Arcen Games
General Category => AI War Classic => AI War Classic - After Action Reports => Topic started by: Wanderer on March 29, 2012, 01:32:55 am
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So, I decided it was time for a nice game of Disposeable Heroes.
Settings:
AI 9/9 Fortress Baron / Neinzul Enthusiast (seemed thematic)
Seed is the 80 planet simple seed 928787814. Keith, you amazing man, they connect through Blade Spawners? It's like you know my tastes... :) Next thing I know you'll be sending me Shannon Doherty carrying nothing but a case of Stella Artois. I almost took a 6 planet start, the blades being semi-thematic. Alas, I didn't.
Plot Settings: Human Colony Rebellions, Human Resistance Fighters, Zenith Devourer, Zenith Dyson Sphere, Zenith Traders, Schizo
1/30 min AIP increase with complex ship types and full fog of war.
Opening Theme Music: Blue Man Group
You stare at a simple stage, with a large display screen and a small podium to the right of it. In the foreground, all you see in the dark theater is the shapes of antenna and bulbous bodies barely poking up above the seat backs.
*A riding crop whaps the wall as a tall man in a military uniform walks in*
ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLRIGHT you Maggots! And Leeches. And you beetles. And... well, whatever the hell YOU are (points at a big blob of nanites in a pile)... LISTEN UP! I'm only gonna say this ONCE!
You all know damned well we rescued your hive and your queen is currently in our VERY BEST! medical facility we have to offer! The AI tried to wipe you out TOO! And now your queen's life is dependent on humanity's survival. You're our shock troops!
GET OVER IT! You breed faster and are tougher! HEY HEY! Remember what happened to the roaches! We beat them so badly they went to the AI for protection, now settle down. *whips out a gun and fires, a set of antenna falls in the front row* SETTLE DOWN!
That's better. Here's our situation!
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/DHOpeningMap.png)
Alright, now, the Red Area?! That's Homeland! This is to be protected AT ALL COSTS! If you don't, your queen dies, your hive dies, your young dies! You'll be dead already anyway but still, MAKE SURE THEY DON'T GET HERE! There three worlds there, Mantis, Sushi, and No Way Out. See them? *WHAP* Right there you blind...
*He grabs an insect and rubs his antenna on the three choke points in the SE area of the red circle* THOSE PLANETS YA BLOODY BUG! *He tosses the insectoid back in its seat and rubs his hands on his pants repeatedly while still talking*
That blue area just to the right? Here, look, I labeled it you illerate bunch of bugs... ARGH. FINE. That's the Backyard! We don't want nuttin' there we need to worry about, see? Right, leechboy, free food. Um, yeah... just keep... um... licking your lips like that... yeah. Errr... someone get him a towel? or something?
Anyway, alright, that yellow section right in the middle, yeah, we're gonna call that CENTER. Right, nice and easy for you.
Okay, the ... *looks down at his cue card in his hand* Fuschia... Fuchia? What are we, interior designers? The PURPLE section in the lower left is called the Southwest. Got it? South. West. Say it with me.
*He suddenly pales* Alright, nevermind. Don't say it with me. Just... stop... doing that thing with your... mandibles please. Ugh.
*Pops a Rolaids, muttering something that can't be heard from the back of the theater*
Alright, the lower right? Yeah, that's the Maze. Right, the orange area. Why? Because it took me the better part of half an hour to untangle the routing in there. Just get over it.
The last area which is *consulting cue card* Cyan... REALLY?! There's, what, 5000 of us left and I gotta get a guy who wants to be an interior decorator as my presentation creator?! LIGHT BLUE you ... nevermind! Anyway, we're naming that Bob. Why?! You little Cretin, because the god Bob deserves some respect, even from you! That and it's my uncle's name. He died saving your worthless hides so you'll be screaming his name during every system you fight in while you're destroying the AI Homeworlds.
We expect the AI Homeworlds to be somewhere in the Maze and in Bob sector. Both AIs might be really deep in Bob, we're not sure. We won't know until we get to know Bob better and figure out where all the pain is in Bob. As we travel around the insides of Bob, we'll get to know Bob a lot better, intimately even. I want you all to take it real slow in Bob. If you go too quick we might set off Bob and it'll explode all over us. We expect Bob's pretty powerful, having been left alone for far too long, so we're not sure what to expect.
*blinks at his cue card, and turns a horribly beat red. A snickering is heard off stage right. The man on stage turns to the offstage snicker* "There's going to be 4,999 of us VERY SHORTLY!"
Anyway, get out of here and KILL SOMETHING! LISTEN TO THE RADIO you crazy bugs! Go out and fight for the right to have a chance to breed before WE kill you for your living space! Fight for the chance to fight for the chance to live! GO GO GO GO GO!!!!!!
... and so it begins. Immediate goals for the first hour. Hvy Research on the Harvesters. Blow out two planets in all directions for breathing space and get the MK I fleet up as homeworld patrollers. Determine what to expect on Sushi, No Way Out, and Mantis and their connectors as my 3 primary chokepoints for homeworld defense. Blow through the Backyard, see if there's anything worth taking back there, then nerf the hell out of it once I'm done and forget it ever existed.
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Initial scouting done, tons of forts as expected against the Baron.
However, I had to share:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/DH-Seriously.png)
Seriously. That's with the 2x Max Harvester III upgrades. That's with 60x Engi Is on the Neinzul builders and 30 on the MK I standard fleet builders. At 4.5 minutes into the game I'm over half a mill in resources.
*blink*
I should add, 1500 Neinzul fleet swarming a MK IV system out of the gate is a thing of joy. The parasites haven't actually reclaimed a blessed thing yet but that's besides the point. This is going to be a hysterical game.
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At 8 minutes I get A 5 way wave coming at me on four planets, having already popped one of the Warp Gates against the rear systems. I'm just swarming all my neighbors, fortresses and all. I've beefed Tigers and Commando's to two, have 3 space docks going because of build speed, and ~100 Engi Is on my primary build planet going bonkers.
My 'rear guard' of 1000 MK I triangles are split in two covering two of the planets against ~80 ships/wave. The other two are guarded via an FRD pathing for the neinzuls while the rest of the mob is out causing mayhem.
This is going to get fast updates. I truly don't expect this game to take very long.
Had a couple of false starts, underestimating the power of 1000 ship waves coming at the final point I left open (west most world in Homeland) while my neinzuls were out harassing the galaxy. I'm still inside the first 15 minutes due to three save scums of goofing around. I blame portions of this on the six pack of beer I've drank already and laughing hysterically as I keep building Space Ports to TRY to keep up with my Econ. I'm going to open up Engi IIs just because at this rate. This is HYSTERICAL.
I'm probably laughing to hard but I really just can't take this seriously. It's just far too damned funny!
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Ow ow ow, lost a home Human Settlement and some of the little +1 guys at Ceasar, but we held. Silly Human, you have TURRETS! D'oh!
At 14:30 or so we ran into a Fort III + Superfort on Mantis. At 16:00 or so the Fortress was dead with the super fort at ~40% left and the bugs were redirected to assist the defense at Ceasar.
Building off 150 Lightnings, 150 Flaks, 300 or so Snipers, AND keeping up all the neinzul + Standard fleet. Now, THAT will chew into your economy!
Particularly simultaneously with over 130 Engi Is going all over the place. XD
At 19:00 the bugs, with the heavily weakened econ, hit Mantis again, being Mapped to FRD a long run towards the backyard from the southern side, passing through Ceasar from now on as a doublecheck.
BWAHAHAH, at 21:00 or so the Devourer moved into Ceasar, trying to eat the neverending Neinzul flood.
At ~24:00 another wave announced with cookie hanging out in Ceasar, so I deflected the Neinzul bugs to another pathing so he'd eat the wave after he got done chewing on my locally rebuilt MK I reponse fleet. This should be funny... :)
At 26:30 the Superfort on Mantis dies. Cookie ate more of my fleet than theirs, but 155 lightning turrets will help with that...
30:00: +1 AIP
AI: Did you really expect that to work?
Did I expect WHAT to work?! Where the heck did THAT come from?!?! AIP is at 57, it's not like I've been hiding at 10.
What's that naughty AI up to THIS TIME?! I wonder if he's whining about me sending the Cookie off to eat him a while.
Oh, yeah, entire Neinzul force is up to MK II by now from homeworld researching. I'm up to 12 spacedocks on the Bug-Build world. Watching Spire Shield IIIs and FF IIIs just melt is fun.
35:00
Oh. My. God. On Chaos March in the backyard I found the counter to the NEinzul Swarm. Ever run headfirst into an AI Eye on a MK IV world with 2000 ships? This should be FUN!
WHOOPS! SCOUTS FIRST!
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Redirect the bug-assault through the closest homeworlds to the backyard and then ship them along the north side... along with a mass of scouts to check for eyes! None there, woot woot!
35:00 All home command stations get a small bank of 50 Basic I turrets for good luck.
