which you could build a very very large spire fleet instead capable of blowing up absolutely anything).

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All of the CSG A1s are sitting on ARS's as well, not that uncommon.
Yea, iirc the seeding is that each planet with an ARS gets an A-ring CSG, and those are the only planets that get A's.

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A note about decoys.  They're nice and all, but that's WAYYY to expensive on power to ever bother building them once you're looking at tightening up your belt energy wise.
Hmm, yea, it's been a long time since they've been rebalanced.

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Well, I get there, and I forgot about another joy that the FS campaign does when you tag a homeworld.  The Mothership spawn.
Grin.

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I send in two frigates to trigger the spawn and back 'em up right quick.
It's pretty funny that two frigates trigger the "human has brought 2x homeworld's entire firepower" condition, but I suppose it works.

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When they get to the gate I sick my fleet on the implosions first, since they're glass cannons compared to the rest, and then start wailing away on the H/Ks until the fleet just crumples up and dies.  I get them down to about 7 H/Ks, 10 or so siegecraft, and the mothership at full strength.
Hmm, I wonder if it would have gone better to alpha the mothership first, it does pretty sickening damage, but it depends on the tier of those implosion craft, etc.

Congratulations on surviving that attack :)  FYI, the "defense bank" refills a little with each offensive exo that is launched, so depending on how between that spawn and your next assault on either homeworld there may be a new spawn, but it probably won't be that big.

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One of the big problems is power.
Hmm, that is tricky on multiple homeworlds.  On real multiple-players you can have each person have their own set of reactors per planet; the difference is not all that huge normally but with 8 HWs and a FS game I can certainly see that happen.

Perhaps you could glass the rest of the galaxy and plant reactors everywhere?

Anyway, have fun storming the castle AI Homeworld :)


Tbh its been a while since I was able to play last, what is the current best layout for the spire cities / buildings and distances to enemy worlds to get the most Spire ships etc?
Like he said, you need to space them out, but other than that:

1) Maximize the number of shipyards to get more spire ships.  Basically that means only 1 hab center per city (needed to open the extra 3 slots) and only build reactors when you can't build more shipyards due to lack of reactors.
2) Try to place the cities in places that the AI has to go through to get to your homeworlds, because the cities are defensive beasts (not as much on multi-homeworlds compared to the larger exos, but anyway).  I prefer to have them sitting on top of a wormhole that leads deeper into my territory, so their overlapping pushing-shields physically prevent enemy progress.
3) If some of the cities are off the "defensive" path you can stack up the shipyards on them (the reactors-required-for-shipyards logic counts all such structures in the galaxy, not per-planet) and stack up reactors on the cities that are on the defensive path.  This helps because shipyards don't get defensive modules and reactors do.
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Insanity of Difficulty
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2012, 03:52:22 AM »
I'll drop by with the final AAR over the weekend, but I wanted to share asap...



Ended up as a race at the end.  I had to pop a counter in the coreworld to avoid deepstrike so I had a 15 minute timer to deal with the entire Homeworld and the Mothership.  Btw, when you get 220 ships or so per exo, you get a mothership after EVERY exo builds up a defensive bank.  Heh.  I killed 4 of them today...

But... but... I WIN!

If I do this again I think I'll give myself a nice fat handicap in resources... XD  I had it at no bonus/no penalty for any of us... but I did get these:  8)

« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 04:03:44 AM by GUDare »
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Offline zoutzakje

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Re: Insanity of Difficulty
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2012, 07:34:23 AM »
very well done =) I wouldn't be able to pull that off myself... especially because my laptop won't be able to handle the huge amount of ships at once lol. Play against a few technologists next time ^^
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Insanity of Difficulty
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2012, 09:27:48 AM »
Good grief :)
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Offline Solarity

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Re: Insanity of Difficulty
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2012, 10:32:40 AM »
Better hurry up and finish my game before you patch "winning" out...

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Insanity of Difficulty
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2012, 01:53:46 PM »
Better hurry up and finish my game before you patch "winning" out...
Haha, I've been making a few changes here and there and need to fix the thing that was letting him build 4 shipyards at the first city, but I figure the approach would have still worked on Diff 9, which is fine.

Given the length of time the game took, and the non-wave-sending AI types, I don't think this win is quite in the "bug" category, but it may indicate that the exo multiplier needs to be a bit steeper than 3 on Diff 10.

Very impressive, in any event.
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Offline Solarity

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Re: Insanity of Difficulty
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2012, 03:43:32 PM »
Mmmm, there may have been some game mechanic that I over looked, but why are some worlds on Alert that are 9, 10, 15 hops away from any of my worlds?  Nothing had been tractored there or even scouted....?

