Arcen Games

General Category => AI War Classic => AI War Classic - After Action Reports => : LordSloth September 03, 2012, 03:27:17 PM

: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
: LordSloth September 03, 2012, 03:27:17 PM
Due to some masochism, I've been going through a series of games with the Hybrid Hive on and fairly defensive AI types.

The first one I tried several times was Simple Map, Gravity Drill and Shield Ninny. It was too much for me, and all the grav drills/armor inhibitors/armor boosters hurt me more then they helped.

Next up was Gravity Drill and Starfleet Commander on a simple cluster map. This actually went fairly well with a generous starting layout. So generous that there were two Interplanetary Munitions Booster in my cluster of the galaxy. Ouch.

Next I did a Clusters- Microcosm that ended up with defensive hybrids mobilizing, and getting hit by about 50 of them.

So I finally generated a new map, and I'm trying my best to apply lessons previously learned (neutering, actively hunting hybrids, don't pay TOO much attention to my champion. But this time the game has thrown yet another nasty kink in my plans.

TWO Mk2 Raid Engines in my starting cluster. Both supported by gravity drills, one supported by an Ion Eye...

(http://i47.tinypic.com/2qlyh3k.png)


So in part I'm asking for advice, in part documenting my pain.

I'm playing against a 7.3 Special Forces Captain in Yellow, A 7.3 Gravity Driller in red. I'm playing Normal+Champion, starting with Spire Stealth Battleships.  Minor Factions: Zenith Traders, Fallen Spire 4, Spire Civilian Leaders, Broken Golems (Easy), Spirecraft (Easy), Botnet Golem (Easy), DarkSpire (4). AI Plots (Both): Avenger, Hybrid Hives 4, Advanced Hybrid Hives, Astro Trains.

Before realizing the gravity drill/raid engine combo I'd unlocked Raid Starships Mk3. They do miracles against Hybrid Hives, they're much better than Heavy Bomber Starships due to overlapping Hive Shield Modules. I haven't gotten as much of a chance as yet to use my Spire Stealth Battleships, but they've proven useful in the past against Gravity Drill systems (unfortunately, EMP does not stop gravity drill effect).

I've done some other minor unlocks, but because of the impossibility of a single wormhole defense, I've gone with a light Logistics/Spider Turret/Riot Starship defense on my outlying systems, with a heavier defense on my homeworld.

So, the two Priority Six systems are the Raid Engine Systems. Parmentier, directly to my east, third from the top has an ARS, as does the P9 down in the central cluster. The Priority 7 to the south has a broken Hive Golem and Data Center.

Since I so agressively spent Knowledge on Raid Starships, I've been forced to expand southwest. I'm hoping to get all my tier 2 ships unlocked and trigger the raid engine at AIP (1).  My other goals are: knock out the two south-eastern MkIV systems, prevent some hybrid spawning; Claim the Hive Golem to the far south, while claiming the nearby world as a chokepoint so at a certain stage hybrids can only spawn outside of my cluster - barring the two MkIVs covered by raid engines, of course. There are no nebula or data reducers (other than one coprocessor) in my cluster. I figure if I can make it to a Spire Outpost or a golem, I'll suddenly have a huge load off my back.

I expect to be utilizing a lot of (asteroid) spirecraft for their immunity to gravity effects. I do have a *little* access to Xampite in my starting cluster. Short of penetrators, however, what would be worthwhile? Are jumpships allowed to teleport in gravity well systems? Normally I favor Attritioners, but they don't seem too handy this time around with the ships thrown my way.
: Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
: Bossman September 03, 2012, 05:40:53 PM
The Gravity Drill shuts down all teleportation, including the Jumpship's. Raptors would be great in this situation because they're immune to the drill, so see if you can get them from an ARS. Also consider unlocking the Spire Starship, which is also immune. For Spirecraft, a Penetrator would be the best for popping the Raid Engine, a Ram is overkill. Ion Blasters will be great for killing fleet ships in the drill systems, but weaker against the bigger stuff. Siege Towers are stronger, but slower. Implosion Artillery's damage dropoff relegates it to support, like Attritioners. Do you have Reptite and Psyite with your Xampite? If so, I'd recommend using the Xamp for mark II Ion Blasters, one Psy for a Penetrator and the rest for Siege Towers (mark I Ion Blasters are lackluster).
: Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
: LordSloth September 03, 2012, 05:51:58 PM
Yep, I have much more reptite and psyite available in my cluster.... I just have to take another system.

