Arcen Games
General Category => AI War Classic => AI War Classic - After Action Reports => Topic started by: allmybase on April 16, 2010, 05:49:23 am
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Yup, just did it legit :o
Here's the save a couple minutes before it's over; you can try for yourself if you like.
The save is extremely extremely down to the wire. It really feels like that final battle in ender's game.
The total game took about 5 hours (more in real time, I reloaded a lot).
It's a 10 planet map, there are no handicaps or cheats, but I did turn off waves. The AI are both level 10, one is mad bomber one is tank.
I generated a map where my one homeplanet (I don't know how the other guy started with 8 home planets, that would have made things really easy for me to have that many resources) bordered all 9 of them, which helped because it took out all possibilities of ions (level 10 AIs have 3 ion IIs in their core planet otherwise...)
With 9 wormholes in I put about 30 basic mlrs turrets around my command post and used a strike force of 170 fighters in one transport (researched that off the bat) to quickly knock out the 7 non-home planets. The transports drew fire from the special ops post so I never lost a single fighter. After I capped all the non home planets I researched command station III (resources are really scarce, didn't't want to wait so long for things to trickle in), fighters III bombers III, and beam canon I (which turned out to be useless I'll explain later).
There were no zenith powers which would have made things a lot easier, but anyways I resourced up, then my attack plan was to wear out 8-9 core guard posts on each planet by cheesing them with transports; I would send in one as a decoy which would just about instantly die, and the other 2 would flee the bullets and drop capped ships of fighters I/II on the core guard posts. Core guard posts don't take bonus damage from bombers so fighters are the great obvious choice, they do more basic damage and they are a lot cheaper and faster to build. It takes 2-3 volleys from the 300'ish fighters to kill a guard post. I couldn't take out all 10 because a couple were under core force fields.
Even after I took out 8-9 core guard posts, both ai home planets had reinforced with about 3000 core ships plus they kept attaching more lightning turrets and warping in mark IVs from their exo galaxy wormholes. I was at quite a loss, I dumped about 20 or so lightning warheads into the weakest planet then I changed my mind this wasn't working, and my resources/knowledge are simply too low because of the 10 planet map and also because both homeplanets were immediately on alert.
So I say: the enemy's gate is down.
I fill out my cap in fighters/bombers mark I/II/III/IV and I happen to have a core fabricator for bombers too which is nice. They all load into 5 or 6 transports. I have 5 or 6 more as decoy transports.
I launch a nuclear warhead into the first AI planet, the reason being I needed to get rid of a horrendous pile of MKIVs buzzing about the command stations. This also has the happy effect of angering about 2000 core ships around the wormhole.
How did I survive that with crap technology/knowledge/resources?
Hello lightning warheads for defense.
When they warp in a bunch at a time, I detonate a warhead on them. Whoosh there goes 500 core ships at a time, no problem =)
So I defeat the massive backwash after the nuke, but before they're even quite dead I simulatenously send my transport fleet into their homeworld.
The decoys run away to draw any ships they can, while the core command station is pretty free of ships thanks to the nuke (for some reason they were gating in MKIVs from the exo galaxy to the command station, not reinforcing with cores which helped a lot. Also for some reason they didn't build any fighters at all, which helped let me bombers survive longer).
The enemy's gate is down - my 500'ish bombers and 500'ish fighters blow the living heck out of the command post, I have like 100 bombers left.
But RUH ROH. Now the "real" backwash comes, all of the remaining troops and 5 zeniths >_< I warhead on their IVs/Vs again, but the zeniths get my command station. So I reload and this time I build anti starship arachnids from a fabricator and I have the loop on my dock set to fighters. I barely kick out those super deadly zeniths - they manage to blow out my force field and scratch my command post before my swarm of fighters and arachnids barely knock them out.
One AI world down.
I rebuild the tractor defenses - scrap them and put them next to the second AI home planets wormhole, rebuild my troops, very standard prepping like I did for the first home world.
I try the same tactic, Nuke + defend against backwash with warheads + transport decoys + go for the station, but it keeps failing because this time one of their core guard posts is right next to their command station under a bubble and they have a ton of cores there that don't get angered by the nuke because they are too far away. I can break the shield but I only scratch the station before all the troops swarm in on me, even when I try transport decoying and all that lovely stuff. I suppose I could have managed it with better micro, or I suppose I could have done it smarter by rushing the core guard post earlier with tons of bombers to get rid of the force field, but the solution I come up with is simply try to brute force it - I resurrect mr artillery golem.
