Author Topic: Where's the Valley?  (Read 3947 times)

Offline Zozma

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Re: Where's the Valley?
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2012, 03:07:07 pm »
Not to completely derail the discussion and talk about Terraria, but I don't see a problem with stopping updates. It was a complete game when it came out: the updates were a BONUS. I don't see why it's so horrible to want to do something else with your time as a developer. I think the reason was because everyone pegged it as "a 2d minecraft", and minecraft has said from the beginning that they will release free updates 4 lyf.

The thing is, Terraria was supposed to have additional content. There was always a list of objectives for new content floating around. That, and there's no reason to keep playing when you've gotten everything. With Minecraft, the actual exploration proccess in itself was extremely fun. For Terraria, when you run out of a goal to drive you, there's no real reason to play.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Where's the Valley?
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2012, 12:48:21 am »
Ok, gave it some time to hear things out.

Here's the rub:

After a game is 1.0, I am of the opinion you should evaluate a game based on how that is. What I mean is that the game can evolve after this point, but from the buying perspective, one should never assume a plethora of game changing content will occur.

If the game delievers initially what it says it will, well, then you have bought the game for what it was. If you thought the game would be more, then buyer beware and wait to see if desired changes come about. Unless the game says beta, you have no moral expectation that the game will evolve. It could, for sure, but that pesky 1.0 sign is there for a reason. If at any point you like the game enough to buy, great! If not, wait! But don't expect the game to change to your liking. The programmer has no obligation to do so. They really don't. They made their game like they said they would, they said they'd do some additions, but after some additions without additional pay most models indicate a paid expansion or stop updating.

AI war would not nearly have expanded and changed as much as it did without expansions. Why Terraria did not do expansions to help fund additional ideas I don't know. But if the game delivered what it explicitly promised it would then it's the buyer's problem that they bought a quote unquote finished game that wasn't to their taste. If the game promised, explictly, specific things the game would do but later did not then that is the programers fault. But vague extra updates are not a smart reason to buy a game that is not satsifying on its own. This studio did not develop a reputation like Arcen did for updates. To expect this reputation and updates seems to set one up to fail.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Where's the Valley?
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2012, 01:07:14 am »
Ok, gave it some time to hear things out.

Here's the rub:

After a game is 1.0, I am of the opinion you should evaluate a game based on how that is. What I mean is that the game can evolve after this point, but from the buying perspective, one should never assume a plethora of game changing content will occur.

If the game delievers initially what it says it will, well, then you have bought the game for what it was. If you thought the game would be more, then buyer beware and wait to see if desired changes come about. Unless the game says beta, you have no moral expectation that the game will evolve. It could, for sure, but that pesky 1.0 sign is there for a reason. If at any point you like the game enough to buy, great! If not, wait! But don't expect the game to change to your liking. The programmer has no obligation to do so. They really don't. They made their game like they said they would, they said they'd do some additions, but after some additions without additional pay most models indicate a paid expansion or stop updating.

AI war would not nearly have expanded and changed as much as it did without expansions. Why Terraria did not do expansions to help fund additional ideas I don't know. But if the game delivered what it explicitly promised it would then it's the buyer's problem that they bought a quote unquote finished game that wasn't to their taste. If the game promised, explictly, specific things the game would do but later did not then that is the programers fault. But vague extra updates are not a smart reason to buy a game that is not satsifying on its own. This studio did not develop a reputation like Arcen did for updates. To expect this reputation and updates seems to set one up to fail.

It wasnt that the game wasnt good on it's own..... it was that, bizarrely, and unlike most sandboxy games, it just runs out of value INSTANTLY the moment you've done all of the major stuff.  Once you've defeated all of the bosses and have the best tools.... that's it.   Alot of players stop at this point.

Not to mention that, again, the devs said they'd be keeping with the updates for some time...... so someone mighta bought it based on that, thinking "Well, I hear it has no replay value right now..... but if they're gonna do alot of updates, that'll probably change later on.... ok, I'll buy!".