My stealth battleships are currently trapped down south - around 1500 patrollers are now parked in that system (including Tachyon Microfighters, unfortunately)

I do appreciate the recommendations; unfortunately Penetrators require Xampite.

In theory I could raid some xampite from the system next door, but the AI would probably decide it is finally time to resume patrolling.
I might end up taking it instead and lightning warheading the big cluster of patrol ships down south.

Edit: And I've taken said system, built two penetrators, one for each raid engine. With one lightning warhead to take off some of the pressure, I held it off, but it would have been much wiser to do one at a time, especially with the regular incoming waves that spawned soon afterwards.

There were 20-30 hybrid in my cluster I couldn't reach, I've started clearing them now.
: Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
: LordSloth September 05, 2012, 11:58:56 AM
So I've managed to take out both raid engines with a pair of penetrators - that immunity to gravity effects was a beautiful thing. Without it I probably could have done something with my stealth battleships (perhaps with an EMP or suicide champion to get past the tachyon guardian)  or a later unlock (from an ARS or the suggested Spire Starship). Taking both raid engines out at the same time wasn't my brightest idea, but I pulled through, although it got hairy when a regular wave decided to spawn as well. Fortunately, THAT wave decided to hit one of my satellite systems with spider,sniper, and logistics. I lost a good fraction of my power, but fortunately I'd been maintaining a reserve.

I've been focusing on clearing out the mark iv systems in my cluster now, and have made good progress. Ideally, hybrids will only be able to spawn outside my cluster.

I accidentally found a way to draw the 1000+ ship patrols off position- handy with clusters I suppose, especially since their default gathering point is in one of the directions I want to expand.

I'm about to flip an ARS in my cluster, which should give me Zenith Reprocessors. I cannot get a research lab mk2 through to the other ARS due to tachyon microfighters and a gravity well, unfortunately (I may try fighting my way through or at least clearing the wormholes). If I hack this nearby one, I should be able to select either Electric Shuttles or Zenith Paralyzers. Both sound like great options, but I'm leaning towards just grabbing the default reprocessors. They're not excellent, but they combine two features I greatly want: per UNIT, they have good firepower against (unshielded) hybrids and the inconvenient spire shield (8x multiplier) and command shield guard posts (just low health on those posts). Basically, they'd be supporting the small strike forces necessary in a gravity well/Eye system, especially against some of the more obnoxious posts to kill with a small force, while helping to hold off the inevitable couple of hybrids. I'm curious to see how the reprocessing helps since I'm running a mostly balanced budget.  My only concern is that the niche might already be filled by the spire stealth battleships. These would be my short-term investment/beta testing choice. They also would be outclassed by a few spire frigates.

Alternatively, Zenith Paralyzers would be a pretty effective force multiplier against incoming waves, greatly supporting my spider turrets and riot starships. On the other hand, they'd be next to useless against some of the later exo-galactic threat, armor rotter waves, and hybrid hives. If I don't switch to a traditional centralized defense, these guys would be perfect, however, letting me free the rest of my fleet from the more traditional waves.

Electric Shuttles are also attractive for much of the same reason as the Paralyzers, but in addition they might be able to help me on the offense with that huge patrol going around. I have other plans* for those patrols right now, however. All that electric damage able to be used on defense and offense is especially attractive. In the short term, I'm really not at all interested. In the long term it may be the best investment.

*Taking out the engineers in a hostile gravity well system, setting up an offensive beachhead, loading up on the spider turrets and riot starships, maybe an attritioner or two. I've already seen a large portion of the AI patrols crawling around at speed 1. I don't know if the AI simply doesn't repair them, or just didn't have an engineer in the system (far more likely, given my previous assault and retreat). I did have to quickly refocus my attention elsewhere.

To my surprise, I've used a variety of tactics against the systems with eyes. On Drill-less ones, I use the raid starships I've so dearly invested in, and get out before the patrols get in. On gravity drill systems with Ion Cannons, I use my stealth battleships - but I often cannot get them back because of the giant patrol that camps out in the system, complete with tachyon microfighters, and often over the wormhole. So when I can (no ion cannon), I instead use a small strike force of the basic triangle with champion support to do most of the work.

I'm going to secure the other world in *my* cluster, but not push out to the ideal chokepoint on their side yet. Instead, I'm going to push south first, and liberate the broken hive golem there, as well as give me a shot at my first couple of nebula (though more are in the center cluster).