And there's where the save starts - the final crazy assault on the second ai homeworld.
They have reinforced after the nuke with a lot of IVs on the command post so there's some resistance there, but somehow I manage to mickey mouse it anyways. The bomber/fighter swarm crack the shield, at which point I order the artillery golem to assist and fire upon the station.
I had to reload a couple times to get it right, one time their damn engineers repaired the station to full in between my artillery shot -_-a but somehow I manage to crack the homeworld and get the double godlike achievement =)
I could go back to a previous save and time my nuking and decoys a little tighter so there weren't any reinforcements to get a less risky last save, but I'm just so relieved I did it and happy it's over. Not looking back, I'm burnt out.
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I generated a map where my one homeplanet (I don't know how the other guy started with 8 home planets, that would have made things really easy for me to have that many resources)
You just click more than one before you start the game. ;)
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So my guess is either you guys are shocked or don't believe me, looking at the lack of responses ??? :o
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For me it's more of i don't quite feel that doing it on a 10 planet map is really an achievement, since you've cut it straight down to end-game more or less :)
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10 planet? oh please ;D
40 planet minimal for it to be an achivement, 80 optimal, and 'Simple' map type
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Playing on 10 maps doesn't make it that much easier, since all planets would be on alert. But no waves is a big factor on DIF 10 that means the AI looses 50% combat ability - though i have to admit your method of getting the achievement is nice. ;)
Thankfully, i am not an achievement collector but if i were i would now load your save... and get the achievements as well ;P
Actually, i just remembered that 10 planets makes it much easier, because you incur less AI penalties meaning the AI is less mean ^^
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Thankfully, i am not an achievement collector but if i were i would now load your save... and get the achievements as well ;p
IIRC, that doesn't work because it's not 'your' campaign.
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Mhh, does the game notice that? Interesting ;)
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I was inspired to try this after I read the other godlike post.
Funny though that all I get is negative comments about it not being a real achieve when I did something harder than the other guy did.
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I was inspired to try this after I read the other godlike post.
Funny though that all I get is negative comments about it not being a real achieve when I did something harder than the other guy did.
For the record, i don't consider what the other guy did that hard either.
That's not to say you didn't beat level 10 AIs (which i suppose is an achievement in a way regardless of the map size), it's just that it seems you set out to make the achievement as easy as possible rather than getting it the "intended" way.
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If you really feel that way you'd be complaining to the developers for making the achieve too easy, not at me for finding a way to make it happen.
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Well, i think its pretty impressive that you managed this regardless of settings ;p
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If you really feel that way you'd be complaining to the developers for making the achieve too easy, not at me for finding a way to make it happen.
Check suggestions. He just did :o
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If you really feel that way you'd be complaining to the developers for making the achieve too easy, not at me for finding a way to make it happen.
Check suggestions. He just did :o
Lol, yeah i did but i forgot to post back here :)
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I think 10 planet maps are harder for a number of reasons (and quite a few players and the designer himself thinks that 10 planet maps are much harder than 80 planet maps)
1) lower resources, lower knowledge
2) ARS can spawn on the AI homeworld (-2 ARS right there)
3) never seen a zenith powerplant spawn which is a huge resource boost
4) put AI home planets on alert from the beginning
You say it's skipping to the end game, but it's an end game where you have pitiful resources, pitiful knowledge, and both AI planets are permanently on alert. And the science researched I got were bottom of the barrel in terms of direct assault on the final planet- eye bot, sniper, etherjet, and electric shuttle.
The end game is much easier in 80 planet maps because you can dump thousands of units on an unalerted home planet, which is usually the case and not remotely a challenge.
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Ah, but you have to work through ~5-10 hours of CPAs and waves which have the potential to kill you and you have to really build defenses and stuff...
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you also have a max AIP of about 100, which is hilariously pitiful, and next to no strategic concerns whatsoever. YAWN
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Eh, there are honestly ways to exploit both imo. I agree that (once you know what you are doing--aka don't alert the homeworlds or any planets you really need to take until you have the forces to take them and spread the alert out as much as possible to dilute the ai's reinforcements to areas you could care less about) the end game tends to be easier in 80 planet maps(often much much easier), while certain types of rush strategies (for example: http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,4787.0.html (http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,4787.0.html)) can make 10 planet maps way too easy. The big plus to 80 planet maps for me at least is that you can't bypass the initial/midgame difficulty (usually), but both have their ups and downs.