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Insanity of Difficulty
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2012, 05:07:48 PM »
Next patch: AI types that don't send waves, now send waves on Diff 10.

Offline zoutzakje

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Re: Insanity of Difficulty
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2012, 09:12:35 PM »
Mmmm, there may have been some game mechanic that I over looked, but why are some worlds on Alert that are 9, 10, 15 hops away from any of my worlds?  Nothing had been tractored there or even scouted....?

well, the devourer golem can put enemy planets on alert for example, even if you've never set foot on those worlds. And the dyson as well, as I brutally discovered in my last game...
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,10328.msg100587.html#msg100587

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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Insanity of Difficulty
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2012, 02:49:24 PM »
Re # of ships: Next time I'm going to use the half ship modifier so that all the ships are double strength and half the cap.  There were just too dang many objects going.

Keith, the two extra shipyards actually didn't make or break this game, but it did speed things up.  Once I got my tactics figured out against the homeworld MS spawns I could have easily brought up some extra 'standard fleet' firepower to even the odds out.  Whipping Boy One really didn't get hit a lot except by the H/Ks who would get through the softener systems.  I could easily have taken Camel for another softener and really got things going.  I had ~21000 research I never bothered to invest in getting that could easily have beefed the systems up to rediculous.  Also I meant 20 Frigates earlier, not 2, sorry. :)

The only reason I went with non-wave AIs was because my early setup for the Hubs left a lot of 'holes' in my homeworld region.  Once I was established I could have handled waves.  CPAs of 4000 ships were literally ignored.

Those worlds on alert are most likely near the Dyson.  It'll aggravate its world and alert everything around it, and that makes for a nice way to scout for it.  Makes for a nice 'drain' of reinforcements early on when you're getting established.  If it's the devourer you're in for a world of hurt.  If that thing sucks down your primary fleet you're going to get run over.

So, the AAR:
While I was rebuilding the primary Spire Fleet and getting the Whipping Boy fleet rebuilt from my last endeavour and having to trap the MS back at the Whipping Boy, I started getting Fortress IIs in play.  These monsters sucked down my resources but they were worth it.  I took down all the F1s and put 3 F2s in Green Lantern, another 3 in Three Kings.  I beefed up the FFs protecting the way to Warbird and put 7 F2s total into WB1.  I messed with placement and used 5 as a sponge right next to the entry gate from Three Kings and then put my slowly rebuilding Spire Fleet right behind them, so they could FRD but be in position to open fire on things as they entered the gate.  Because of all the resources going out I didn't invest in much else but the rebuild.  I turned off space plane builds though.  They were just a waste.

The next two exos were an ugly thing, since my defenses were pretty rocked.  The first one obliterated 3 of the F2s.  Power started to get into becoming a problem but that's okay, it was expected and I was activating quiet reactors as needed.  There was a Z-Gen way out deep I could go get for another 400k if necessary, but protecting it would have probably eaten all the energy it would have provided.  I could always just slurp up a random star arm up north if I really needed it though.

Once the main fleet was mostly rebuilt (Fact IV, Warbirds, etc were still getting around to finishing), I had about half of the Spire Fleet built.  7/8 cruisers, 13 DDs, a handful of frigates (around 40).  I decided I'd go see what kind of defensive spawn the AI was going to fire up after two Exos.  I take that fleet up north to the AI Homeworld and pop in... and what to my sparkling eyes does appear but a mothership, and 6 tiny hunters...  D'oh.  I back off the system and wait for them to come out, to see if I can wreck the MS and then let the rest fly past me.

It worked.  I cracked the MS and the implosions immediately after, then ignored the rest and headed into the AI Homeworld system.  They didn't follow me in, but went for the Whipping Boy.  woot.  I proceed to clean up the AI Homeworld and let the Whipping Boy handle the rest of the spawn, which really was about 1/3 of an exo when it started so it should have no problems now.  I lost about 20 frigates during the MS pop so it was a little slow going, and I took a pretty good beating taking down the FFs around the Fortress that was in the system but I managed to get out with the majority of the capitals and 15 frigs or so.  I send them home and go poke around, looking for that wave I popped loose.  They're still meandering themselves to the Whipping Boy and I've got a few more spire ships getting into place on WB1.  Excellent, no worries there.  I go poke around in my defensive worlds and figure out that I need to move some things around for optimal enemy pathing.