No serious impact from freeing 1000+ MK III ships, but mostly because of the redirections. Is there a reason I don't auto-target Neinzul spawner posts? Just wierd. I'll have to go back and do some cleanup. Did I mention that was also currently a keepstrike on Kurita?
Oh my god, this is like watching a pirahna attack...
40:00 Found a Fact IV on Poker in the backyard. Not sure what I'd do with it, it can't produce fast enough, but funny nonetheless. I'll probably take that for the CSG eventually. AIP: 60
44:30:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/DH-63AIPWave.png)
Tiny little thing, only 3000 ships at AIP 60.
SERIOUSLY!?
Redirect the Pirahna swarm through Ceasar for defense.
BWAHAHAH, yeah, okay. No problems. SQUISHIE!!!!! Particularly after I toss up a cap of 300 LRMs.
51:00 Took on another AI Eye at Pox Aurelia in the Southwest by accident, but I did pop the Datacenter in there. Redirecting towards Central again.
54:00 I see the AI still has a sense of humor...
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/DH-56minwavehumor.png)
56:00 Goofing off with GIMP in another window, an EMP starts going off from the Maze Entrance towards the homeworld in Blackjack traveling through the Southwest. Git 'em, boys!
1:00:00 Cookie Monster is harassing the pirahna mob down in the Southwest/Central/Maze area on Spagetti. I think he's somewhere between TripleChocolateChip heaven and frickin' confused.
EMP got whacked after he went off the SECOND time in Blackjack. Cute.
I'm going to need to start looking for a world to take as a step-stone shortly... OH LOOK! An ARS on Kerensky in the Southwest. Science II being built for investigation.
1:03:00 Pirahna swarm no likie Grav Guardian in Maze Entrance.
1:05:00 Laser Gatlings, Zenith Bombards, or Honeycombs in ARS. AIP 49. Hm. Not sure yet, pirahnas still have more in range to eat. Get back to that. All are tasty tasty though, not really worth a hack. If I did hack, it'd have to be for gatlings. SWARM BABY SWARM!
Open up Fleet Scout II for deeper scouting. 100 of them? Oh, very nice. 2250 K to play with still.
1:10:00 I need an Eye popper. Raid Is will not be enough, I need research, two planets. Time to seriously pick some. Hm.
Kerensky has the ARS and is wicked deep, good stepping stone. That's one.
That's 4 hops to Blackjack, dead center of the Maze, with a D-Class on it. Perfect, except for one thing.
It's got an Eye on it. Cute. ::)
Well, we'll see what happens. Kerensky first of course. I need to take that to go that deep anyway.
Ergh, maybe I DO have enough firepower... 15*Raid Is?! This might work... XD Started building those off...
1:18:00 Deep strike raid against Kurita goes great except for the endless Spire shield. At 800 Threat I back off. I need MK IIs as well for that system.
1:22:00 I pop a Counterstrike III to help free up one of the Eyes in the Southwest. It goes after jumping jax, my bug-build world. That's kinda funny.
1:27:00 Pop another DC in Central. AIP 33. Floor is 14. Dang those SF Posts and warp gates really add up, don't they...
1:29:00 I put the bug-build into a SHIFT-FRD route to cover the homeworlds for the counterstrike landing in 7 minutes. I got work to do with the raids anyway. I've leveled anything that's actually in striking range and not hiding behind an AI Eye, and that's upwards of 30 planets already nerfed.
1:30:00 Another counterstrike off an Eye world goes for Jumping Jax. I must just live well.
1:31:00 Whoops. Constant bug-construction + 130 Mercenary fighters on Jumping Jax = dead economy. Shut that back off...
1:33:00 Ah, another Fact IV in Central, at Syphon. That'll work much better. Hadn't seen it because of AI Eye avoidance earlier.
1:35:00 1 minute till first Counter hits. Another AI World in the SW is a wise-acre, it's got a stealth guard post on it. I know where it is, but I'll need to get Scout SS Is down here to force it into the open. Keep clearing while I wait for one to build on Jax.
1:36:00 I screw up with the Raids and leave them in range of a fortress, half are dead, the other half are half dead.
First counter arrives and is chewed on. It's not obliterated by the pirahna fleet immediately, but they get the job done with no concerns for the safety of the homeworld.
Continue the defensive patrol until second counter is ignited in 7 minutes. I'm still doing Raid SS work anyway.
1:37:00 The damaged raids get back to JJ for reinforcement and the Scout SSs get to the stealth post. Yep, right where I thought it was. Got a Spire Shield post on THIS planet, too. Takes about 4 - 5 mins for the 15 Raids to pop one of those at MK III.
1:38:00 One of the border worlds has gotten up to 120 units. Alter the defensive pathing of the bug-build to include this planet for scouring.
1:40:00 Having sent the raids back into the Southwest, and dealing with a little map exploration and re-setting my 123 leftover fleet scouts to Alt-Picket again, I catch up with my Raids andd there's only 14. Should have waited a moment to let the Bugs engage that 120 unit system, I guess. Ah well.
Two ARSs are in the Southwest, now that I've cleard most of the AI-Eye worlds. Between those, the D-Class into Maze, and the B-Class in Central, that'll give me some reasonable stepping stones. Now, I have to decide, do I continue to defend at the homeworlds, or do I move the whipping boy?
The real question is, do I actually expect this game to last long enough to pop a CPA? Yes, 1, at around 3.5 hours. I can always retreat back to the Homeworlds and abandon any stepstones. We'll move it. Safer all around that way. Now... WHERE?... That's a dang good question. I need to see if either of the AI HWs is in the Maze before I finalize that decision.
1:43:00 Resources back at max, turn the Merc constructor back on for Merc Fighters.
15 seconds later: Turn the merc constructor back off after resources drop by 1.2 mill of m+c producing a mere 65 fighters. Gyeah! XD
1:44:00 Second Counterstrike hits. Raid SS escapes the defenders into the wild.
1:44:45 Counterstrike destroyed. The kids are sent to go beat on something in the Maze with a Superfortress on it.
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hehe this game sounds to be fun. I should really also make use of the harvester upgrades. I may actually get that 10/10 8 homeworld achiev.
Why did you change your nickname btw GUDare? Now people will get confused :P
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1:47:00 Raids get done with first of 2 Spire Shield Guardposts in Solaris VII. They begin killing the OTHER one...
Desperado Fort II now dead, bugs are dealing with the SuperFortress.
1:49:00 Bored for a moment, I clean up double/triple stacked scouts trying to picket and take the scout mob and try to drive them into the 'loop' in Central, to see what's hiding in there. I also poke around and pick up the one-off reclaimed units like paralyzers and tank units that my little nanos tend to leave behind.
1:50:00 The kids take out the Superfortress on Desperado and begin working the multiple FFs/SpireShields on the planet. I poke around for their next target and decide they'll be heading for the area I opened in the Southwest that was guarded by an AI eye on both sides.
1:53:00 Raids get done with second spire shield in the SW. There's no more eyes there so they head home to JJ for refit/repairs. Next Target, Syphon in Central with the Eye and Fact IV.
Troops from the SuperFort killing in the Maze head towards the center area of the SouthWest and hit another Superfort. They get distracted and die instead of meeting up with the reinforcement pouring in further west. Remap the FRD from the Space Docks to include this planet after the other two they're mapped to cleanup.
1:55:00 The scouts got reasonably deep through Central even though it's uncleared. Not 123 scouts worth of deep, but deep enough. There's 2 more eyes found and another Fact IV in Central. Nice. The Raids will have their work cut out for them for a while, I think I want Raid IIs before I send them in. I plan on taking Kerensky, the first ARS planet and stepping stone to deeper into the Maze.
My Science II has reached Confederation, the other ARS planet I found. BulletProofs, Vamp Claws, and Mirrors.
Pause. Need a few minutes to think here.
If there was ever a game I wanted Mirrors, this is probably it. Talk about a suicide ship. Well, my first hack is determined. From Kerensky I should be able to pour the kids in after I move everything down. I've managed to inherit 8 Engi IIIs as well so that'll help with startup builds down there. I don't think I want the whipping boy down there when there's worlds in Central that lend themselves to a bottleneck better and are worlds I'll care about holding long term, with Fact IV's into a major region.
At this point, there's one 'threat' world in the Backyard, Kurita. I need a stepstone to really get at it or Raid IIs to pop that danged Spire shield. So, Speed Slam Kerensky, drop in 20-30 Science IIs, and take the ARS/pop the CSG. Continue to do bug-builds off JJ for now. Plan a hack for Confederation but hold off on those plans for 10-15 minutes while I use the Kerensky step-stone to drive up the back passage of the maze and open up more areas for the scouts so I can figure out what's back there.
Alright, game on.
1:56:30 Raids hit Kerensky's Counterstrike post. 137 ships to Ceasar, the turretball/whippingboy. BWAHAHA, alright, we're good. Advance the timelines.
1:57:30 kids start on the SuperFort in Confederation.
1:58:00 Zenith Bombardment ships are opened up. Well, if there was ever a beautiful ship for a whipping boy, that's it. Add it to the build list for the defensive fleet Shipyard on Ceasar.