I'm deciding whether to establish my my chokepoints AND/OR spire city hubs on the far side of the cluster connecting paths. But before I get there I need to actually get the outpost set up. Each branch has a nearby broken golem OR ARS.

In conclusion, not having any nearby nebula was a great thing for my game. I made a lot more progress using the basic shield ability to cover a blob of fleetships (and incredibly useful raid starships ignoring those silly stacking shield modules of hybrids), then I would have made back trying to get to Destroyer classes asap. Against the stacking hybrid hive shields and combined with the champion's FF, Raid Starships outclassed Heavy Bomber Starships by a ridiculously huge margin, even in Gravity Drill systems. From my co-op games, I can say the outcome would be entirely different with multiple champions and less grav drill/defensive AI/hybrid hives... but in this game, even a single champion more than paid for itself at the basic frigate level in a mere supporting role. I'm not talking about merely taking out guard posts and warp gates either, though it did enough of that to reach level 3 without any nebulae (I should have an easier time with that first one now, too). Force multiplier aside, it didn't hurt that I was no longer splitting my attention between incoming waves, hybrid hives, nebula, stealth battleship raids, patrolling AI forces, AND attack+defense in nebula systems. It's the first Gravity Drill + Hybrids + "Normal+Champion" game, where I've reached 5 systems well before the first CPA. I'm soon to have 7 once I decide to hack or flip the nearby ARS. And then take my chokepoint worlds for another four systems. Normally, I'd have three or five by the time the CPA hits or the defensive hybrids mobilize and wipe me out. I've been able to keep pushing forward a lot more and keep the momentum in my favor.
: Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
: LordSloth September 05, 2012, 11:54:21 PM
Well.. so much for my optimisim.

I got hit by a wave of 1600 anti-armor... not a big deal.
After that however, an incoming CPA was announced and the Defensive Hybrid were mobilizing. All this before I'd managed to finally secure my corner of the galaxy, by a matter of about 20 minutes. At the start, 19 hybrids were next door, with about all of the patrol turned into threat. After *foolishly* trying to take the fight to them,  and inefficently using lightning warheads, an attempt to clear out Hunian Hills failed miserably. In return, the Hives started taking out my satellite worlds, power levels falling everywhere, force fields critical, and I'm doomed. My scouts now report 33 Hybrid Hives next door, with 15 and 12 waiting where I had wanted to set up choke points.

I was obviously closer to the critical hour than I thought.

I'm going to rethink this a bit and reload from a *little* while back, perhaps having a series of pre-built lightning warheads ready to go and take out all the hybrids, or seeing if a more defensive, defeat in detail route is utter suicide. I'm also going to take some extra care with my raid starships in the hopes they can help me kill some of the lesser grouping of hybrid hives before the thousand ship patrol chases me down.

I just might not have enough time to take out the surround warp gates - if so, I'll have to focus on hunting down all the accessible hybrids first and foremost with all my fleet.

It's interesting that the hybrids will pass peacefully through my systems on the way to a staging point if my defenses are all far off. And also scary.
: Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
: keith.lamothe September 06, 2012, 12:51:18 PM
Glad to see the hybrids actually contribute :)
: Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
: Mánagarmr September 06, 2012, 02:00:48 PM
Quick question: What does "Defensive Hybrids mobilizing" really mean?
: Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
: keith.lamothe September 06, 2012, 02:53:13 PM
Quick question: What does "Defensive Hybrids mobilizing" really mean?
It happens when there's a cpa past a certain (fairly low) threshold, or an exo, and maybe one or two other things.

What it means is that hybrids that have matured along a defensive line (and do not ever take attack missions) are class-changed into a corresponding offensive line and have their missions cleared.  The result is usually that they go pick up some different equipment modules, maybe pick up some more drones, and then take an attack mission.  How quickly they actually attack will vary.
: Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
: Lancefighter September 06, 2012, 02:55:29 PM
So thats why the spire exowaves included like 30 hybrids each..
: Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
: orzelek September 07, 2012, 04:47:23 AM
Hybrids are all kinds of Fun...

Also I meant to ask - are they numbers based on galaxy size?

