Author Topic: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style  (Read 3660 times)

Offline LordSloth

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Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
« on: September 03, 2012, 03:27:17 pm »
Due to some masochism, I've been going through a series of games with the Hybrid Hive on and fairly defensive AI types.

The first one I tried several times was Simple Map, Gravity Drill and Shield Ninny. It was too much for me, and all the grav drills/armor inhibitors/armor boosters hurt me more then they helped.

Next up was Gravity Drill and Starfleet Commander on a simple cluster map. This actually went fairly well with a generous starting layout. So generous that there were two Interplanetary Munitions Booster in my cluster of the galaxy. Ouch.

Next I did a Clusters- Microcosm that ended up with defensive hybrids mobilizing, and getting hit by about 50 of them.

So I finally generated a new map, and I'm trying my best to apply lessons previously learned (neutering, actively hunting hybrids, don't pay TOO much attention to my champion. But this time the game has thrown yet another nasty kink in my plans.

TWO Mk2 Raid Engines in my starting cluster. Both supported by gravity drills, one supported by an Ion Eye...




So in part I'm asking for advice, in part documenting my pain.

I'm playing against a 7.3 Special Forces Captain in Yellow, A 7.3 Gravity Driller in red. I'm playing Normal+Champion, starting with Spire Stealth Battleships.  Minor Factions: Zenith Traders, Fallen Spire 4, Spire Civilian Leaders, Broken Golems (Easy), Spirecraft (Easy), Botnet Golem (Easy), DarkSpire (4). AI Plots (Both): Avenger, Hybrid Hives 4, Advanced Hybrid Hives, Astro Trains.

Before realizing the gravity drill/raid engine combo I'd unlocked Raid Starships Mk3. They do miracles against Hybrid Hives, they're much better than Heavy Bomber Starships due to overlapping Hive Shield Modules. I haven't gotten as much of a chance as yet to use my Spire Stealth Battleships, but they've proven useful in the past against Gravity Drill systems (unfortunately, EMP does not stop gravity drill effect).

I've done some other minor unlocks, but because of the impossibility of a single wormhole defense, I've gone with a light Logistics/Spider Turret/Riot Starship defense on my outlying systems, with a heavier defense on my homeworld.

So, the two Priority Six systems are the Raid Engine Systems. Parmentier, directly to my east, third from the top has an ARS, as does the P9 down in the central cluster. The Priority 7 to the south has a broken Hive Golem and Data Center.

Since I so agressively spent Knowledge on Raid Starships, I've been forced to expand southwest. I'm hoping to get all my tier 2 ships unlocked and trigger the raid engine at AIP (1).  My other goals are: knock out the two south-eastern MkIV systems, prevent some hybrid spawning; Claim the Hive Golem to the far south, while claiming the nearby world as a chokepoint so at a certain stage hybrids can only spawn outside of my cluster - barring the two MkIVs covered by raid engines, of course. There are no nebula or data reducers (other than one coprocessor) in my cluster. I figure if I can make it to a Spire Outpost or a golem, I'll suddenly have a huge load off my back.

I expect to be utilizing a lot of (asteroid) spirecraft for their immunity to gravity effects. I do have a *little* access to Xampite in my starting cluster. Short of penetrators, however, what would be worthwhile? Are jumpships allowed to teleport in gravity well systems? Normally I favor Attritioners, but they don't seem too handy this time around with the ships thrown my way.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 04:56:04 pm by LordSloth »

Offline Bossman

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Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2012, 05:40:53 pm »
The Gravity Drill shuts down all teleportation, including the Jumpship's. Raptors would be great in this situation because they're immune to the drill, so see if you can get them from an ARS. Also consider unlocking the Spire Starship, which is also immune. For Spirecraft, a Penetrator would be the best for popping the Raid Engine, a Ram is overkill. Ion Blasters will be great for killing fleet ships in the drill systems, but weaker against the bigger stuff. Siege Towers are stronger, but slower. Implosion Artillery's damage dropoff relegates it to support, like Attritioners. Do you have Reptite and Psyite with your Xampite? If so, I'd recommend using the Xamp for mark II Ion Blasters, one Psy for a Penetrator and the rest for Siege Towers (mark I Ion Blasters are lackluster).