1:58:30 20 Science II's land on Kerensky. 3000 K gained 45 seconds later. They head back to homeworlds to stay safer. I blow the Kerensky station.
2:00:00 The kids had gotten distracted by something, somewhere. They're back on task in Confederation now though and are working down the Fort II and SuperFort. Raid SS II researched and building.
2:02:00 The kids had a really tough time with the SuperFort this time, was odd. Finally take the thing out.
The entire Southwest is now clear of any significant obstacles. Just Cmd Posts and Warpgates.
2:03:00 Crap, there's a BHG on the back way through the Maze, I'll have to kill it or punch my way through the front door. There's another ARS in the upper Right corner of the maze I can get to if I keep going this way. I kind of need to go this way anyway, I need eyes in the Maze so I can see what the AI has, if anything, there, or if everything's up in Bob.
Power just started to become a problem. I start activating some of my 5xreactors on each of the homeworlds.
2:04:00 Omega, the BHG world in the Maze, is a MK IV with a Fortress and a Grav Guardian near the entry making life miserable. Well, looks like the kids will be there awhile. No problem. Gives me time to build off my Raid IIs.
Continue trying to drive the mass scout fleet into corners of the Maze from the front door with limited success.
2:07:00 Heh, Omega's got a Fact IV on it, too. That could be handy.
A dual wave is hitting me for 3000 ships on Ceasar at AIP 62. This could get interesting, but unlikely. I'll go watch though when it gets here.
2:07:30 I'm out of crystal. Those are some HUNGRY Raid IIs. And Zenith Bombards.
2:09:00 Massive pieces of the last wave escaped the grav well by avoiding it and going sideways. Improve the gravwell.
2:09:30 Second wave comes in as backup to the first... which left already with ~200 ships. The paralyzers practically shut down my entire Flak Turret set. They need some FFs apparently.
2:10:00 This is getting UGLY. I think I'll hold but they're breaking through the lines. I can't move the homeworld station or I'd get it a LOT further from this wormhole. Drop 5 FFs on the flak / lightnings. That's enough of THAT.
2:11:00 Put the kids back on defensive/scour duty. The ones out at the Fact IV are blowing the BHG, but there's an Eye just past them before they can get near the ARS planet. I need materials, so no reason to keep donating them to the enemy until my Raid SS armada is built.
2:11:30 Leftovers from before I reset it pissed off an EMP guardian coming down from the Fact IV through the AI Eye world. Redirect AGAIN to intercept this EMP before it does something annoying.
2:13:00 Wow, they really pissed off something heavily dug in. Over 600 ships are trying to get out of there. The kids are explaining things to them, using a bit of the ultraviolence.
2:14:00 the Raid Armada is ready and Cookie Monster just invaded the attack path. Well, that'll slow things up a bit, but it'll keep him busy for a minute or 10.
2:14:30 Heh, he moved on, interesting.
Raids are on their way to go remove that last Eye in the Backyard via Deepstrike, then we'll head into the Maze.
2:16:00 Ah, much better. Raids are at 50% on the SpireShield. No more twiddling my thumbs waiting for that to finish. Threat's not going through the roof so I'll be alright.
2:17:30 Finish the Eye cleanup with only 500 or so threat built up. Good enough.
2:18:30 Not sure how, but apparently the kids when they went through popped EVERY guardpost the Eye had on Neverending story in the back of the Maze. Well, ain't that nice. Redirect them to the Fact IV system back there and keep pushing scouts.
2:20:00 2 AI Eye Worlds in range of Kerensky's step-stone in the Maze, Blackstone and Huge. Raids go to work.
2:20:30 EMP warning on some random planet. Pause. Find planet, realize my Raids annoyed it and let it loose, they chase.
2:21:00 They catch it, and head back to work.
2:22:00 Find another ARS in the Maze. One world left to scout. No AI HW here. Both AIs are deep in Bob.
2:24:00 Raids finish with first world. Head home to JJ for repairs, took a bit of a beating from a local Fort.
2:28:00 Kids finish with the Fact IV world in the back of the Maze. I sic them on the fortress that beat up my Raid SSs and then will have them finish clearing out the entrance to the Maze.
2:30:00 Raids reach Blackstone. Pause. Primary pathing to Orbital Mass Driver, the killer of Raids. Then path them through all the guardposts, including *2* counterstrike posts. After this there's one more AI Eye in the Maze/Southwest entry area, and then they'll have to swing around the back of it to clear out another one. The Kids will keep everything busy in the meanwhile. Once the Counterstrike gets close I'll worry about repositioning things.
Time for a break. I've cleared out three entire sectors of the map and another two are half complete. Complete nerfage. This is intense, though, if you've noticed my time markers. Took me a bit to get going at full steam, had a few fumbles really early. Part of that was laughing too hard, though. :)
I have 12 Space Docks pumping out the Nienzuls to keep up with their load and inflated caps. They can swarm, well, anything. It's just NASTY. I'm half tempted to put this build up against Raid Engines or Technologies just to see what happens. Maybe after I finish this up.
At my present speed I think I might finish this game in 6 hours.
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hehe this game sounds to be fun. I should really also make use of the harvester upgrades. I may actually get that 10/10 8 homeworld achiev.
Why did you change your nickname btw GUDare? Now people will get confused :P
To remove confusion, one must first confuse everyone. I prefer this as my screen name actually. Just forgot to check for availability after I'd built my sign on.
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2:32:00 Pop both of the Counters with the raids and they both go to the same homeworld, one with little defenses. I'll have to send the swarm there for defense. Raids head home for refit and repair, lost a few.
The swarm continues to eat systems. The Raids get ready to head for the back of the maze to clean out more eyes.
2:33:00 Pause for a moment to do redirections of the swarm and compute '4 out' distances. Send the Raid Swarm after an AI Eye world I'd missed that was closer at the SW/Maze junction. It's a heavy system.
2:35:00 Forced to pop ANOTHER counter to clear an AI Eye world. This one heads for Jumping Jax. 3 Counterstrikes currently queued up, about 1000 ships in total. Also popped another Data Center.
Redirect the swarm into a scour/defensive pattern.
2:36:00 the raids start working yet another spire shield post.
2:37:30 The Raids are done, head home for repair/refit. I sic the 'leftover' swarm on an AI Eye planet for giggles, maybe they'll kill something.
6 and a half mins or so till first counterstrikes start to land.
2:39:00 Nope, not really. About 20% off a Spire Shield IV. Defensive runs will clean out the inbound threat.
2:40:00 Raids hit next 'rear' world in Maze to remove AI Eye. SuperFort + Fort here, careful Shift-Pathing to avoid as much as possible and clear. For once, no spireshield.
2:42:00 Raids move on with 24 left to the next world over with an AI Eye. All planets in Maze, Southwest, Backyard, and Homeland are now picketed with scouts.
2:45:00 the second counterstrike managed to pop one of the Human Home Settlements on SolarMoon, lousy rugrats. Put up a few gravs to help avoid that next time.
Raids are still working on that spireshield IV...
2:46:00 Raids finally done, head home for Repair/Refit. One more Counterstrike to deal with.
2:47:00 A couple of places in the Maze I can't reach without deepstrike, central as well, time to investigate planets. I think I'll still hit Blackstone for its D-Class CSG in the middle of the Maze.
Drop a few Gravs around Jumping Jax's HW cmd to make sure the vulture flock doesn't get naughty again. All swarmers are being FRD'd local for now.
2:48 Raid SSs head out to pop Blackstone.
2:50 Counterstrike stoppage most successful. Blackstone popped. AIP at 87. Send the swarm in for final clearance of the Maze.
2:52:30 Raid SSs finish clearing out the last AI Eye in the Maze. With the swarm mapped to eventually hit all necessary targets down there, Raids head home for the moment to refit/resupply.
2:54:00 Raids head to Eaglecraft to deal with a minor (40 ship) drifter invasion.
Then they head to pop the Eye in Central.
2:56:00 Eaglecraft drifters are becoming more numerous. Redirect Swarm Flow to deal with invasion angle through Sushi insead of long way around.
2:58:00 Raids ar emapped to kill and then pound spireshield, ignored while I send Engi IIIs to Eaglecraft for FF/repairs, then send home.
3:00:00 Raids finish up with the spireshield on Syphon in Central, but the Eye doesn't fall. Great, there must be a stealth post that I can't see because the 'cloaked list' is too long and falls off the bottom of the screen. Probably near the fortress just hanging out in the middle of nowhere. Go pull a few Scout SS's over to see if we can find it.
3:01:00 Yup, that's where it was, lost four starships for my troubles there too.
There being no more AI Eye systems to take until Skye, the raids head for JJ. Skye is a cutoff system in Central that will separate Bob from everything else and carries an E-Class CSG. Perfect for my usage, in theory.