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80 planet (simple map type) is much much harder on high difficulties than 10 planet because no matter how economically you play, you are very stretched out and exposed. godlike waves are HUGE. as a result, you have to cover alot of territory against an enemy that can hit you ludicrously hard just about anywhere and that is just moving TOWARD the home system. with 10 planet, you dont have to worry about logistics and overstretching at all, and its that macro game of trying to balance defending your exposed assets with attacking that is really where stratergy, rather than tactics comes in.
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you also have a max AIP of about 100, which is hilariously pitiful, and next to no strategic concerns whatsoever. YAWN
The only thing hilarious here is that you didn't open the save, I had almost 600 AIP when I won.
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you also have a max AIP of about 100, which is hilariously pitiful, and next to no strategic concerns whatsoever. YAWN
110. Plus N per X minutes. AIP starts at 10 and killing on AI gives you +100.
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No waves immediately makes me go meh.
2 AI 10 (especially mad bomber and tanks) without waves just feels like playing HoN with easy mode on, not how the game is meant to be played.
~Kryzite
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No waves immediately makes me go meh.
2 AI 10 (especially mad bomber and tanks) without waves just feels like playing HoN with easy mode on, not how the game is meant to be played.
~Kryzite
Waves aren't nearly as difficult as you make them out to be.
In fact, I was fighting the hardest waves ever - 2000 threat of core ships, with no turrets unlocked, because of the backwash of nuking and killing the AI homeworld, with 6+ zenith starships.
Not even cross planets are that tough - and this was without unlocking any turrets.
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What I find most amusing is how heated this debate is. We all play this game in a way we feel is most enjoyable. For me, that's setting the AI just slightly above what I think I can handle, and dying a lot. For some, it's chasing achievements, for others it's epeen. What does it really matter?
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For me, that's setting the AI just slightly above what I think I can handle, and dying a lot.
Losing is fun! (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Losing)
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For me, that's setting the AI just slightly above what I think I can handle, and dying a lot.
Losing is fun! (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Losing)
Indeed it is! I'm very good at that part...keep running out of beer/food :/
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FYI, we are planning to make achievements (at least top-tier ones like this one) a bit more discriminating about the settings of the game. Not a big priority with the other stuff going on, but it's planned.
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Waves aren't nearly as difficult as you make them out to be.
In fact, I was fighting the hardest waves ever - 2000 threat of core ships, with no turrets unlocked, because of the backwash of nuking and killing the AI homeworld, with 6+ zenith starships.
Not even cross planets are that tough - and this was without unlocking any turrets.
Thing is, you were fighting the hardest waves ever, on your time, on your terms.
Waves individually are not supposed to immanently break your game, then the game would be broken! Waves are about the ebb and flow, the constant threat, the slowly wearing down of your defences until they snap.
Fighting 2000 core ships when you have lightning warheads prepped and ready is one thing.
Fighting 1000 IV ships when your lightning warheads have been vaporized by your fight with the 2000 core ships, and you haven't had time to build them back up is another thing.
Fighting the second 1000 IV ships after that first wave you barely held off because you got lucky.... that's the point of waves.
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Waves aren't nearly as difficult as you make them out to be.
In fact, I was fighting the hardest waves ever - 2000 threat of core ships, with no turrets unlocked, because of the backwash of nuking and killing the AI homeworld, with 6+ zenith starships.
Not even cross planets are that tough - and this was without unlocking any turrets.
Thing is, you were fighting the hardest waves ever, on your time, on your terms.
Waves individually are not supposed to immanently break your game, then the game would be broken! Waves are about the ebb and flow, the constant threat, the slowly wearing down of your defences until they snap.
Fighting 2000 core ships when you have lightning warheads prepped and ready is one thing.
Fighting 1000 IV ships when your lightning warheads have been vaporized by your fight with the 2000 core ships, and you haven't had time to build them back up is another thing.
Fighting the second 1000 IV ships after that first wave you barely held off because you got lucky.... that's the point of waves.