Offline LordSloth

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Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2012, 05:51:58 pm »
Yep, I have much more reptite and psyite available in my cluster.... I just have to take another system.

My stealth battleships are currently trapped down south - around 1500 patrollers are now parked in that system (including Tachyon Microfighters, unfortunately)

I do appreciate the recommendations; unfortunately Penetrators require Xampite.

In theory I could raid some xampite from the system next door, but the AI would probably decide it is finally time to resume patrolling.
I might end up taking it instead and lightning warheading the big cluster of patrol ships down south.

Edit: And I've taken said system, built two penetrators, one for each raid engine. With one lightning warhead to take off some of the pressure, I held it off, but it would have been much wiser to do one at a time, especially with the regular incoming waves that spawned soon afterwards.

There were 20-30 hybrid in my cluster I couldn't reach, I've started clearing them now.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 09:56:20 pm by LordSloth »

Offline LordSloth

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Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2012, 11:58:56 am »
So I've managed to take out both raid engines with a pair of penetrators - that immunity to gravity effects was a beautiful thing. Without it I probably could have done something with my stealth battleships (perhaps with an EMP or suicide champion to get past the tachyon guardian)  or a later unlock (from an ARS or the suggested Spire Starship). Taking both raid engines out at the same time wasn't my brightest idea, but I pulled through, although it got hairy when a regular wave decided to spawn as well. Fortunately, THAT wave decided to hit one of my satellite systems with spider,sniper, and logistics. I lost a good fraction of my power, but fortunately I'd been maintaining a reserve.

I've been focusing on clearing out the mark iv systems in my cluster now, and have made good progress. Ideally, hybrids will only be able to spawn outside my cluster.

I accidentally found a way to draw the 1000+ ship patrols off position- handy with clusters I suppose, especially since their default gathering point is in one of the directions I want to expand.

I'm about to flip an ARS in my cluster, which should give me Zenith Reprocessors. I cannot get a research lab mk2 through to the other ARS due to tachyon microfighters and a gravity well, unfortunately (I may try fighting my way through or at least clearing the wormholes). If I hack this nearby one, I should be able to select either Electric Shuttles or Zenith Paralyzers. Both sound like great options, but I'm leaning towards just grabbing the default reprocessors. They're not excellent, but they combine two features I greatly want: per UNIT, they have good firepower against (unshielded) hybrids and the inconvenient spire shield (8x multiplier) and command shield guard posts (just low health on those posts). Basically, they'd be supporting the small strike forces necessary in a gravity well/Eye system, especially against some of the more obnoxious posts to kill with a small force, while helping to hold off the inevitable couple of hybrids. I'm curious to see how the reprocessing helps since I'm running a mostly balanced budget.  My only concern is that the niche might already be filled by the spire stealth battleships. These would be my short-term investment/beta testing choice. They also would be outclassed by a few spire frigates.

Alternatively, Zenith Paralyzers would be a pretty effective force multiplier against incoming waves, greatly supporting my spider turrets and riot starships. On the other hand, they'd be next to useless against some of the later exo-galactic threat, armor rotter waves, and hybrid hives. If I don't switch to a traditional centralized defense, these guys would be perfect, however, letting me free the rest of my fleet from the more traditional waves.

Electric Shuttles are also attractive for much of the same reason as the Paralyzers, but in addition they might be able to help me on the offense with that huge patrol going around. I have other plans* for those patrols right now, however. All that electric damage able to be used on defense and offense is especially attractive. In the short term, I'm really not at all interested. In the long term it may be the best investment.