And regardless of wether or not it looks like it's "the buyer's problem", it..... kinda isnt.   It becomes the developer's problem BECAUSE that person with the "buyer's problem" is unlikely to come back to the company.... and these are things a smart developer will think of WAY ahead of time.  If they werent ABSOLUTELY 100% CERTAIN that they were going to keep up the updates for quite awhile to come, they never should have said so, or even hinted at it.  They shoulda said, "Yeah, there might be a couple of updates after launch, but that's it".   Because they didn't, it's GOING to affect sales.   It doesnt have to make sense, and it doesnt matter if it's the buyer's fault, because the end result is another lost customer each time.   Now, if they say that with this next game, there's gonna be people NOT buying it, because they said so but didn't do it with this one.

There's alot of bloody stupid crap in there, but that's how it goes.

They might still do decently enough with their next game, but chances are they wont do as well as they COULD have if they'd kept Terraria going as well like they said they would.  And the "not enough manpower" arguement doesnt work here.... if THATS the case..... they need to hire more before branching off into other projects.   If they DONT..... that's their fault.   And as I understand it, they didn't do this..... so the next game's updates are likely to be just as slow-as-freaking-dirt as Terraria's were, in terms of how long they take to come out.

Offline Dizzard

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Re: Where's the Valley?
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2012, 05:16:14 am »
Ok, gave it some time to hear things out.

Here's the rub:

After a game is 1.0, I am of the opinion you should evaluate a game based on how that is. What I mean is that the game can evolve after this point, but from the buying perspective, one should never assume a plethora of game changing content will occur.

If the game delievers initially what it says it will, well, then you have bought the game for what it was. If you thought the game would be more, then buyer beware and wait to see if desired changes come about. Unless the game says beta, you have no moral expectation that the game will evolve. It could, for sure, but that pesky 1.0 sign is there for a reason. If at any point you like the game enough to buy, great! If not, wait! But don't expect the game to change to your liking. The programmer has no obligation to do so. They really don't. They made their game like they said they would, they said they'd do some additions, but after some additions without additional pay most models indicate a paid expansion or stop updating.

AI war would not nearly have expanded and changed as much as it did without expansions. Why Terraria did not do expansions to help fund additional ideas I don't know. But if the game delivered what it explicitly promised it would then it's the buyer's problem that they bought a quote unquote finished game that wasn't to their taste. If the game promised, explictly, specific things the game would do but later did not then that is the programers fault. But vague extra updates are not a smart reason to buy a game that is not satsifying on its own. This studio did not develop a reputation like Arcen did for updates. To expect this reputation and updates seems to set one up to fail.

I enjoyed Terraria while it lasted but the reason I left with a sour taste in my mouth wasn't because I didn't feel I got my moneys worth.

A lot of it was because I felt Terraria had so much potential to grow and really it just hit the funny bone to see potential wasted like that. It doesn't have anything to do with how much I spent or thought I deserved something more.


Offline Misery

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Re: Where's the Valley?
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2012, 05:30:02 am »
I'd heard that apparantly Gaslamp Games, makers of the wonderful Dungeons of Dredmor, had actually offered to buy the rights to Terraria when they heard it was being dropped by the devs.

I dont know what exactly happened to that proposal, but.....

THAT..... would be nice.   If anyone could take over and do it well.... it's those guys.   Dredmor is a great game..... if you like Roguelikes, of course.   I like that genre, and I found Dredmor to be amazing; very deep and challenging, and with a great sense of humor.

Offline zebramatt

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Re: Where's the Valley?
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2012, 07:13:04 am »
Well, Terraria wasn't the Valley Without Wind, that much is true.

Offline Penumbra

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Re: Where's the Valley?
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2012, 08:29:09 am »
quote unquote finished game

I love that you typed that out.

Offline Zozma

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Re: Where's the Valley?
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2012, 08:47:42 am »
I'd heard that apparantly Gaslamp Games, makers of the wonderful Dungeons of Dredmor, had actually offered to buy the rights to Terraria when they heard it was being dropped by the devs.

I dont know what exactly happened to that proposal, but.....

THAT..... would be nice.   If anyone could take over and do it well.... it's those guys.   Dredmor is a great game..... if you like Roguelikes, of course.   I like that genre, and I found Dredmor to be amazing; very deep and challenging, and with a great sense of humor.