I started 120 planet game. And I can barely move around through all that hybrids (both AI's have hybrids 4/10 no advanced ones). My champion frigate has developed a hybrid fear recently and needs fleet support to clear planets due to large hybrid greetings.
: Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
: Hearteater September 07, 2012, 10:03:14 AM
All the Mark IV planets, plus Core+AIHW, have Hybrid Spawners so there are more on a larger map, just because there are more Mark IV planets.  I'm not sure if their population is capped.  If so, I've never heard it mentioned.  You can seriously cut back on the Hybrids by assassinating the Spawners.
: Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
: Toranth September 07, 2012, 10:28:11 AM
All the Mark IV planets, plus Core+AIHW, have Hybrid Spawners so there are more on a larger map, just because there are more Mark IV planets.  I'm not sure if their population is capped.  If so, I've never heard it mentioned.  You can seriously cut back on the Hybrids by assassinating the Spawners.
According to the Wiki, the hybrid cap is "(roughly planet_count/3 + hive_spawner_count*4)", but that may be out of date.  It doesn't mention the Intensity settings recently implemented.

Ref:  http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Hybrid_Hives (http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Hybrid_Hives)
: Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
: LordSloth September 07, 2012, 11:03:51 AM
I'll also say that the description of the defender role sounds of date as well. It claims that defenders only occupy systems adjacent to non-ai territory. Now unless about 30 hybrid hives were currently flying around retooling BEFORE mobilization, it looks like they were defending systems further in as well, which makes sense.

Of course, this might not be true, my scouting is currently severely restricted and almost entirely in my own cluster(though I hope to fix that if I can survive with fifteen minutes of preparation.  They may well have been busy spawning and upgrading out of sight, rather than defending against deep strikes.

I'm looking forward to another attempt at this later this evening. If I fail (doubtful, with enough warheads), I'm probably going to run a "Foreign Invasion" themed game, involving maybe 8/8 AI, Golemite/Something, no human superweapons or spirecraft, Human Colony Rebellions scale 10, Maruaders, Resistance, Devourer and I don't know what else yet. Give me a good change of pace after beating my head against Hybrids and Gravity Drills for so long. Then switch back to this.
: Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
: Toranth September 07, 2012, 11:08:28 AM
I'll also say that the description of the defender role sounds of date as well. It claims that defenders only occupy systems adjacent to non-ai territory. Now unless about 30 hybrid hives were currently flying around retooling BEFORE mobilization, it looks like they were defending systems further in as well, which makes sense.

Of course, this might not be true, my scouting is currently severely restricted and almost entirely in my own cluster(though I hope to fix that if I can survive with fifteen minutes of preparation.  They may well have been busy spawning and upgrading out of sight, rather than defending against deep strikes.
I think Defender Hybrids are also supposed to gather to defend systems that the Human might want to take, like those with Fac IVs, Fabs, ARSs, etc.  Also, with enough hybrids, there'll always be those who are hanging around Drone spawns waiting for more ships, or Equipment spawners waiting for upgrades, or just hiding waiting to mature, etc.

Edit:  Just checked, and there should be a HybridHyjinks logfile in the RuntimeData directory if you have advanced logging enabled.  That should be able to tell you what's up with your hybrids, if you think they're acting funky.
: Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
: keith.lamothe September 07, 2012, 11:15:07 AM
All the Mark IV planets, plus Core+AIHW, have Hybrid Spawners so there are more on a larger map, just because there are more Mark IV planets.  I'm not sure if their population is capped.  If so, I've never heard it mentioned.  You can seriously cut back on the Hybrids by assassinating the Spawners.
According to the Wiki, the hybrid cap is "(roughly planet_count/3 + hive_spawner_count*4)", but that may be out of date.  It doesn't mention the Intensity settings recently implemented.

Ref:  http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Hybrid_Hives (http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Hybrid_Hives)
The relevant code, currently:

:
suppliedPopulation = ( (FInt)Game.Instance.Options.TotalNormalPlanets * Game.Instance.Options.TotalSpecialDifficultyModifier / (FInt)4 ).IntValue;

populationMaxCap = suppliedPopulation * 4;

if ( Spawner.UnitData.Player.UnitTypeCounts[(int)Spawner.UnitData.Immutable.Type] > 0 )
{
    suppliedPopulation += ( (FInt)Spawner.UnitData.Player.UnitTypeCounts[(int)Spawner.UnitData.Immutable.Type] * (FInt)2 * Game.Instance.Options.TotalSpecialDifficultyModifier ).IntValue;
}

if ( suppliedPopulation > populationMaxCap )
    suppliedPopulation = populationMaxCap;
What that means in english:

TotalSpecialDifficultyModifier is "number of human homeworlds" + "number of champions * 0.2" + "1 for Diff 7, 2 for Diff 9, 3 for Diff 10" (linear interpolation on other diffs)

On Diff 7 with 120 planets, single human homeworld, no champions:
The minimum population cap is 30.
Each hive-spawner (not drone spawner, not equipment or construction module factory) adds 2 to the cap.
The maximum population cap is 120, regardless of the number of spawners.