*Taking out the engineers in a hostile gravity well system, setting up an offensive beachhead, loading up on the spider turrets and riot starships, maybe an attritioner or two. I've already seen a large portion of the AI patrols crawling around at speed 1. I don't know if the AI simply doesn't repair them, or just didn't have an engineer in the system (far more likely, given my previous assault and retreat). I did have to quickly refocus my attention elsewhere.

To my surprise, I've used a variety of tactics against the systems with eyes. On Drill-less ones, I use the raid starships I've so dearly invested in, and get out before the patrols get in. On gravity drill systems with Ion Cannons, I use my stealth battleships - but I often cannot get them back because of the giant patrol that camps out in the system, complete with tachyon microfighters, and often over the wormhole. So when I can (no ion cannon), I instead use a small strike force of the basic triangle with champion support to do most of the work.

I'm going to secure the other world in *my* cluster, but not push out to the ideal chokepoint on their side yet. Instead, I'm going to push south first, and liberate the broken hive golem there, as well as give me a shot at my first couple of nebula (though more are in the center cluster).

I'm deciding whether to establish my my chokepoints AND/OR spire city hubs on the far side of the cluster connecting paths. But before I get there I need to actually get the outpost set up. Each branch has a nearby broken golem OR ARS.
  • Gravity Drills are going to be both the best and worst things ever. First, they slow down Spire Frigates/etc, though not Spirecraft. If I establish my spire hubs in these systems, anything that manages to get close to the one wormhole (after riot starships, attritioners, implosion artillery, spider and sniper turrets) into my territory will get shredded, but any defensive forces in the outlier systems are completely cut off from reinforcements. If I establish my spire hubs on my side of the cluster connections, then I get to establish turret farms that even exogalactic threats and hybrids have to break through first, as well as the potential AIP progress savings from having to clear the surrounding systems and last but not least, my entire fleet COULD rapidly respond to each chokepoint. I couldn't establish a hub on each choke, unfortunately.
  • If I set up my outer choke (not the hub) in the gravity drill system, I get to leverage the gravity well to the fullest, and have all the time in the world to get my fleet into position while the AI crawls slowly across the system. I'll need Spirecraft Siege Towers in order to defend a gravity drill, potentially. I need to doublecheck where the gravity drills are located... If they're on a hostile wormhole, it isn't worth bothering.
  • If the gravity drill system is my secondary choke, then I get to set up logistics and sniper/spiders in outlying systems, and dilute the strength of the waves. There's a fabricator I'd be loathe to lose, but it isn't essential. It'd be at risk anyways since it is in one of the golem/ars systems I plan to flip regardless of where I set up a choke.
  • In the long run, neither choke point is ideal for access to the universe at large unless I take out the gravity drills. I'll have to consider a forward production base or human warp gates.
  • The clearing of these gravity well systems should provide excellent cover to help my scouts access the universe at large. There might be something incredibly nasty I'm missing outside of my current scouting range.

In conclusion, not having any nearby nebula was a great thing for my game. I made a lot more progress using the basic shield ability to cover a blob of fleetships (and incredibly useful raid starships ignoring those silly stacking shield modules of hybrids), then I would have made back trying to get to Destroyer classes asap. Against the stacking hybrid hive shields and combined with the champion's FF, Raid Starships outclassed Heavy Bomber Starships by a ridiculously huge margin, even in Gravity Drill systems. From my co-op games, I can say the outcome would be entirely different with multiple champions and less grav drill/defensive AI/hybrid hives... but in this game, even a single champion more than paid for itself at the basic frigate level in a mere supporting role. I'm not talking about merely taking out guard posts and warp gates either, though it did enough of that to reach level 3 without any nebulae (I should have an easier time with that first one now, too). Force multiplier aside, it didn't hurt that I was no longer splitting my attention between incoming waves, hybrid hives, nebula, stealth battleship raids, patrolling AI forces, AND attack+defense in nebula systems. It's the first Gravity Drill + Hybrids + "Normal+Champion" game, where I've reached 5 systems well before the first CPA. I'm soon to have 7 once I decide to hack or flip the nearby ARS. And then take my chokepoint worlds for another four systems. Normally, I'd have three or five by the time the CPA hits or the defensive hybrids mobilize and wipe me out. I've been able to keep pushing forward a lot more and keep the momentum in my favor.