Pausing the game to look at options for Fact IVs, there's nothing 'perfect'. There's the one in Central but that's pretty open and I'd originally hoped to be able to build the SwarmBuilders on a system with a Fact IV leading into Bob. That leaves me only a few options. A close up of the Central systems:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/DH-CentralCloseup.png)
So, my choices are Syphon or HotSauce. However, Nero has a CSG-C on it, something else i still need to pop. I really don't care much about fabs at the moment. Hm. With HotSauce doing mass swarm production and Nero doing defender fleet production, I could hold the two systems as long as I pop gates on Skye and Davion. That'll also give me a nice forward step-stone into Bob, because for Bob, you need a step ladder of somekind to really reach deeply into him.
At a guess, the Dyson's waaaay in the back of Bob, which isn't usually where I'd expect to find a large ball but whatever. There's a small section of red-worlds on my map of unexplored planets in Bob that I'm assuming is the Dyson Ball.
That'll just leave me the ARS's I've found already to consume once the defensive point is in play and I should be good to go. I really want to move the Whipping Boy as AIP goes up simply out of self perservation. AIP is currently 92 and I've only found 3 of the 4 CoPs.
So, I'm thinking my Raids deepstrike Nero, pop it, take out the warp-gate on Hot Sauce and Skye. Remove the AI eyes on Skye and HotSauce, too. ... You know, this damned galaxy has a LOT of AI Eyes. No wonder I don't feel eye removal to be a special case scenario.
Anyway, with that done, I'll wait for wave hits and proceed to take the defensive fleet out to Nero with some colony ships. The stolen Engi IIIs can catch up on arrival. With that built, I'll move the turretball to Nero against Irian, drop in the necessary FFs and Mil I, and pop the warpgate on NoWayOut that leads into the homelands.
From there, I'll begin assaults from the homeland on the ARS facilities that I want to hack. Because of the hacking, I don't want to move the swarm-builders yet. Besides, I need enough K to bring something up to MK III before I worry about MK IV ships anyway.
That's 4.5 planets (+ SF posts and random trash) worth of AIP increase. That's gonna need to be a powerful chokepoint at Nero. Maybe I'll invest a hair into Basic IIs and HBC Is for the 1250 K I've still got left since the 6k is two worlds no matter what. Oh, I still need to research-raid Blackstone since I popped it, too.
Yeah, that should work.
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they connect through Blade Spawners?
Didn't notice that, actually ;)
*whips out a gun and fires, a set of antenna falls in the front row* SETTLE DOWN!
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
What are we, interior designers?
At least the AI got all the telephone santizers in the first attack.
Anyway, we're naming that Bob.
I hope you have enough perfectly-normal-beast to keep the kids fed.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/DH-Seriously.png)
It may as well just say +(ALL of it)/s.
That's with 60x Engi Is on the Neinzul builders and 30 on the MK I standard fleet builders.
Oh good grief.
Building off 150 Lightnings, 150 Flaks, 300 or so Snipers, AND keeping up all the neinzul + Standard fleet. Now, THAT will chew into your economy!
Particularly simultaneously with over 130 Engi Is going all over the place. XD
I had faith you'd find some way to spend it. Kinda had my money on "Sculpture designed to keep up relations with opponent, cast from solid block of ZPGs".
BWAHAHAH, at 21:00 or so the Devourer moved into Ceasar, trying to eat the neverending Neinzul flood.
What should have happened:
"Tooooo mannnny Cooooookies!" (screen whiteout) ***BLUH-KOOOOOOM*** (polite golf clap from Hybrids)
On Chaos March in the backyard I found the counter to the NEinzul Swarm. Ever run headfirst into an AI Eye on a MK IV world with 2000 ships?
Now that could go in the dictionary entry for hard counter.
FRD swarms advancing without scouting on 9/9. And there's still human life in the galaxy. Clearly an imbalance is afoot ;)
this is like watching a pirahna attack...
You should have seen the first iteration of the Neinzul Viral Clusters/Shredders. Uncapped exponential growth. Attacking both human and AI (iirc). They could be stopped relatively easily early on if you were focused, and only from range. I have never felt a stronger sense of "kill them before they reach the blob! KILL THEM BEFORE THEY REACH THE BL-AAAGGH!". Then the sky-blackening swarm spread a few more planets towards my homeworld and then the application ran out of memory.
I think he's somewhere between TripleChocolateChip heaven and frickin' confused.
I'm not sure the two states are distinguishable in this case.
I also poke around and pick up the one-off reclaimed units like paralyzers and tank units that my little nanos tend to leave behind.
They were always the sloppy kid, leaving stuff on the plate.
If there was ever a game I wanted Mirrors, this is probably it.
The blob will look rather funhouse indeed. Or slaughterhouse; mirrors are so hard to keep clean.
2:10:00 This is getting UGLY. I think I'll hold but they're breaking through the lines. I can't move the homeworld station or I'd get it a LOT further from this wormhole.
You getting sloppy is the AI's only hope ;)
This is intense, though, if you've noticed my time markers.
Seriously. The swarm has eaten over half the galaxy in less time then you spent using the Dyson as a spectator sport in the last one ;)
I have 12 Space Docks pumping out the Nienzuls to keep up with their load and inflated caps. They can swarm, well, anything. It's just NASTY. I'm half tempted to put this build up against Raid Engines or Technologies just to see what happens. Maybe after I finish this up.
It would be interesting to see just how broken the multi-HW / hilariously OP harvester upgrades / youngling combo is. My guess is either against a Core and a Warp-Jumper on 2x Unannounced Waves for serious chaos-hammers coming down all the time or 2 Neinzul-Nesters and turning on Hybrids and Advanced Hybrids (might turn off Dyson), roaming enclaves, neinzul preservation wardens, marauders for a truly thematically appropriate opponent ;)
There's a small section of red-worlds on my map of unexplored planets in Bob that I'm assuming is the Dyson Ball.
I don't think the dyson alerts show up, but I could be wrong. My guess is the devourer, unless that's already accounted for by current scout pickets.
You know, this damned galaxy has a LOT of AI Eyes. No wonder I don't feel eye removal to be a special case scenario.
Hmm, some AI types get more than others. I'm guessing it's the Baron.
That's 4.5 planets (+ SF posts and random trash) worth of AIP increase. That's gonna need to be a powerful chokepoint at Nero. Maybe I'll invest a hair into Basic IIs and HBC Is for the 1250 K I've still got left since the 6k is two worlds no matter what. Oh, I still need to research-raid Blackstone since I popped it, too.
Yeah, that should work.
Defense? You have piranhas.
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What are we, interior designers?
At least the AI got all the telephone santizers in the first attack.
Starship B. Gotta love it. Anyone seen my ducky?
I hope you have enough perfectly-normal-beast to keep the kids fed.
And three sandwich maker assistants.
I had faith you'd find some way to spend it. Kinda had my money on "Sculpture designed to keep up relations with opponent, cast from solid block of ZPGs".
If I had more than 5 homeworlds, might be worth a shot.
Now, doing it with turrets sounds fun, actually... I never was that good with ASCII art though.
Now that could go in the dictionary entry for hard counter.
FRD swarms advancing without scouting on 9/9. And there's still human life in the galaxy. Clearly an imbalance is afoot ;)
LOL, ya think? :-X
You should have seen the first iteration of the Neinzul Viral Clusters/Shredders. Uncapped exponential growth. Attacking both human and AI (iirc). They could be stopped relatively easily early on if you were focused, and only from range. I have never felt a stronger sense of "kill them before they reach the blob! KILL THEM BEFORE THEY REACH THE BL-AAAGGH!". Then the sky-blackening swarm spread a few more planets towards my homeworld and then the application ran out of memory.
Um... ow?
The blob will look rather funhouse indeed. Or slaughterhouse; mirrors are so hard to keep clean.
Windex. Lots and lots of Windex. Time to get out the stock investment guide. Who owned them again...?
The swarm has eaten over half the galaxy in less time then you spent using the Dyson as a spectator sport in the last one ;)
Ayup. :) The swarm produces faster and doesn't end up 1-shotted to death at wormholes. :)
It would be interesting to see just how broken the multi-HW / hilariously OP harvester upgrades / youngling combo is. My guess is either against a Core and a Warp-Jumper on 2x Unannounced Waves for serious chaos-hammers coming down all the time or 2 Neinzul-Nesters and turning on Hybrids and Advanced Hybrids (might turn off Dyson), roaming enclaves, neinzul preservation wardens, marauders for a truly thematically appropriate opponent ;)
Would definately turn off the Dyson for that, but yeah. I need to play a match against the warp-jumper eventually, so we'll see. The Dual Neinzul Nesters could be fun. When I started this I had no idea just how effective it was going to be, I'd thought of it more of as a joke than a serious tactic. If I do it again against different AIs I'll most likely crank up the inventory of sub-plots.
I don't think the dyson alerts show up, but I could be wrong. My guess is the devourer, unless that's already accounted for by current scout pickets.
Ah! You're quite right, forgotten he'd wandered off somewhere.
Hmm, some AI types get more than others. I'm guessing it's the Baron.