I like Dredmor, too. Dunno how well gaslamp would do with Terraria, but they do good with their own material.

Offline Misery

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Re: Where's the Valley?
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2012, 09:08:56 am »
Well, Terraria wasn't the Valley Without Wind, that much is true.

It sure wasnt.

I liked Terraria well enough...... but nowhere near as much as I like AVWW, which has fast become one of my favorite games, period, right up there with Minecraft and Dwarf Fortress, among others.

Terraria really was a good game though, I did get a decent number of hours out of it and enjoyed them well enough.

Offline Kregoth

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Re: Where's the Valley?
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2012, 02:12:08 pm »
Terraria was a great game and for $10 it paid for itself tend fold. The dropping of the game could have been handled better, but I doubt it would have changed the outcome.  Terraria had a total of 3 members working on it before it's dismal. Sadly those team members all quit after a while, this left the game that had a massive fan based to be maintained and moderated by a single person. The main artist Tyi left to create his own company and game, and Blu the community manager/PR guy left only a few months before that. I can't imagine how it must feel like to loose all your team members for one reason or the other. That's a ton of work and having to do all the art, programming, tech support, and more is a lot to ask. 

Do NOT call it Red shameful for dropping the game, that pretty damn harsh when your asking a single man to do more for a $10 game. What do you expect a single man to do on a game that was at that scale? I enjoyed Terraria and got more then what I payed for it in the end.

Anyway, AVWW isn't going to see the same thing, as long as people show there support the team will continue working and releasing new content, expansion or free DLC. I trust Arcen 100% that as long as we keep playing and supporting the game, they will continue to do more with it :)

Offline omegajasam

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Re: Where's the Valley?
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2012, 05:36:31 pm »
Terraria was a great game and for $10 it paid for itself tend fold. The dropping of the game could have been handled better, but I doubt it would have changed the outcome.  Terraria had a total of 3 members working on it before it's dismal. Sadly those team members all quit after a while, this left the game that had a massive fan based to be maintained and moderated by a single person. The main artist Tyi left to create his own company and game, and Blu the community manager/PR guy left only a few months before that. I can't imagine how it must feel like to loose all your team members for one reason or the other. That's a ton of work and having to do all the art, programming, tech support, and more is a lot to ask. 

Do NOT call it Red shameful for dropping the game, that pretty damn harsh when your asking a single man to do more for a $10 game. What do you expect a single man to do on a game that was at that scale? I enjoyed Terraria and got more then what I payed for it in the end.

Anyway, AVWW isn't going to see the same thing, as long as people show there support the team will continue working and releasing new content, expansion or free DLC. I trust Arcen 100% that as long as we keep playing and supporting the game, they will continue to do more with it :)

It's all in how red handled it. Even the most vocal abuse I have seen are from people who really enjoyed the game.

The guy did it just after realeasing the collectors edition, promising more for the game (combine those two and you get a lot of new annoyed people who had just got the game), and with a message that said 'I'm quitting so I have time for family. P.S. I'm developing a new game' and it all added up to one big 'WTF' and a feeling of grabbing the money and running.

The thing is people trusted Red 100% and had not even the slightest clue otherwise. (save perhaps blu's 'disaparence'). We were in the situation you descrive in your last sentance.

It's kinda sobering, VERY intresting as a case study into people buying based on 'future' support.

Kickstarter is the other one to watch right now. Seeing just how much 'faith' can be broken before people start trusting such models less.

As for AVWW, I'm impressed at the level of support, massivly. If it was annonced tommorow (as unlikly as it is )there was going to be no DLC/Expansions due to X Y and Z, I would be dispointed, but not cheated as the Devs have made it clear it is linked to success.

But honestly, with how much fun I have had so far any decent chunk of content once this inital batch is done will be practacly abducting my wallet.

Offline IIE16 Yoshi

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Re: Where's the Valley?
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2012, 06:37:31 pm »
Ok, gave it some time to hear things out.

Here's the rub:

After a game is 1.0, I am of the opinion you should evaluate a game based on how that is. What I mean is that the game can evolve after this point, but from the buying perspective, one should never assume a plethora of game changing content will occur.