I had placed my spiders and the like off to the side instead of directly down one of the grav turret 'chutes'.  I move them around and add another 50 for good luck in Green Lantern (total 100 spiders, 3 fotresses, 10 basics and 5 Heavy Beams).  Green Lantern is becoming a Whipping Boy in its own right at this point, which was a good thing.  Nearly an entire CPA died in Green Lantern alone, though I did a bit of micro'ing of the raid starships to pop 4 carriers which were coming down over in Dyson.

The wave spawned hits the WB1 and dies a horrible death, the H/Ks barely reaching the FF before getting flatlined.  Excellent.

My primary Spire Fleet gets home and I grab the newly built ships and head down to start carving a path to the other AI Homeworld.  My first stop however has a counter on it.  After examining the possible alternatives I decided I didn't want to pop any of the other 'local' systems because I didn't want to expose their fabricators or Fact IVs to possible loss yet.  So I hit it, pop the counter, neuter a few more worlds in the direction I was heading and send the Spire Fleet back to defend the homeworld the counter popped up on.  Toss up about 10 FFs on the station and escape wormhole and start shipping newly built Spire Fleet up there as well.  When the counter popped I had ~12 CCs, 26 DDs, and 60 Frigs or so.  It chewed the Counter to pieces and I went back to work on the final path.

Along the way I've been glassing every system to keep things easier on my return trips if I need to do them, and I continue that policy.  One Exo has fired off between the last AI Homeworld and now, and a 50% meter pops up on my screen.  2 Exos cause a MS spawn and I want to see what 1 does. I speed up the process and start leaving some of the Wormhole Guardians behind since those take time to travel between and the snipes don't clean them off very quickly.

I get up to the coreworld approaching Eridani (final AI Homeworld) with about 5% of the Exo launch to spare.  I hustle through a quick nerf of the system, save, and throw myself through the gate... to find another MS.  Razzlefrackinrumblegrumble.  Pointless, reload save.  No reason two eat two defender waves.

I've got nearly full caps of CCs and DDs, and about 100 Frigates with me at this point.  I send the 40 or so Frigates hanging back with a DD in WB1, so I send them on a merry trip to catch up to me while I decide what to do.  The exo fires up and I chew on it in the coreworld system for anything that was Homeworld spawned, which took about 10% off the top of it.  The rest went for the defensive worlds and I ignored them.  The Frigate backup fleet was taking its sweet time catching up to me and was causing all sorts of havoc to the AI's forces along the way, so I decided to step up and fire up the defensive fleet.  I head in and immediately pop the attritioner in the system.  There's two fortresses in here but they're both well off the gate.  I let my guys clean off the local defenders and then head back to the coreworld... and maddeningly, the MS won't chase me.  D'oh.

It finally does after a few minutes.  I think it was deciding what to do because of the Exos on the loose.  As they died off it finally decided it should get involved.  MS, 60 Siegecraft/Implosions (or so, I didn't take the time to count), and 8 H/Ks make their way to me in the coreworld.  My homeworld defenses took a bit of a beating stopping the Exos this time so I decide I'm going to make a stand here and pop anything that'll hang around long enough.  I pop the local counter and command center and I'm on a timer.  15 minutes to win.

the MS comes through and tries to outrun me!  D'oh.  They didn't want to stay and fight.  Well, fine!  My fleet takes the MS down about 30 seconds before it escapes the next gate and I rush the homeworld.  The fortresses made a nuisance of themselves and the neinzul spawner went down in a heartbeat.  I finish the cleanup with the help of my reserve forces arriving about 5 minutes after first strike.  4 minutes to go on the counter and I win! :)

I may try this again, with wave AIs and a tighter homeworld collection.  I can build the Hub on the Whipping boy and let the reactor add its firepower to the WB's defenses, especially since I'm using a multi-world defensive plan before they reach the Whipping Boy.  If I do that and am more particular about which ships I take at the beginning it could do me a world of good.

Regarding energy, if you're tight on energy one thing I realized was Mark III and IV ships use the same as the Mark IIs, but with more firepower/lifespan.  From an energy perspective, don't upgrade to II unless you're going to III, and then only build IIIs and IVs.  Z Generators can stack in the same system without power degradation as well.  They are well worth the investment time to bulid and get the weight of them off your economy.  Also go through all your homeworlds and selfdestruct your Mercenary and un-used spacedocks.  At 16 of them total that's 16k in energy you could use elsewhere.