Nah, this is actually about average I think for Vanilla too. There's just a LOT of them. Too many in my personal opinion for something that should be a 'special event' and not a 'every fourth system' kind of thing.
Defense? You have piranhas.
Heh, yeah, but they're busy doing other things, and the AI's gonna get a Tech II bump along the way here eventually...
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I've only recently figured out how much fun the neinzul are to play with. I didn't grok them for a long time. "Disposable Heroes" is so apt a description it makes me want to weep that I didn't think of it myself.
I salute you, sir, for your quite ridiculous and entertaining epic. I look forward to its continuation and eventual conclusion.
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Windex. Lots and lots of Windex.
'twas terribly disappointing to discover vacuum instead of ether. Time to fix that.
The Dual Neinzul Nesters could be fun.
For the readers, at least. Been a while since I saw a Neinzul Nester in action, but it's not entirely dissimilar from raid engines everywhere. But unannounced, and all neinzul, all the time.
Nah, this is actually about average I think for Vanilla too. There's just a LOT of them. Too many in my personal opinion for something that should be a 'special event' and not a 'every fourth system' kind of thing.
I think it's partly difficulty related, but yea.
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3:05:00 My Mercs destroyed my econ again, but I'm up to ~300 Merc Fighters now.
Sending in scout teams to cover my deep strike against Central.
3:09:00 Pop the Counterstrike on Nero and the Cmd Station to prep the location of the whipping boy and to let my raids do their anti AI-Eye work without incurring heavier deep strike. The kids have been having a very long argument with a SuperFort + Fort back in the Maze and have finally managed to clear it, and are working the final systems.
3:11:00 A 4500 ship wave announces at 97 AIP, about 30 seconds after I popped another Data Center down in central. The Raids are hung up on another spireshield.
3:13:00 The wave starts breaking the front line and I'm not gaining numerical advantage. In fear, I redirect the swarm through Ceasar for additional defensive firepower. I really need to move the whipping boy.
3:14:30 Phew, that worked, but I had to remap again because just 'tagging the wormhole' and reversing won't allow your patrolling FRDs to acquire targets, they have to pass through the system. Good to go now though. I'll leave the pathing as is for now. Whoops, haven't checked on raids in a bit...
3:15:00 Hm, crap. HotSauce has a Fortress under SpireShieldpost. Not sure what I'm going to do with this but I certainly can't use the raids. Bomber SS I guess.
3:17:00 Apparently I can't drive, i got the entire Raid Armada blown to pieces. Rats.
3:19:00 Kids are still dealing with the maze and another SuperFort. Almost done though, then I can turn them against Central.
3:22:00 Found the first coreworld on Draconis in the left hand side of Bob. At a guess, the HW is right behind it in Canopus. One found... and a lot closer to the chokepoint than I'd figured.
3:24:00 Part of the problem is the distance the swarm is traveling to get down into the final corners of the maze. I'll need to keep this in mind when I go for hacks. I may want to work backwards from there out due to increasing hack strength.
ARS 3 is Paralyzers, Polarizers, and Acid Sprayers. Of them, I want to try playing with the Paralyzers on the whipping boy defenses.
ARS 4 is Teleport Raiders, Snipers, and Grenade Launchers. 2/3 ain't bad, no hack. Looking forward to next update where I know what I'll get.
3:26:30 Economy is ruined due to bomber SS and Raid SS builds. The 130 Engineers of mixxed marks are certainly applying their weight... :)
3:28:00 Cookie starts eating the line marching into the Maze back in a Maze system. I ignore it for now.
3:32:00 AIP 98 5000+ ship wave announces for Ceasar. I really probably should have used low-caps for this game.
Redirect the swarm to go through Ceasar enroute to final target.
3:37:00 Omg. That was inane. Captured 1000+ troops though.
May start leaving the Parasites on the whipping boy.
Kids are finally done with the SuperFort, start shipping them along the Central line to finish cleanups and invade Bob a bit.
3:41:00 Brought a full bank of MLRS (310) online in Ceasar in response to a 3.5k ship raid coming in. Kids are not redirected yet.
3:43:00 That helped tremendously. Stopped cold with fleet assistance.
3:48:30 Finally, got the bombers/raids built. Another 2500 ship wave inbound. Building up cash again for the whipping boy move and letting the kids get what they can done out in Bob. Another SuperFort just inside the entryway is taking up some time.
3:49:30 Bomber SS Fleet arrives at HotSauce, and begin attempts to remove fortress/spire combo.
Add: Working nicely.
3:52:00 Raids begin escort of Colony Ship to Nero to begin preparations for whipping boy build. Won't bring in engies, I left four Ions alive to assist defense.
3:53:00 Confirmed Canopus is AI Homeworld, nothing of particular importance hiding on it like you know, 2x Raid Engine or anything. There, is, however, an AI Eye...
Found Dyson, it's just inside Bob and a bit of a right turn. Not sure if I'll free it yet, purposely not leaving a scout picket there so it'll stay quiet.
3:54:00 20*Bomber SS Is finish up with fort + Spireshield in HotSauce. The Eye still lives! Another blasted Stealth post and I don't have a clue where this one is hiding. Bring up the entire fleet of Scout SS Is.
3:55:00 Pause Mil I construction in Nero. Until I can control wave entry and move things, I don't want it attracting waves.
3:56:00 Pause game. Scout SS are not able to find the blinkin' stealth post. Take all 25 of them and set them up in a formation line and begin slowly trolling through the system.
For amusement value, what that looks like in formation driving:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/Screenshot_2012_03_29_17_59_38.png)
3:57:30 750 ship CPA announced.
<Constantly pausing game to do anything now so I can WATCH the scouts find the stealth<
3:59:00 Re-target the swarm towards the central region of the Central quadrant. Just doing a backfield cleanout.
3:59:30 Find the stealth post as the swarm hits the AI Eye which I forgot I was looking for when I retargetted... *facepalm* Oops. Well, they kill it and the eye in short order. Just need to deal with the 150 threat they woke up. Time to clean out the last warp gate and begin Whipping Boy construction. Will probably continue to pause heavily through this.
4:00:00 Raids head towards home to pop the warp gate. Cookie's closing on Nero, don't want to move defensive fleet yet.
4:00:30 Didn't give myself much choice, Mil I goes up on Nero. Few things happen.
21 captured Engi IIIs head for Nero.
Defensive fleet heads for Nero.
Raid SS head for NoWayOut to pop last warp gate.
I hope the Golem keeps moving somewhere useless.
4:01:00 To be a lovely wiseguy, the AI splits a wave announce between Ceasar and Nero. The turrets can handle Ceasars 2/5s of the wave. Nero, on the other hand, is not going to be reinforced in time except by the kids. I redirect the kids to Nero and to hold there.
4:01:30 A massive bank of gravs, FFs, and Laser Is are dropped on Nero to help delay the inevitable until the swarm can arrive. It wrecks my bank of crystal to 0.
NoWayOut's warp gate is blasted to bits. Raids head back towards Nero.
4:03:00 Waves hit. A stack of ~100 LRMS I steal from Ceasar begins building on Nero. Local Armor Rotters in the Fab also engage the 2000 ships hitting Nero. There's definately not enough firepower here, but the calvary's coming!
4:04:00 It works, the calvalry has arrived, local delaying tactics have saved me. Ceasar obliterated their mere 1200 ships easily. I start moving the entire turret wall to Nero. 3:45 to go on that CPA. I'll start directing the swarm to eat any system with more than 10 enemy ships in it.
... of which there isn't, except along the highway to Nero, so they get pushed into attacking the core of Central again.
4:08:00 Turretball moved, Cookie lands on a homeworld and just inhales the swarm for a bit. I redirect. Main fleet arrives in Nero and I build a local constructor for the defense fleet rebuilds.
4:13:00 The CPA released and very little threat is left to annoy me, most of it ran into the swarm stream. A 4.5k wave is going to Nero shortly but that's expected. My econ's still in the floor though so my lightnings and flaks aren't up yet.
4:15:00 Wave stopped, and Cookie's heading into the swarm-line again, redirect around expected pathing.
4:15:30 Finally, my econ is no longer grounded out. I can do something useful again. Ship-Hacker building, prepping for first ARS hack.
Stopping for the evening, have plans with friends. Finish this up over the weekend most likely.
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I unpacked this map about a week ago in a dual 8/8 game. Won in just over 3 hours. Didn't build a single triangle ship, all neinzul ships and enclaves. Was one of the most hilarious games I've played in a while. Honestly the only thing that could slow down the invasion was the occasional eye, other than that nothing can stop 3000+ neinzul frd'ing into a hapless planet.
I also must say, the new harvesters are ridiculous, particularly on multi homeworld.
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only on multi homeworld actually. I don't think the new harvesters are extremely overpowered in a regular 1 homeworld game. they just feel good.
But yeah, it's funny on multi homeworld lol. Hundreds of thousands of resources in mere minutes.
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3:17:00 Apparently I can't drive, i got the entire Raid Armada blown to pieces. Rats.