If the game delievers initially what it says it will, well, then you have bought the game for what it was. If you thought the game would be more, then buyer beware and wait to see if desired changes come about. Unless the game says beta, you have no moral expectation that the game will evolve. It could, for sure, but that pesky 1.0 sign is there for a reason. If at any point you like the game enough to buy, great! If not, wait! But don't expect the game to change to your liking. The programmer has no obligation to do so. They really don't. They made their game like they said they would, they said they'd do some additions, but after some additions without additional pay most models indicate a paid expansion or stop updating.

AI war would not nearly have expanded and changed as much as it did without expansions. Why Terraria did not do expansions to help fund additional ideas I don't know. But if the game delivered what it explicitly promised it would then it's the buyer's problem that they bought a quote unquote finished game that wasn't to their taste. If the game promised, explictly, specific things the game would do but later did not then that is the programers fault. But vague extra updates are not a smart reason to buy a game that is not satsifying on its own. This studio did not develop a reputation like Arcen did for updates. To expect this reputation and updates seems to set one up to fail.

I enjoyed Terraria while it lasted but the reason I left with a sour taste in my mouth wasn't because I didn't feel I got my moneys worth.

A lot of it was because I felt Terraria had so much potential to grow and really it just hit the funny bone to see potential wasted like that. It doesn't have anything to do with how much I spent or thought I deserved something more.

I think I got my moneys worth. I mean, a tenner will get me into the cinema, or a decent round of KFC, use it on Terraria and... *checks* I've racked up 177 hours of playtime. Compared to watching a film once at the cinema.

Offline Misery

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Re: Where's the Valley?
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2012, 07:37:10 pm »
Terraria was a great game and for $10 it paid for itself tend fold. The dropping of the game could have been handled better, but I doubt it would have changed the outcome.  Terraria had a total of 3 members working on it before it's dismal. Sadly those team members all quit after a while, this left the game that had a massive fan based to be maintained and moderated by a single person. The main artist Tyi left to create his own company and game, and Blu the community manager/PR guy left only a few months before that. I can't imagine how it must feel like to loose all your team members for one reason or the other. That's a ton of work and having to do all the art, programming, tech support, and more is a lot to ask. 

Do NOT call it Red shameful for dropping the game, that pretty damn harsh when your asking a single man to do more for a $10 game. What do you expect a single man to do on a game that was at that scale? I enjoyed Terraria and got more then what I payed for it in the end.

Anyway, AVWW isn't going to see the same thing, as long as people show there support the team will continue working and releasing new content, expansion or free DLC. I trust Arcen 100% that as long as we keep playing and supporting the game, they will continue to do more with it :)

It's all in how red handled it. Even the most vocal abuse I have seen are from people who really enjoyed the game.

The guy did it just after realeasing the collectors edition, promising more for the game (combine those two and you get a lot of new annoyed people who had just got the game), and with a message that said 'I'm quitting so I have time for family. P.S. I'm developing a new game' and it all added up to one big 'WTF' and a feeling of grabbing the money and running.

The thing is people trusted Red 100% and had not even the slightest clue otherwise. (save perhaps blu's 'disaparence'). We were in the situation you descrive in your last sentance.

It's kinda sobering, VERY intresting as a case study into people buying based on 'future' support.

Kickstarter is the other one to watch right now. Seeing just how much 'faith' can be broken before people start trusting such models less.

As for AVWW, I'm impressed at the level of support, massivly. If it was annonced tommorow (as unlikly as it is )there was going to be no DLC/Expansions due to X Y and Z, I would be dispointed, but not cheated as the Devs have made it clear it is linked to success.

But honestly, with how much fun I have had so far any decent chunk of content once this inital batch is done will be practacly abducting my wallet.


Exactly.

I think that whole "Quitting so I have time for family, dont have time to work on Terraria..... by the way I'm working on a new game" was the worst part of it.

Not to mention..... it's not like Terraria was unsuccessful!   It was a good game, and lots of people bought it.  As best I know, it did pretty darn well.   This also makes the whole team size of exactly THREE much more baffling.

But really, I think that line from him was what bothered me most of all.