Thanks for listening and all the comments, this was fun.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Insanity of Difficulty
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2012, 03:02:18 PM »
the two extra shipyards actually didn't make or break this game, but it did speed things up
I'm not sure one way or the other: the near-doubling of your spire fleet firepower surely would make a difference in how big of an exo you could defeat.  But yea, having 8x as many FFs, DDs, and CAs as refugees+one-city would allow in a 1-HW FS game is a really big pile of firepower.  Having 16x, as you did, just made it even more decisive :) 

I'm also thinking that the scaling-with-difficulty of non-AIP threats (FS exos, hybrids) is way less steep than the AIP-threats (waves, Golem/Spirecraft exos, CPAs, etc).  Going from 9 to 10 is only a 50% increase to the difficulty-based multiplier on those non-AIP threats, and... well, looking at the wave size formula, the difference from 9 to 10 is actually slightly less than 50% greater at 10, so maybe that isn't the issue :)

On the other hand, giving an exo 50% more points is not necessarily the same as 50% more danger.  The point costs for each ship type are pretty arbitrary (not too much, I think, but still) so there's probably a lot of bumps on the budget => danger curve.

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Once I got my tactics figured out against the homeworld MS spawns I could have easily brought up some extra 'standard fleet' firepower to even the odds out.
Yea, the tactic of "kill the mothership, then get out of the way" is pretty close to optimal if your defenses can handle the remainder.  Once the MS is down the core-generator is out of the way and the exo loses the bonuses associated with having a leader (speed unification, etc).

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The only reason I went with non-wave AIs was because my early setup for the Hubs left a lot of 'holes' in my homeworld region.  Once I was established I could have handled waves.  CPAs of 4000 ships were literally ignored.
Yea, later on AIP and the associated dangers become fairly moot in an FS game unless the AI is allowed to pile up huge amounts of threat and that floods you at the same time as an exo.  But even there having multiple defense-in-depth worlds can really sap the strength of a threat-tidal-wave.  But as you've found, those early-game waves can make rather a difference.  The early game is always the most dangerous part of the game, it seems.

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If it's the devourer you're in for a world of hurt.  If that thing sucks down your primary fleet you're going to get run over.
Ah, the good ol' cookie monster ;)

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I turned off space plane builds though.  They were just a waste.
Died too fast to be a meaningful part of fleet combat?  Combined with m+c or e cost?

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I had placed my spiders and the like off to the side instead of directly down one of the grav turret 'chutes'.
Yea, spiders/snipers can actually be placed way out of range.  I generally put them in a ring at roughly the limit of how far I can build from the center, and the enemy is not likely to destroy a signficiant percentage of them.

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and maddeningly, the MS won't chase me.  D'oh.
You mean it just stayed on the AI homeworld?  It's supposed to just pick one of your home command stations and beeline for it (all the other guys in the exo are just trying to stay close to the leader).  Possibly there was a backup on the AI thread, but that wouldn't generally last more than a few seconds.

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4 minutes to go on the counter and I win! :)
Congratulations!  Even with the non-standard aspects of the game setup, very impressive.  Surviving on 10 is always a puzzle :)

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I may try this again, with wave AIs and a tighter homeworld collection.  I can build the Hub on the Whipping boy and let the reactor add its firepower to the WB's defenses, especially since I'm using a multi-world defensive plan before they reach the Whipping Boy.  If I do that and am more particular about which ships I take at the beginning it could do me a world of good.
Yea, the hub modules are defensively very powerful, but they don't scale up with the number of human homeworlds/players, so their effective power would be much diluted on an 8HW game.  I want to fix that but it's tricky to figure out a way that won't cause other problems.  The obvious way is to multiply health and damage by the number of human homeworlds/players, but that kind of scaling would be new and thus bug-prone, and it would also represent the potential for during-the-game changes due to adding more human players mid-game, which would probably open several cans of bugs.

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Regarding energy, if you're tight on energy one thing I realized was Mark III and IV ships use the same as the Mark IIs, but with more firepower/lifespan.
Right, and it used to be that MkIs had the same energy cost too, but we halved it to make MkIs more attractive to "use 'em because you got 'em".

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From an energy perspective, don't upgrade to II unless you're going to III, and then only build IIIs and IVs.
From an energy perspective, don't play 8HWs ;)  I'd also like to fix the fact that 8HWs gives 1/8th the potential standard (non-ZGen) energy production of 8 players in MP.  That has its own trickiness.