It's not as easy as you think. It's only easy because I told you how I did it. I had to figure out how to beat 2000 core ships with nothing but a pitiful turret cap. You only say it's easy after I told you I lightning warheaded them, but it took some great thinking on my part to figure it out, because no one here had ever discussed fighting a wave of that magnitude with such a pitiful resource/knowledge base.
And like I said before - waves are not nearly as difficult as you make them out to be. What wave do yo not fight on your own terms? Being at 500 AIP doesn't spawn 1000 MKIVs. Hint, it doesn't even spawn MKIIIs, and not nearly 1000.
What makes you think waves are so difficult?
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I refer you to the epic chronicles of BoatMurdered! http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/Boatmurdered/
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:o
Nonononono. The boatmurdered analogy would be a couple of your scouts meeting a bad end in a system 3 hops out, and all of your ships hearing about it and immediately rushing out to that same spot to claim the salvage for themselves, and getting slaughtered by a herd of elephant-devourers.
And I guess there would have to be some sort of lever involving a large number of nuclear devices.
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And Lava! Uhh... I mean, solar plasma. ;D
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That would make a great endgame plot as your massive fleet rolls into the AI homeworld.
"AI 2 - Legenedary Mechanic has pulled the lever."
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Heh, sounds like the next AI plot has already been decided ;)
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Waves aren't nearly as difficult as you make them out to be.
In fact, I was fighting the hardest waves ever - 2000 threat of core ships, with no turrets unlocked, because of the backwash of nuking and killing the AI homeworld, with 6+ zenith starships.
Not even cross planets are that tough - and this was without unlocking any turrets.
Thing is, you were fighting the hardest waves ever, on your time, on your terms.
Waves individually are not supposed to immanently break your game, then the game would be broken! Waves are about the ebb and flow, the constant threat, the slowly wearing down of your defences until they snap.
Fighting 2000 core ships when you have lightning warheads prepped and ready is one thing.
Fighting 1000 IV ships when your lightning warheads have been vaporized by your fight with the 2000 core ships, and you haven't had time to build them back up is another thing.
Fighting the second 1000 IV ships after that first wave you barely held off because you got lucky.... that's the point of waves.
It's not as easy as you think. It's only easy because I told you how I did it. I had to figure out how to beat 2000 core ships with nothing but a pitiful turret cap. You only say it's easy after I told you I lightning warheaded them, but it took some great thinking on my part to figure it out, because no one here had ever discussed fighting a wave of that magnitude with such a pitiful resource/knowledge base.
And like I said before - waves are not nearly as difficult as you make them out to be. What wave do yo not fight on your own terms? Being at 500 AIP doesn't spawn 1000 MKIVs. Hint, it doesn't even spawn MKIIIs, and not nearly 1000.
What makes you think waves are so difficult?
First, to correct a mistake:
At diff 8+ the waves start a level higher, thus at ai 10, at 200 or so aip, the ai will use mkIII ships in its waves. Have you tried waves on diff 8+ yet(esp with a couple of wave heavy ai types, say vicious raider + mad bomber or so)? If you haven't, there was a aborted game of the month where the goal was just to survive a pair of raid heavy ai 10's a bit ago. A few people by abusing lightning missiles were able to survive till they got bored, but were pretty much unable to mount any offensive.
To answer your question from the other thread, yes, I have lost to waves before. Nothing like 300 mkII bombers at the 20 minute mark if you aren't prepared completely for them for a quick loss. At the very high diffs, even if you "survive" the first few waves, if you have too many wormholes to defend(for example in this game where you had 9 wormholes), the ai's ability to take down your extractors can cause you to lose if it can attrition you down by denying you resources and forcing all of the resources you have into defending from waves(or force you to use exo-shields which costs a chunk of your starting resources and more importantly cuts your initial resource income by about 1/6th). I'm not saying they aren't beatable, but they do still add a significant challenge to the game at the higher diffs. Waves do become less dangerous really as time goes on, at least until you hit obscene ai progress levels and they start spawning with multiple spires and such.
Is it still beatable? Probably, but I don't agree with your statement that it won't really change the game at all. Not having to invest resources in defense against waves makes offense easier, which lets you strike faster and keep ai reinforcement time down, etc. It all tends to snowball.