AI traffic ticker: 15-raid pileup on I-285, detour through Caesar, point and laugh.
3:22:00 Found the first coreworld on Draconis in the left hand side of Bob. At a guess, the HW is right behind it in Canopus. One found... and a lot closer to the chokepoint than I'd figured.
Bear in mind that the first HW is put as far as it can get from your HW(s), and the second HW is placed such that its distance from your homeworld(s) AND its distance from the other AI HW are maximized. At least, I think it's strictly in-order like that.
ARS 3 is Paralyzers, Polarizers, and Acid Sprayers. Of them, I want to try playing with the Paralyzers on the whipping boy defenses.
Lately feedback seems to indicate that paralyzers are pretty brutal since they learned how to target.
May start leaving the Parasites on the whipping boy.
I think I heard something about a 750 ship Cross Planet AttackDonation coming sometime soon.
I left four Ions alive to assist defense.
Do the Ions even fire anymore? "Why kill them? It only encourages them."
With your econ, I imagine a pirahna defense's dps actually goes up when the AI starts killing them by the hundred, simply because building a new ship is faster than reloading.
For amusement value, what that looks like in formation driving:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/Screenshot_2012_03_29_17_59_38.png)
"Alright you morons, turn off your tachyon beams and I'll hear when you ram it."
local delaying tactics have saved me
Iirc, speedbuilding a space dock and using that+engies to speedbuild frd nanoswarms just confuses the AI no end.
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This map is hilarious-fun, seeing all the neinzuls work together... With most seeds you'll get only one or two unlocks and it's harder to FRD-one's way to the AI homeworld without the numbers (Tigers do better since they can trivially take on the common emplacements: Ions and Fortresses, ala Struggling Khan's concurrent game (http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,10092.0.html)).
ARS 3 is Paralyzers, Polarizers, and Acid Sprayers. Of them, I want to try playing with the Paralyzers on the whipping boy defenses.
Lately feedback seems to indicate that paralyzers are pretty brutal since they learned how to target.
Oh they are. Beats the daylight out of Gravity Rippers with their special ability, sitting in a forcefield pretending to be EMP turrets... I reckon no one would care if they were nerfed to a DPS of 1 as long as they keep firing.
May start leaving the Parasites on the whipping boy.
I think I heard something about a 750 ship Cross Planet AttackDonation coming sometime soon.
The AI is very generous with their regular donations and is my favourite sponsor of Free Ships (TM), although the Cookie Monster sure feels like the tax department in this regard, swooping in at random intervals.
AI War Economics look like this: AI wave (primary industry) -> Player with reclamation (middle-class) -> Cookie Monster (government).
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I unpacked this map about a week ago in a dual 8/8 game. Won in just over 3 hours. Didn't build a single triangle ship, all neinzul ships and enclaves. Was one of the most hilarious games I've played in a while. Honestly the only thing that could slow down the invasion was the occasional eye, other than that nothing can stop 3000+ neinzul frd'ing into a hapless planet.
I also must say, the new harvesters are ridiculous, particularly on multi homeworld.
Hm, I've been running into multiple Eyes blocking me. Otherwise, 6 hours seems more likely. 3? Hm, I'm doing it wrong I guess.
Possibly typing too much and micro-ing too little. Well, we'll see. I'm having fun with it so I guess that's all that matters. I fear getting too sloppy after the opening salvos though.
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With your econ, I imagine a pirahna defense's dps actually goes up when the AI starts killing them by the hundred, simply because building a new ship is faster than reloading.
For the Tigers, that's actually possible...
"Alright you morons, turn off your tachyon beams and I'll hear when you ram it."
I'm still chuckling at that, but it's pretty appropriate. The Scout Tachyons are practically hull - distance. Higher levels are better, of course, but 2k meters? Yeah. It's like sonar on a deaf bat with an earhorn. " 'eh, what sonny?" *THUD* "Oh, TREEE, right."
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only on multi homeworld actually. I don't think the new harvesters are extremely overpowered in a regular 1 homeworld game. they just feel good.
But yeah, it's funny on multi homeworld lol. Hundreds of thousands of resources in mere minutes.
Yeah. "Watcha do, rob a bank?" "No, we ARE the bank, now pay up."
I can't wait to let these loose on an 8xHomeworld FS campaign. Half tempted to do it against Scorched Earth or something for giggles. "No econ? LOL, here, let me show you how much your 'lack of supply' means you bastage! CHARRGE!"
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Yeah. "Watcha do, rob a bank?" "No, we ARE the bank, now pay up."
I can't wait to let these loose on an 8xHomeworld FS campaign. Half tempted to do it against Scorched Earth or something for giggles. "No econ? LOL, here, let me show you how much your 'lack of supply' means you bastage! CHARRGE!"
Well, I know what I'm doing next :D
*edit* Can you even build spire cities when you don't have supply?
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only on multi homeworld actually. I don't think the new harvesters are extremely overpowered in a regular 1 homeworld game. they just feel good.
I'm playing a game with them right now, and yeah, they feel really good. They feel so good I decided to work some things out myself. I know this was discussed elsewhere, but I played some, went back and reread the numbers, added some assumptions of my own...
1. The aforementioned homeworld. Homeworlds have either 12 or 13 harvesters. Going from 20 to 73 each is a 53 res/sec increase. Multiply by 12 in the worst case and you have a free 636 res/s additional income that you can unlock as soon as the game starts.
2. Did I mention you can unlock it as soon as the game starts? At least with econ IIIs you have to cap a planet first.
3. If a planet has 4 harvesters, it's automatically better. Assuming 2/2 for simplicity, you get 146/146 m/c per sec. How is that better than 160? Because you haven't factored in the additional resources from the command station that you have to place. Econ Is give 30/30, bringing you up to 176/176. Mils and Log Is are slightly worse, but bring other benefits. And if you unlock higher-level command stations, the margin just goes up.
4. You know planets with ARSs? Those tend to have 5-6 harvesters, and you have to take them. Even if core shield gens didn't exist, they'd still be well worth the AIP for the ship and the resources. That's an extra 70 or 140 res/s per ARS planet, of which there are usually... 5 or 6 across the game?
5. Advanced Fac planets spawn with additional harvesters too, iirc? Or maybe I'm just getting lucky.
6. Previous discussion talked more about the average number of harvesters per planet, not counting homeworlds. I think it was 3? Well, you can skip 99% of the 1-2 harvester worlds, but you're predisposed to capture worlds with lots of harvesters.
So basically, the new harvesters are almost strictly better than econ IIIs even in a single-homeworld game. They give you 600 income completely free from the start of the game and still outperform econ IIIs on average in the rest of the game. And you don't use up a command station slot. That last bit alone should be cause to make them a good deal worse than Econ IIIs (you can still get lots of income from your chokepoint world that has a Mil III), but they're still better. It's just... wow.
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only on multi homeworld actually. I don't think the new harvesters are extremely overpowered in a regular 1 homeworld game. they just feel good.
I'm playing a game with them right now, and yeah, they feel really good. They feel so good I decided to work some things out myself. I know this was discussed elsewhere, but I played some, went back and reread the numbers, added some assumptions of my own...
1. The aforementioned homeworld. Homeworlds have either 12 or 13 harvesters. Going from 20 to 73 each is a 53 res/sec increase. Multiply by 12 in the worst case and you have a free 636 res/s additional income that you can unlock as soon as the game starts.
2. Did I mention you can unlock it as soon as the game starts? At least with econ IIIs you have to cap a planet first.
3. If a planet has 4 harvesters, it's automatically better. Assuming 2/2 for simplicity, you get 146/146 m/c per sec. How is that better than 160? Because you haven't factored in the additional resources from the command station that you have to place. Econ Is give 30/30, bringing you up to 176/176. Mils and Log Is are slightly worse, but bring other benefits. And if you unlock higher-level command stations, the margin just goes up.
4. You know planets with ARSs? Those tend to have 5-6 harvesters, and you have to take them. Even if core shield gens didn't exist, they'd still be well worth the AIP for the ship and the resources. That's an extra 70 or 140 res/s per ARS planet, of which there are usually... 5 or 6 across the game?
5. Advanced Fac planets spawn with additional harvesters too, iirc? Or maybe I'm just getting lucky.
6. Previous discussion talked more about the average number of harvesters per planet, not counting homeworlds. I think it was 3? Well, you can skip 99% of the 1-2 harvester worlds, but you're predisposed to capture worlds with lots of harvesters.
So basically, the new harvesters are almost strictly better than econ IIIs even in a single-homeworld game. They give you 600 income completely free from the start of the game and still outperform econ IIIs on average in the rest of the game. And you don't use up a command station slot. That last bit alone should be cause to make them a good deal worse than Econ IIIs (you can still get lots of income from your chokepoint world that has a Mil III), but they're still better. It's just... wow.
I sense a 5.033 nerf.
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I sense a 5.033 nerf.
Ho yea.
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Actually, I can't do math.