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Thanks for listening and all the comments, this was fun.
Indeed :)  Always fascinating to see what players come up with to deal with extreme situations.
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Insanity of Difficulty
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2012, 02:33:04 PM »
the two extra shipyards actually didn't make or break this game, but it did speed things up
I'm not sure one way or the other: the near-doubling of your spire fleet firepower surely would make a difference in how big of an exo you could defeat.  But yea, having 8x as many FFs, DDs, and CAs as refugees+one-city would allow in a 1-HW FS game is a really big pile of firepower.  Having 16x, as you did, just made it even more decisive :)
Really, that was the key.  If it doubled the early numbers (2 CCs instead of 1) that'd have been huge.  At the levels I was working with just from the 8x homeworld, it was... overkill.  I purposely didn't split the fleet and leave half at home to show myself that the 'extras' weren't really needed.  What it did do was make sure I didn't have to be *as* careful about my micro.

The Exos were strong enough, really.  I couldn't use the home fleet for much else but defending.  I could have taken the time to do the research and get more fleet ships which would have allowed me more breathing room, however.

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Yea, later on AIP and the associated dangers become fairly moot in an FS game unless the AI is allowed to pile up huge amounts of threat and that floods you at the same time as an exo.  But even there having multiple defense-in-depth worlds can really sap the strength of a threat-tidal-wave.  But as you've found, those early-game waves can make rather a difference.  The early game is always the most dangerous part of the game, it seems.
So noted!


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Died too fast to be a meaningful part of fleet combat?  Combined with m+c or e cost?
Both, really, though it was hard to see in the blob.  The primary reason I shut them off was damage/second compared to energy cost and who they got boosts for.  Because I had so many extra types and I wasn't using their cloakable raiding ability they were useless to my purposes.  They were just too expensive for energy compared to putting up another half a fortress.

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Yea, spiders/snipers can actually be placed way out of range.  I generally put them in a ring at roughly the limit of how far I can build from the center, and the enemy is not likely to destroy a signficiant percentage of them.
Agreed, but in the 'long' systems I was working with I was better off putting them at the tail of the grav turret stretches so that the enemy fleet would stay in the 'path' and they'd live longer.  It made the difference of them needing to be rebuilt to absolutely wreckage of the enemy.

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You mean it just stayed on the AI homeworld?  It's supposed to just pick one of your home command stations and beeline for it (all the other guys in the exo are just trying to stay close to the leader).  Possibly there was a backup on the AI thread, but that wouldn't generally last more than a few seconds.
Yeah, that was the wierd part.  It stayed there for at least a good minute, even retreated briefly back to the command center.  It might have been picking up more troops, I don't know.  It did finally get itself going though.  Was a dance for me so I was watching relatively closely.  hitting the final AI world caused deepstrike, so I was balancing the timer on the counter/command vs. that.  I had to do a bit of local reinforcement cleanup though so I wasn't sitting there with a stopwatch.


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Yea, the hub modules are defensively very powerful, but they don't scale up with the number of human homeworlds/players, so their effective power would be much diluted on an 8HW game.  I want to fix that but it's tricky to figure out a way that won't cause other problems.  The obvious way is to multiply health and damage by the number of human homeworlds/players, but that kind of scaling would be new and thus bug-prone, and it would also represent the potential for during-the-game changes due to adding more human players mid-game, which would probably open several cans of bugs.
That makes sense.

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Right, and it used to be that MkIs had the same energy cost too, but we halved it to make MkIs more attractive to "use 'em because you got 'em".
Ah!  And if you come late to the builds, it looks like the III's and IV's got a bonus, not the I's... Heh. :)

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From an energy perspective, don't play 8HWs ;)  I'd also like to fix the fact that 8HWs gives 1/8th the potential standard (non-ZGen) energy production of 8 players in MP.  That has its own trickiness.
Even a 2x boost to the Energy would have gotten me out of the serious issues I had with energy.  Energy was a significant handicap in this game.  I was producing a rediculous volume of energy and was still having to find ways to trim the tree.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Nodor

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Re: Insanity of Difficulty
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2012, 01:29:23 PM »
I've found that building 2 Mark 2 generators (for the 24K extra/planet) is useful for energy hungry Fallen Spire campaigns.


Offline Wanderer

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Re: Insanity of Difficulty
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2012, 02:45:51 PM »
I've found that building 2 Mark 2 generators (for the 24K extra/planet) is useful for energy hungry Fallen Spire campaigns.

The biggest problem was multi-homeworld caps vs. energy constraints, not necessarily the spire themselves.  The new mechanic for multi-homeworld single player solves it quite nicely, however, so that complaint is no longer existant. :)
... and then we'll have cake.