Author Topic: Why spell tiers at all ?  (Read 5201 times)

Offline Skaal

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Why spell tiers at all ?
« on: October 08, 2011, 09:48:27 am »
(I'm only civ level 13, so I don't have much exp in this game. Feel free to correct me if my question appears stupid or if I overlooked something)

If I understand the last patch correctly, you can find new tier spellgems each 10 levels.

My suggestion is simple: why not have spell power increase in 10th ? So for instance, a lv 20 spell (found in level 20 chunks) would correspond to the current tier 2 spell. But you could now have a kind of "continuous" progression, with level 13 spellgems in level 13 chunk (being equivalent to tier 1.3), and so on.

The math behind this would not be much more complex than the current one, and you could get rid of the tiers altogether. I think the gameplay would be more streamlined: you simply find gems of higher level as you go, even if the differences would be much smaller than in the current system.

Skaal

Offline superking

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Re: Why spell tiers at all ?
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2011, 10:12:49 am »
I agree that arbitary tiers don't serve much purpose

Offline Itchykobu

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Re: Why spell tiers at all ?
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2011, 10:21:24 am »
I like them as a motivator for exploration. Why explore caves and such to collect gems if you have no real reason to do so? "Explore->Power up->fight next tier of bosses" seems to be the current formula. Having your spells auto-level would hurt that formula.

Offline Nice Save

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Re: Why spell tiers at all ?
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2011, 10:41:05 am »
If you had spell-gems every level, you would never have a full loadout. As you killed bosses on the way to gem veins, you would level up and all your spells would get worse, and you would only have the latest few at max power. As it is now, you can go on expeditions to get some of all 6 gems, then not worry about it again for a while.

Offline Skaal

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Re: Why spell tiers at all ?
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2011, 11:16:32 am »
@Itchykobu: I didn't suggest spell auto-leveling. You would find gemspells in caves exactly as the current system, except you would find gemspell lvl N in chuck lvl N (roughly equivalent to current gemspell lvl int(N/10)).

@Nice Save: I fail to see how having a spell lvl ~ 1.3 could be worse than having a spell lvl 1 and waiting for 10 lvl to be able to upgrade. With the current system, the spells also get worse as you level up. Or am I mistaken ?

With this proposal, you would have spells in between current levels. You would not be worse, but probably slightly better. And the leveling in spell power would be smoother.

Offline stblr

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Re: Why spell tiers at all ?
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2011, 11:16:50 am »
I like that tiers motivate exploration, but I do think they need some tweaking. Balancing spell damage for the middle of a tier (level 5, 15, 25, etc.) would help that. So if you were to find a tier 2 gem at level 10, you'd have a bit of an easier time than normal until it balances out at level 15, with it getting weaker as you get closer to 20. Maybe this is already the case, but it does feel a bit punishing right now because if you're working on your settlement at all, you're leveling very quickly due to simply defending your settlement from rampaging monsters and that's time not spent out in the field collecting replacement gems. I understand it's meant to be a balancing act between building your settlement and going for objectives out in the field, but at the moment I feel a bit punished for working on my settlement at all (especially building up 200 Time Units at a time for some buildings because that translates into 3 or 4 groups of rampaging monsters).

Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: Why spell tiers at all ?
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2011, 11:51:20 am »
I saw the sense in getting away from the previous 5 levels per tier balance, since it would be a constant upgrade battle. But now that I'm pushing the end of a 10 level cycle on my civilization, I'm really seeing how problematic it can be. Once you get around level 7 or 8 of your 10 level cycle,  you're going to be using spells that are mostly outdated and pretty much fully relying on your own inbuilt spellpower to do any damage. And yet you're really not quite tough enough to be going in to caves that are 3 or 4 levels above you and poking around for gems. I'm not entirely sure what needs to be done here, but needing 3 shots of ball lightning to kill espers is getting old...

Offline zebramatt

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Re: Why spell tiers at all ?
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2011, 12:31:26 pm »
Bob, I have a possible solution... but so far it's been met with some conceptual resistance.

Perhaps it'll be food for thought for a better idea, at the very least!  :)

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=4658

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Why spell tiers at all ?
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2011, 01:43:52 pm »
I just started a new world for 0.521 but it hasn't been much fun so far, the lack of gem upgrades until I can deal with level 10 gives me very little to do (and MkI potions aren't worth scavenging for either since they heal so little, never mind that scavenging doesn't give you any XP). Mostly I've been grinding rampaging monsters to get my level up to something useful. With the gem treadmill at least I always had a viable goal around.

Also with the higher upgrade frequency I didn't bother keeping everything upgraded since I didn't need to, spells that are a level too low still work fine.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 01:46:59 pm by KDR_11k »

Offline Hyfrydle

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Re: Why spell tiers at all ?
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2011, 03:12:25 pm »
I also started a new game and didn't have any issues I quite enjoyed the more leisurely progression and not feeling rushed. I guess it depends on each individual gamer what there personal pace preference is.