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lol no waves?
no waves sounds sort of like beating doom on the 'yay mommy I can win' difficulty ;D
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It's not as easy as you think. It's only easy because I told you how I did it. I had to figure out how to beat 2000 core ships with nothing but a pitiful turret cap. You only say it's easy after I told you I lightning warheaded them, but it took some great thinking on my part to figure it out, because no one here had ever discussed fighting a wave of that magnitude with such a pitiful resource/knowledge base.
And like I said before - waves are not nearly as difficult as you make them out to be. What wave do yo not fight on your own terms? Being at 500 AIP doesn't spawn 1000 MKIVs. Hint, it doesn't even spawn MKIIIs, and not nearly 1000.
What makes you think waves are so difficult?
Firstly, my numbers and ship classes were made on-the-spot for that post I made with my Droid, but yes, they do spawn MKIIIs at higher difficulty. That compounded with the fact that you simply don't have to worry defense pretty much at in the beginning, and allowing you to mount faster and stronger offenses near the end. Kjara put it nicely, it all snowballs.
I never said that beating 2000 core ships is easy. I said not having waves makes everything easier. It's basically taking every offensive capability the AI has away from it. The only time the AI will attack you without waves is a CPA that is announced VERY early and gives you plenty of time to prepare for, or the backwash, that you control completely.
That, and you played against a heavy-raid type, Mad Bomber, and then cut off the main point of that AI type, the raids. You talk about the difficulty increase on small maps due to lower resources, but completely fail to realize increased strain on resources that waves create when you are on difficulty 10.
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If your point was simply that not having waves makes it easier, then yes I agree with that.
But you attempted to exaggerate it to the point where it would make it impossible, so no I don't agree with that.
You did not simply try to say that having no waves makes it easier.
Also, the coder guy keith says he's going to allow turtle AI, so that's going to allow no waves too....of course I'm going to do whatever it takes to make my life easier outside of hacking the game. That's why people don't allow astro trains, or try lesser AI types, or abuse transports or other mechanics like that. As long as the designer permits it, you do whatever it takes to win. I hate to say it, but I think all of this criticism stems from jealously at not having figured it out sooner.
Yes I have played at difficult 10 a lot, so I was off by one mark a mistype, but you were off too by a mark. Your 1000 MKIV ships is clearly incorrect was my point, and my point was still right.
I'm very surprised that no one here has actually played at difficulty 10. The real reason why 10 is hard is because there is a huge increase of MKIV planets (on 80 maps anyways), and they have up to 3 ion IIs. People keep exaggerating the problem is the waves or something like that, when the problem is having to try to take out so many MKIVs. Have any of you actually played at difficulty 10?
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I actually don't care too much about getting the Godlike achievements; it would be nice someday but i don't have a particular priority to get them. And with the turtle AIs, they specifically get reinforcement points to compensate for no waves, so it's not much if any easier.
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I actually don't care too much about getting the Godlike achievements; it would be nice someday but i don't have a particular priority to get them. And with the turtle AIs, they specifically get reinforcement points to compensate for no waves, so it's not much if any easier.
+1
If I really was concerned about achievements, I'd play xbox.
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I actually don't care too much about getting the Godlike achievements; it would be nice someday but i don't have a particular priority to get them. And with the turtle AIs, they specifically get reinforcement points to compensate for no waves, so it's not much if any easier.
I like acheivments as they direct where to apply skill next
for competetive rts players (like myself), the enjyment is the feeling of beating a challenge. run out of challenges and the game gets dull.
so, for example, trying to play without unlocking new ships, or using turrets or winning within x time limit, is more interesting than just playing normally and winning
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for competetive rts players (like myself), the enjyment is the feeling of beating a challenge. run out of challenges and the game gets dull.
so, for example, trying to play without unlocking new ships, or using turrets or winning within x time limit, is more interesting than just playing normally and winning
If you have to resort to that sort of thing to get satisfying difficulty out of AI War, I'll be happy to make more nintendo-hard options for you :)
"Battletoads mode"... ;)
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There's Nintendo hard, then there's Nintendo Hard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlatformHell?from=Main.Masocore)
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"120 Avengers to Murdoch in 02:35"
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If you have to resort to that sort of thing to get satisfying difficulty out of AI War
not yet I dont, but once I beat the double godlike 80 planet simple map... :P
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*Dual wields nerf bats*
How?
;D
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I'm trying against dual special forces captains
I'll get back to you when I manage to move a unit off my homeworld without it freeing about 800 ships and instantly destroying me ;D