Offline LordSloth

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Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2012, 11:54:21 pm »
Well.. so much for my optimisim.

I got hit by a wave of 1600 anti-armor... not a big deal.
After that however, an incoming CPA was announced and the Defensive Hybrid were mobilizing. All this before I'd managed to finally secure my corner of the galaxy, by a matter of about 20 minutes. At the start, 19 hybrids were next door, with about all of the patrol turned into threat. After *foolishly* trying to take the fight to them,  and inefficently using lightning warheads, an attempt to clear out Hunian Hills failed miserably. In return, the Hives started taking out my satellite worlds, power levels falling everywhere, force fields critical, and I'm doomed. My scouts now report 33 Hybrid Hives next door, with 15 and 12 waiting where I had wanted to set up choke points.

I was obviously closer to the critical hour than I thought.

I'm going to rethink this a bit and reload from a *little* while back, perhaps having a series of pre-built lightning warheads ready to go and take out all the hybrids, or seeing if a more defensive, defeat in detail route is utter suicide. I'm also going to take some extra care with my raid starships in the hopes they can help me kill some of the lesser grouping of hybrid hives before the thousand ship patrol chases me down.

I just might not have enough time to take out the surround warp gates - if so, I'll have to focus on hunting down all the accessible hybrids first and foremost with all my fleet.

It's interesting that the hybrids will pass peacefully through my systems on the way to a staging point if my defenses are all far off. And also scary.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2012, 12:51:18 pm »
Glad to see the hybrids actually contribute :)
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2012, 02:00:48 pm »
Quick question: What does "Defensive Hybrids mobilizing" really mean?
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2012, 02:53:13 pm »
Quick question: What does "Defensive Hybrids mobilizing" really mean?
It happens when there's a cpa past a certain (fairly low) threshold, or an exo, and maybe one or two other things.

What it means is that hybrids that have matured along a defensive line (and do not ever take attack missions) are class-changed into a corresponding offensive line and have their missions cleared.  The result is usually that they go pick up some different equipment modules, maybe pick up some more drones, and then take an attack mission.  How quickly they actually attack will vary.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2012, 02:55:29 pm »
So thats why the spire exowaves included like 30 hybrids each..
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Offline orzelek

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Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2012, 04:47:23 am »
Hybrids are all kinds of Fun...

Also I meant to ask - are they numbers based on galaxy size?

I started 120 planet game. And I can barely move around through all that hybrids (both AI's have hybrids 4/10 no advanced ones). My champion frigate has developed a hybrid fear recently and needs fleet support to clear planets due to large hybrid greetings.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2012, 10:03:14 am »
All the Mark IV planets, plus Core+AIHW, have Hybrid Spawners so there are more on a larger map, just because there are more Mark IV planets.  I'm not sure if their population is capped.  If so, I've never heard it mentioned.  You can seriously cut back on the Hybrids by assassinating the Spawners.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2012, 10:28:11 am »
All the Mark IV planets, plus Core+AIHW, have Hybrid Spawners so there are more on a larger map, just because there are more Mark IV planets.  I'm not sure if their population is capped.  If so, I've never heard it mentioned.  You can seriously cut back on the Hybrids by assassinating the Spawners.
According to the Wiki, the hybrid cap is "(roughly planet_count/3 + hive_spawner_count*4)", but that may be out of date.  It doesn't mention the Intensity settings recently implemented.

Ref:  http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Hybrid_Hives

Offline LordSloth

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Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2012, 11:03:51 am »
I'll also say that the description of the defender role sounds of date as well. It claims that defenders only occupy systems adjacent to non-ai territory. Now unless about 30 hybrid hives were currently flying around retooling BEFORE mobilization, it looks like they were defending systems further in as well, which makes sense.