On Diff 10 with 120 planets, single human homeworld, no champions:
The minimum population cap is 90.
Each hive-spawner (not drone spawner, not equipment or construction module factory) adds 6 to the cap.
The maximum population cap is 360, regardless of the number of spawners.
: Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
: Hearteater September 07, 2012, 11:38:05 AM
Is there any purpose to the Construction Module factory?  The Equipment seems to be the one that would provide all the normal modules.  The Constructions sounds like it was a hold-over from when they could place turrets.

EDIT: Shouldn't that be 8 not 6 per Spawner on difficulty 10 since it is TotalSpecialDifficultyModifier * 2.  So 1 + 3 from Diff 10 = 4 * 2 = 8?
: Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
: LordSloth September 08, 2012, 08:43:25 PM
Well, that was odd. EDIT: Hey, forgot to upload screenshots, fixed soon. Also forgot to display my defensive set up, if it is of interest to anyone.

So I reattempted this. First, I did some careful raid starship micro to take down the warp gates surrounding my home command. Second, I sent my Stealth Battleships east to Pz-zazz to start softening that up. I was hit with two heavy raids of fighters to Monea in the south. Various fleets and Raid Starships were sent southeast to Esflovian to clear that out for a new chokepoint, one hybrids would have to come through in order to harass us. This took a while as I had to pull back and forth due to the 1000+ patrol waiting one system further out. THe ARS lay forgotten for now, Reprocessors are not worth it, and time is pressing.  This time I was a lot more careful about shepherding my fleet ships, riot starships, combat starships, and fleet starships. I hadn't fully rebuilt by the time the CPA was announced, but this time I lost nothing more than 1 Raid Starship MkI, 1 Riot Starship MkI, and 4 Heavy Bomber Starships.

Here's where it got odd... The CPA was announced, but the Defensive Hybrids had not mobilized. I did have around 20 Hybrid Hives next door I actually was able to take out/scare off with minimal casulties, thanks to my Champion (with full shadow charge), 9 Riot Starships, 4 Plasma Siege Starships, and *just* my mk1&2 Fighters, Bombers (1/2 my cap actually) and Frigates. I admit to running out of shadow charge and pulling back before everything was done, but I was quickly able to re-engage.

Here's a map of my system.  My three immediate strategic goals are: settle and fortify that chokepoint (this includes clearing the system to the north), initiate the first stage of the Spire Campaign (taking out what warpgates I can and keeping my eye on the rest, and  strengthening my military capacity (this most likely means grabbing that ARS but I would have to spend the time hacking it and I'm not comfortable committing my forces to that yet), but may mean grabbing the broken Hive Golem instead if it looks like my economy can support it.
(http://i45.tinypic.com/2vwtphd.png)

My midrange goals include getting mark 3 scouts and exploring the neighboring clusters significantly, establishing the Spire Outpost, and establishing a foothold in the neighboring clusters. Any decision about settling the Fallen Spire cities is premature at this point. My champion is still quite a ways off from accessing a nebula, let alone my empire being weaned of reliance on its abilities.

edit2: and now the Defensive Hybrids mobilized. After the CPA was freed.
: Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
: LordSloth September 08, 2012, 10:18:48 PM
Thing is, when you pair it with a couple of fairly defensive AIs, AND have a 100 star map, the game tends to put some pressure on you, between the CPAs, mulitple waves, and spawning Warp Guardians in the system "Now What". The Captcha to upload this picture was "Take Care"

(http://i48.tinypic.com/2ziu2rk.png)

Thing is once the fifty hybrid hives are actually in your system, its a little late. Nice of them to keep up pressure elsewhere, as well.

Honestly, I could probably pull through here by going back 20 minutes, and juggling my problems twice as well.. but I just feel beaten, and can't bear to go through the pain again.

If I revisit these settings in another week, I can probably implement what I've learned to strike harder, faster, more frequently... and without wasting time to watching someone streaming something. I kept feeling like I was just barely on the wrong side of getting ahead of the hive, and even managed to fool myself a couple of times. I've no idea how I could have coped without a champion, without resorting to warheads, but it should be possible, at least with a kinder map seed.

I enjoyed the challenge, but I usually prefer a relaxing 0 AIP/30 minutes and no hive game on 7 with some stream open to watch on my second screen.