3. If a planet has 4 harvesters, it's automatically better. Assuming 2/2 for simplicity, you get 146/146 m/c per sec. How is that better than 160? Because you haven't factored in the additional resources from the command station that you have to place. Econ Is give 30/30, bringing you up to 176/176. Mils and Log Is are slightly worse, but bring other benefits. And if you unlock higher-level command stations, the margin just goes up.
160 is the baseline for econ III planets? Nah. Forgot to factor in the 20 income from baseline harvesters.
Actual values are 73*numHarv + 60 vs 20*numHarv + 320. At 4 harvesters it's 352 with harvester upgrades vs 400 with econ IIIs. At 5 it's 405 vs 420.... so it takes 6 harvesters to 'break even' vs econ IIIs with the upgrade.
Except that (almost?) every ARS planet and a number of others have 6 harvesters, you still get a slot to do something different with the command station, you can sustain your income over more than 6 planets, and even if you're stuck with a bunch of one- or two- or three-harvester planets it doesn't come anywhere close to balancing out the free 600 you've been getting from the start of the game. So it's still very superior, just not quite as much.
But mostly, it's just amusing that even though econ IIIs are no longer the obvious beginning opening, you're still stuck spending 9K knowledge on income at the start of the game. =p
playing a disposable heroes game now, and it's entrancing to watch 2000 ships roil over 50 AI ships on low caps while your resource meter is constantly pegging 999,999. would've done this earlier if I'd known the seed also had autobombs. =p
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Damn you guys. I complained about the harvesters being overpowered before it was popular.
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4:18:00 Central core is cleared, redirect swarm towards furthest ARS for first hacking.
Ship-Hacker being guarded by 30 Raid II SSs to make sure nothing ugly happens enroute.
4:20:00 All the areas are reacting to the ship-hacker in transit even when they don't have an ARS on planet. I thought this was corrected?
4:21:00 ARS Hack 1 started.
4:22:00 Hack 1 spawn compositions:
3/31/2012 12:31:13 PM (5.031) 4:21:40 Counter-Saboteur Spawn on Green Lantern (playerNumber:8)
spawnStrength = max(1,(AIDifficulty * Handicap)) * 2.5 = 22.5
kRaidAntagonism = TotalAmountOfKnowledgeRaided * (10000/3000) = 0
kRaidAntagonism *= (8/TotalHumanPlayersThatGetKnowledgeCount) = 0
superTerminalAntagonism = TotalNumberOfSuperTerminalTicks * 1500 = 0
shipDesignHackingAntagonism = if 1 Adv Research Station hacked then 30k, if 2 hacked then 90k, if 3 270k, etc = 0
totalHackingAntagonism = 0
multiplierForSabotageResponseSpawn = max(1,(totalHackingAntagonism-80000)/160000) = 1
spawnStrength *= multiplierForSabotageResponseSpawn = 22.5
maximumNumberOfWildRolls = 1 + (totalHackingAntagonism/40000) = 1
wild-roll:TachyonPulse, spawnStrength = 22.5
spawnedType:MissileShipII quantity:5 (strength-each:2)
spawnedType:BomberII quantity:3 (strength-each:2)
spawnedType:ZenithViralShredderII quantity:3 (strength-each:2)
spawnedType:ZenithParalyzerII quantity:1 (strength-each:2)
4:25:00 Build another Ship-Hacker at JJ to make sure I don't have to travel this one back through enemy territory after the huge increase in Hacking.
Shove said Ship-Hacker in a transport.
4:26:00 5 minutes to go. Twiddle.
4:29:00 Pickup all the support units (rebuilders and Engi IIIs) that have been left behind by the swarm and ship to Nero. Twiddle for another 2 minutes.
4:30:00 Cookie's threatening the defensive fleet at Nero, not much I can do about that. Guess I'll rebuild later. Going to stuff them in the central core and hope he passes us by.
4:31:00 Cookie is helping kill the wave on Nero and most of the fleet escaped to HotSauce. Hacking done, blow up the ship-hacker. redirect swarm to second hack location.
4:32:00 Cookie's moved back up into the Bob region, and the defensive fleet comes home to finish cleanup work.
4:33:00 Second Hack begun.
3/31/2012 12:47:47 PM (5.031) 4:33:00 Counter-Saboteur Spawn on Confederation (playerNumber:8)
spawnStrength = max(1,(AIDifficulty * Handicap)) * 2.5 = 22.5
kRaidAntagonism = TotalAmountOfKnowledgeRaided * (10000/3000) = 0
kRaidAntagonism *= (8/TotalHumanPlayersThatGetKnowledgeCount) = 0
superTerminalAntagonism = TotalNumberOfSuperTerminalTicks * 1500 = 0
shipDesignHackingAntagonism = if 1 Adv Research Station hacked then 30k, if 2 hacked then 90k, if 3 270k, etc = 30000
totalHackingAntagonism = 30000
multiplierForSabotageResponseSpawn = max(1,(totalHackingAntagonism-80000)/160000) = 1
spawnStrength *= multiplierForSabotageResponseSpawn = 22.5
maximumNumberOfWildRolls = 1 + (totalHackingAntagonism/40000) = 1
wild-roll:ShortRangeWarpJump, spawnStrength = 22.5
spawnedType:ZenithViralShredderII quantity:1 (strength-each:2)
spawnedType:MissileShipII quantity:3 (strength-each:2)
spawnedType:FighterII quantity:3 (strength-each:2)
spawnedType:BomberII quantity:3 (strength-each:2)
spawnedType:ZenithParalyzerII quantity:2 (strength-each:2)
Still good to go. Probably could have done both at once. Will remember.
4:38:00 Twiddle. Stop using nano-parasites in the swarm and use them on the Whipping Boy. Dig deeper into Bob with the scout armada.
4:39:30 In preparation of taking the ARS systems, the Raids go out warp-gate hunting.
4:43:00 Ship Design Hack complete, blow up the hacker. Blow the local cmd-station and prepare a colony ship.
4:45:00 All cmd stations with aRS's popped, warp gates popped, AIP at 202. Colony ships enroute and a team of Engi IIIs are standing by to support builds as they appear.
4:48:00 2/3 ain't bad, but I still got Teleport Raiders. Ah well. Toss 'em in the swarm I guess.
4:53:00 Trying to soak the K off Blackstone which I'd just neutraled earlier, 1/5 of a wave heads for it. Redirect the kids there. I've built out 125 Grenade Thrower Vs and 5 Blade Spawner Vs for the Whipping Boy from Fabs, and dropped a Fab Warp Gate on Nero to make sure they get where they needed to be.
Almost done in the backfield. Fact IV and setup on HotSauce next then we chew up Bob.
4:55:00 While defending from the wave, I blow the cmd station to not have to do this twice if they back-to-back on me.
4:57:00 The wave bled out to the Blade Spawner V ARS world and managed to clean it off before the swarm could defend it. Still have a Spider V fab there I missed earlier that I'd like to protect, depends on what the swarm pulls off.
... No joy, they got caught up on the tail of the wave and couldn't get to the ones hitting the system.
4:58:30 Swarm was able to finish cleanup before they got to the Grenade Spawners. Little bit left I guess, oh well. Rebuild the other system since I already warp-gate cleaned it and i'll let it sit. REdirect the swarm into Bob.
5:00 Use some of my 16,000 K to bring Nanites and Tigers to Grade III. Realize that wasn't the brightest considering the MK IV factory I'm about to take, but I'll live.
Swarm is stuck on a threatball hanging out in Irian (Nero's Wave feeder). It'll break eventually, not worried.
5:01:00 Game is starting to get really chewy on wave arrivals. REALLY shoulda went lowcap. AIP is 227, AIs are at Tech II. Time to tag a few more data centers/hit the CPs.
threatball in Irian is RUNNING, not assisting. LOL.
5:03:00 HotSauce and Fact IV conquered, begin moving swarm-spawn secondary units. Shut down space docks on JJ in case of horrible failure of intent.
5:04:00 HotSauce is built up with 15 Space Docks, 100 Engi Is, 27 Engi IIIs, and Cockroaches are brought up to MK III/IV. An FRD path through most of the visible planets is built for them to clean up a massive swath. Mirrors and Teleport Raiders are included in the swarm.
5:05:00 An attempt to send the raids out to get the Cps ends badly as they jam against the threatball in Irian and a grav guardian. Retreat before they get wasted and ruin my econ.
5:07:30 Finally the swarm broke the threat-ball on Irian. The Teleport Raiders on FRD are nearly useless, they don't stop long enough to acquire targets. Deactivate the raiders from the swarm build. They're basically just annoying a bunch of neinzul spawner posts.
5:08:00 My econ finally tanks just building 'normally'. It's about due... XD
5:10 I put up regen chambers for the parasites in Nero. It'll screw up the swarm attacks but I need to get the econ a chance to breathe. I'll blow them later.
5:14:00 Achievement Gained: What have we done.
3/4 CoPs destroyed.