Of course, this might not be true, my scouting is currently severely restricted and almost entirely in my own cluster(though I hope to fix that if I can survive with fifteen minutes of preparation.  They may well have been busy spawning and upgrading out of sight, rather than defending against deep strikes.

I'm looking forward to another attempt at this later this evening. If I fail (doubtful, with enough warheads), I'm probably going to run a "Foreign Invasion" themed game, involving maybe 8/8 AI, Golemite/Something, no human superweapons or spirecraft, Human Colony Rebellions scale 10, Maruaders, Resistance, Devourer and I don't know what else yet. Give me a good change of pace after beating my head against Hybrids and Gravity Drills for so long. Then switch back to this.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 11:14:21 am by LordSloth »

Offline Toranth

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Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2012, 11:08:28 am »
I'll also say that the description of the defender role sounds of date as well. It claims that defenders only occupy systems adjacent to non-ai territory. Now unless about 30 hybrid hives were currently flying around retooling BEFORE mobilization, it looks like they were defending systems further in as well, which makes sense.

Of course, this might not be true, my scouting is currently severely restricted and almost entirely in my own cluster(though I hope to fix that if I can survive with fifteen minutes of preparation.  They may well have been busy spawning and upgrading out of sight, rather than defending against deep strikes.
I think Defender Hybrids are also supposed to gather to defend systems that the Human might want to take, like those with Fac IVs, Fabs, ARSs, etc.  Also, with enough hybrids, there'll always be those who are hanging around Drone spawns waiting for more ships, or Equipment spawners waiting for upgrades, or just hiding waiting to mature, etc.

Edit:  Just checked, and there should be a HybridHyjinks logfile in the RuntimeData directory if you have advanced logging enabled.  That should be able to tell you what's up with your hybrids, if you think they're acting funky.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 11:19:04 am by Toranth »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Drillin' for Gravity, Hybrid Style
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2012, 11:15:07 am »
All the Mark IV planets, plus Core+AIHW, have Hybrid Spawners so there are more on a larger map, just because there are more Mark IV planets.  I'm not sure if their population is capped.  If so, I've never heard it mentioned.  You can seriously cut back on the Hybrids by assassinating the Spawners.
According to the Wiki, the hybrid cap is "(roughly planet_count/3 + hive_spawner_count*4)", but that may be out of date.  It doesn't mention the Intensity settings recently implemented.

Ref:  http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Hybrid_Hives
The relevant code, currently:

Code: [Select]
suppliedPopulation = ( (FInt)Game.Instance.Options.TotalNormalPlanets * Game.Instance.Options.TotalSpecialDifficultyModifier / (FInt)4 ).IntValue;

populationMaxCap = suppliedPopulation * 4;

if ( Spawner.UnitData.Player.UnitTypeCounts[(int)Spawner.UnitData.Immutable.Type] > 0 )
{
    suppliedPopulation += ( (FInt)Spawner.UnitData.Player.UnitTypeCounts[(int)Spawner.UnitData.Immutable.Type] * (FInt)2 * Game.Instance.Options.TotalSpecialDifficultyModifier ).IntValue;
}

if ( suppliedPopulation > populationMaxCap )
    suppliedPopulation = populationMaxCap;
What that means in english:

TotalSpecialDifficultyModifier is "number of human homeworlds" + "number of champions * 0.2" + "1 for Diff 7, 2 for Diff 9, 3 for Diff 10" (linear interpolation on other diffs)

On Diff 7 with 120 planets, single human homeworld, no champions:
The minimum population cap is 30.
Each hive-spawner (not drone spawner, not equipment or construction module factory) adds 2 to the cap.
The maximum population cap is 120, regardless of the number of spawners.

On Diff 10 with 120 planets, single human homeworld, no champions:
The minimum population cap is 90.
Each hive-spawner (not drone spawner, not equipment or construction module factory) adds 6 to the cap.
The maximum population cap is 360, regardless of the number of spawners.
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