Offline FallingStar

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Re: Why spell tiers at all ?
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2011, 03:39:35 pm »
I like the tiers personally, and like it better now its to 10 levels, think its a good balance.  A few thoughts I had reading this.

The first issue I see with having gems/potions/ whatnot on every level (other than having level 1000 gems someday) is inventory clutter.  You'd end up with tons of slots of different level gems or potions, making both crafting a pain and force you to spend a bunch of time sorting and dropping junk, rolling over to see whats still useful.

Same thought in a way, tiers stop you from feeling you need to spend a lot of time crafting, which might become important once a wider variety of spells come out.  You just need to worry every few play sessions rather than every hour or whatnot.

Another issue is that, as is, the tier system helps players that want to have a bit of an easier time and play down from their civ level.  Currently if you like to play, say 3 below your civ level, your spells are still full powered from a balance prospective for most of the tier . .and in a way it eases you into playing harder.  Gems every level means your spells would be proportional to the low level, but playing back up to your civ level would be a higher barrier.  Also you'd always be using underpowered gems compared to civ, and thus be taking a penalty to spell power.

I think part of the slowish start spell crafting wise is that there aren't a ton of spells, but you get enough gems to craft what seems like a lot of the useful ones.  Once there's more spells and you need to craft things to account for resistances, you'll need more gems earlier on, which drives you underground faster and thus to killing bosses and leveling, etc.

On an older game with high civ level, its also an interesting choice once you start to get into spells that need rare commodities.  There's been a number of times I wonder if I should build that meteor now, and grind that tower . .or wait 4 levels to make it then, or to do a gem run now and try to grab a higher tier even if it'll use a lot of mana and health pots to grab it.  Once there's more high tier sort of spells, again think that's going to make the differentiation bigger.  I think I'd always "make now" if it was a per-level tier system, and maybe grind more commodity towers as I'd always be ranking up spells.

So I'm pretty strongly for tiers the way things are right now.  I could see some of the suggestions to having higher tier stuff have a chance in the upper end of current tier tunnels (especially if you go down more levels in the underground section) - just to discourage gem runs on lowest tier always . . .but to be honest the exp of killing an over leveled pair of bats is so good, I always fight in chunks a few levels higher, and you can level several times just in getting a few gem deposits.

Anyways, that was long, so thanks if you actually read through it all.

Offline zebramatt

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Re: Why spell tiers at all ?
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2011, 04:12:43 pm »
You're welcome.

And in that case, I find the problem is the inverse: you quickly over-level the tier you were once looking for; and it turns into a bit of a one-man arms race.

Which I'm not actually against, as it's a powerful motivator to keep getting better stuff. But I can imagine it might begin to tire me at some point...

Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: Why spell tiers at all ?
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2011, 04:53:15 pm »
Perhaps the spells just need to grow in power with you as you go from level *1 to level *9, and then start dropping off sharply past that point, encouraging you to move on to the next tier. Nothing drastic, but just a gentle power slope to keep them useful. That way you don't get this old gear problem before you can do anything to solve it.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Why spell tiers at all ?
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2011, 05:13:05 pm »
If you need to be ten levels higher then it's really damn boring once you have your main spells upgraded. Especially at the start of the game where you have plenty of gems there's just no point going into the caves, you won't be able to upgrade from your MkI gems anyway. With the current balancing the level range you can act in is much smaller than the tier difference, often leaving you with no worthwhile gem goals until you've spent some time grinding bosses.

Offline FallingStar

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Re: Why spell tiers at all ?
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2011, 05:28:19 pm »
@BobTheJanitor At least theoretically that's whats happening now, right?  Since your personal spellpower is increasing, your spells are getting more powerful through a tier, up till you hit the next tier and the negative multipliers for old equipment kicks in and it becomes "weak".  It just doesn't look more powerful as your enemies are also increasing power along the same curve.

Plus in general you have to have a pretty big difference in spell power before you actually kill something faster trash mob wise.  Even using over tier gems generally doesn't kill faster (at least that's how it feels to me), until you hit a boss where that extra 20% or whatnot matters. 

I don't know, I still think once more spells in general comes into place, and once more complicated crafted spells come into place it'll feel better.  Like meteor but even more complex - at that point having really powerful spells out of the baseline will seem like a big difference, rather than trying to fit the difference into the baseline of the gem that is applied to everything.

I guess I'm just thinking that if we wait for more variation it'll solve both the gemcrafting in first ten levels feels dry and the spells don't seem to differentiate enough power wise issues, rather than rebalancing it again.  Iono.