5:15:00 A bomber that I didn't notice that the raids woke up hunting CPs down takes out Kerensky's Econ I. Oh drat. Deal with that shortly.
5:15:30 4th CP down, 171 AIP.
Cookie's in Irian screwing with the swarm. Deactivate the swarm build until he passes by.
5:16:00 Cookie heads to Nero, defense fleet runs for its life.
5:18:00 Cookie's headed off. start building tele raiders on the whipping boy as a fast-response defense force to avoid cmd center loss in the future.
5:19:30 Econ's repaired, reactivate the swarm generators.
5:24:00 Rear random drifters keep annoying my back-systems. Everyone gets 10-20 Basic Is.
5:26:00 Needing to still pop an E-Class CSG, I take one in the center of Bob. The last HW is in the farthest point of Bob in the upper right. Still still be a bit out of reach, but I'll live with that. I need a neutral up in there.
5:27:30 I blow Dyson's command center for one less problem later.
5:29:00 Scrap 1500 Teleport Raiders just because. Achievement time, chasing the 20k scrapped one.
5:30:00 With the last CSG down, remap the swarm into the AI Eye held HW Canopus. I'll be sending the raids to reinforce once they get there. Waves are interrupting the swarm attacks, but at least no threatball is allowed to live. :)
5:31:00 Instead of trying to defend the satellite jump system, I blow the reactors and the cmd station. Too many enemies nearby and an Ai Eye with counterstrike as well. Don't want to get hung up again.
5:33:00 Swarm hits Canopus. AI Eye is spawning MK IIs, very nice. Swarm might have a chance here. Raids are waiting for refill of lost soldiers.
5:36:00 Change of plans for the raids. Not much left in the AI HW, so they're going to start clearing the swarm path to the fnial HW of Eyes and other assundry annouances, including Data Centers. We're approaching Tech II again.
5:39:00 Blow up another 1400+ Teleport Raiders. Raids are digging around the backfield hunting down low-hanging fruit for ease later.
Swarm is ~70% done on a HW SpireShield/FF V Combo.
5:42:00 Somehow, I lost my Raid Armada again. I have no idea how, they just died in transit home, completely. Well,crap.
That's gonna wreck the econ, 'eh?
5:42:30 Build 600 Metal-> Crystal Converters back on JJ. They'll finish eventually.
5:43:00 Send the 20xBomber SS Fleet to Canopus to help finish the spireshieldpost.
5:44:30 AI Eye on Canopus falls.
5:46:00 Another 1470 Teleport Raiders are scrapped. Woot woot.
5:48:00 Kids finish cleanup in AI HW, leave cmd station. Begin cleanup of path to final HW: Superman.
5:58:00 A massive threat releases in the back, not sure from where. Barely save Confederation, Kerensky fell again.
6:00:00 A 10,000 ship wave hits Nero. The swarm is having significant problems against an AI Eye leading back towards Superman. 15/30 Raids rebuilt.
6:02:00 I stop building MK I Triangle Ships, realizing why I'm not getting any reclamations... D'oh! Stop building MK I Paralyzers, too.
6:03:00 Remnants of the swarm which have been re-directioned to a defensive posture are finally able to clear the AI Eye and 2 MK III FFs from target planet. Popping CMd Station as final jump point.
Finally got a look at Superman. Raid Engine + AI Eye. Sounds familiar.
6:04:00 Send the MK I fleet out on a suicide mission so they can a) get killed for reclamations and b) go do something useful at the same time. Probably will end up running into the Raid Engine... XD
6:06:00 Scrap off another 1400 + Tele Raiders
6:07:00 Raids are 700 ships, roughly. Should be about even with the swarm since they'll be MK IV. This should get lively...
6:08:00 Of course, raid + coreworld vs. swarm was another matter...
Did I mention the AI also has gotten nano-parasites? They tend to chew into the swarm pretty effectively...
6:09:30 Redirect nanoparasites on defense to help with offense. Go get me some MK IV! :)
6:12:00 A couple of swarm ships snuck through and set off the engine again. D'oh!
21 Raid SS's rebuilt so far.
6:15:00 or so. Another 1 weasel gets to Camel and lights up Superman's Raid Engine. Enough of that. All swarms are sent to not go to that planet again until I can get the galaxy to settle down.
6:19:00 It's world war Swarm out in the space between Nero and the homeworld. They've got a wormhole camped and my swarm is just barrelling into them. I fouled up econ briefly so the swarm lost momentum, they're back on track now.
6:21:00 With scrapping another 1400 or so Raiders: Pile 'em on the Heap achievement complete.
That one for reclamation's gonna take a bit, I fear...
6:25:00 Assault on Camel re-ignites. Raid engine gets itself all excited again at the prospect of some more murder.
6:28:00 Assault fails getting chewed on by the Raid, but more of the locals were cleared, and most of a Fort III (there's 2, one under glass) was taken down. Raid SS's are almost ready to be engaged while the swarm distracts. One more run. Swarm redirected to holding position just off Camel.
Second Raid Engine was engaged before all of the swarm was destroyed. Whoops.
6:30:00 For giggles, an 8000 ship wave announces for Nero. Woot woot! *facepalm*
6:32:00 An announcement for 1 Massive ship (0FP) announces. I don't have exos on.
Wha?
6:37:30 Distraction wave hits Raid Engine, Raid SS fly past. Trapped by Grav Guardian. kill Grav and Mass Orbital, run for Raid, pop it.
Most of Raid SS dies to Heavy Beam post. Ow.
Redirect swarm to HW.
6:38:00 Blow up more Tele Raiders.
6:40:00 Realize I'm at 2 million in power and get the hamsters to turn off a ton of reactors.
6:42:00 AIP goes to Tech II, no more reducers available. 6000 ship wave inbound at Nero.
6:42:30 Blow up more Teleport Raiders
6:47:00 HAving sent the majority of the fleet out to die/get reclaimed again, I start building MK I triangles again and open up HBC Is. I then drop the 60 on the whipping boy entry.
6:48:30 CPA announces, 1500 ships or so.
6:50:00 Swarm vs. AI Eye/Homeworld going alright, but losing ground. AI Eye protected by one post at this point, spireshield.
6:51:00 Realize Cookie's on swarm build world. Shut them down, get my econ back into something reasonable.
6:59:00 No signficant progress yet. CPA releases, a lot of little bit here, little bit there threat lights up. Will probably wreck the backfield. Suddenly wish I still had some tele raiders... ;) Though, there's a few things they can't shoot, like Viral Shredders, who are the real danger.
7:03:00 Things are getting dicey in the backfield. I take all my MK II Triangles and send them back towards Eaglecraft to help defend the Homeworld that's getting almost all the action.
Having forgotten about my Merc Fighters, they get involved.
-- No go. Savescum to 7:00, and get the Mercs involved a bit earlier.
7:01:00 The Merc Fighters tear through the offensive concerns. All rear systems are lost. Begin rebuilding process while continuing to sweep for annoyance threat drift.
7:18:00 Still attacking AI HW, still trying to rebuild rear systems. It's becoming a significant hassle.
-- Dinner Break --
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No significant notes. At around 7:30 or so I broke the spire shieldpost on Superman. Then I screwed around for 50 minutes getting the 30,000 ships reclaimed and 20,000 scrapped achievements after blowing up the Command Center. Once I had those, in 1 minute the other command station fell to 30 Raid Starships.
I did go get some more knowledge at one point and had 155 of each mk of lightning turret up. Let's just say it was a VERY pretty light show... once my computer would unjam against 8000 ship waves...
Finally got the devourer beaten, at least.
Hm, I need to win on a 10 planet map. Wonder if I could 8*HW Fallen Spire that... ;D But, where would we build? :o
I may retry this seed with significant opponents/plot items instead next time.
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Congratulations :) Pursuing variety instead of continuing to pave Earth over with a hyperspace bypass, you have consumed the galaxy with unending swarms of ravenous fruit-fly-analogs. Well done.
I may retry this seed with significant opponents/plot items instead next time.
That would be entertaining, I think. Though I imagine the kids would eat the hybrids alive because the hybrids' production infrastructure is accessible. But with roaming enclaves and preservation wardens they could probably put on a lot more pressure. Tossing in Golems-Hard and/or Spirecraft-Hard without using the superweapons would be for the true "swarm beats rock, swarm beats paper, swarm beats scissors" game ;)
And just to make sure it's recorded around here somewhere (probably will put it in a new sticky with the seeds for this game, since folks asked), after finding a seed for Coppermantis's spire-themed game, also found a seed with Blade Spawners, Maws, SSB's, Tractor Platforms, Gravity Drains, and Teleporting Leeches (and gravity rippers incidentally are right next to some of those too, but probably nobody cares about that right now) :
Map Seed: 1243604790
With:
Map Type: Simple
Planet Count: 80
Campaign Type: Conquest
Expansions: all three on
Available Ships: Complex
Cloaking, Teleporting, Parasites, Tractor Beams and Swallowers on (the others may be on or not on at your discretion)
Anyway, I figured someday you'd want to try that one.