Author Topic: Thoughts on latest version.  (Read 1455 times)

Offline Darloth

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Thoughts on latest version.
« on: March 08, 2012, 03:20:25 pm »
(I considered putting this in brainstorming, but in the end I thought it was best here.)

I first tried AVWW ages ago now, shortly after the switch to side on, when it still had fairly hefty strategic elements, EXP and vast continents.

It was sooooo boring. Bleh.

Thankfully, it's much better now! - the lack of respawning enemies makes it feel like you're actually getting somewhere (though it can be annoying to enter a building, clear it, and then have the surface room full of stuff again - what do people think of the parent region (the outside chunk they're situated in, for most buildings) not get dropped in terms of monsters? Or at least remember a percentage of how many were killed, or something?)

The character building up isn't bad, enchants look fun and interesting, and the right-arm slot already has dozens of useful choices, which I switch out as necessary.

It's also quite clear now that it's a platform shooty adventure game, NOT anything at all strategic, which stops me trying to play it like that, and it has a quite nice metroid vibe.

I do have a few concerns though.  First, many of the spells are blocked until quite a bit later. That's fine, but most of the ones you CAN get to are pretty similar... I can't unlock -any- shields until Tier 3 or something (I checked - plums, T3), which is quite a while when you're new.
Some taster spells from all categories would be wonderful. A non-elemental, strictly inferior shield that still gives you the option to shield perhaps (make sure to mention in the description that the elemental shields are much better, or people might not use them). Additionally, more stats in the crafting bench menu or inventory menu would be good, like number of shots, projectile speed, maximum range, that sort of thing.

On the subject of spells, they're a bit... mundane. Have you seen Triangle Wizard? If not, it's an excellent example of diverse spells - it has slow spells, fast spells, homing spells, spells that make walls of damage, normal walls, lines, circles, clouds, swarms of killer bees and bouncy things.

As a beginner, MOST of my starting spells in AVWW travel in a straight line at various speeds. I'm not even sure if any of them are significantly longer ranged than others. They do different damages and things, and Energy Pulse gets a pass as it's high cooldown, high burst damage, and pierces, so it's nicely different.

But fireball and ball lightning? And tidal pulse? All very similar.

I'd like to get quite early access to some more variety - some instant-hit spells that draw a line, perhaps quite limited in range.  Miasma Whip is sort-of like this, and if you made the projectile move faster and longer (I think about four times the range - about to the edge of the screen but no further) it would fill that role, but I'd still like to see it be instant-hit, because then it would inherantly be more accurate. Lightning-bolt springs to mind.
Some sort of spell that waves backwards and forwards in an S pattern like the clockwork probe shot! (tidal pulse would be excellent for this I feel - do we already get something like this?).
Some sort of spell affected by gravity would be excellent - I know Launch Rock does this from experience, but it takes a little work to unlock - probably about the right amount.  Something that travels slower and is more grenade like would be good as well.

Some sort of area-of-effect burst spell right from the beginning would be very good to have - typically Fireball does this, but it's more like Firebolt here. That's fine, it's nice and frequent, but something that goes blam would be great.  I notice that both Earth and Water both only have 1 spell with zero requirements, so perhaps a water-grenade sort of spell, and a low duration earth wall that blocks both yours and the enemies shots, has health, and otherwise dissolves quickly (just to give some sort of shield/block sort of effect - you could also jump on it but I feel it should be gravity affected and generally be far worse than platforms for this)

Some homing spells to unlock (if there aren't already) would be great, as well, especially since we know the engine can do it as the enemy has them.

Finally, some spray-shot spells, perhaps if Fireball or Ball Lightning upgraded to fire multiple balls with each tier? That has probably already been suggested at least once though, but generally if tiers did more than just make spells linearly better... or, perhaps, if there were some sort of extra upgrades you could add, so you could synth a super-long-range-tier-2 fireball, or a multiple-shots-tier-2 fireball, or an Area-of-effect-on-impact fireball... I realize that's very complicated, but I love tweaking around with systems like that and it would add tons of variety to each current and new spell, and only require one (big) chunk of implementation early on, hopefully.  Yes, people could make broken combinations with it, but balancing mana costs and cooldowns would probably stop many of those and I think if people really want to 'break' it (it's often fun!), they will anyway.

Progression is a little weird, and I think the tutorial could make it clear that the missions will probably be too hard (at least on Hero!) right from the start, so building up some good enchants and upgrade stones via exploring is a good idea.  It might be good to be led just a little more if you didn't skip the tutorial - perhaps one of the Illari should suggest you focus on building up a full set of enchants, by exploring buildings for stashes, or something like that?

Speaking of difficulty levels, I find Hero a bit over-challenging, with me only managing to defeat a couple of rooms full of mobs before having to return to be healed, and Adept a bit under-challenging, I'm usually on full health.  I think it's because the difficulty seems like it's double- or even triple-dipping. Enemies are tougher, do more damage, seem to move and shoot faster, drop less health, and also take less damage, which combines to make the difficulty levels even more exponential than they already are. Perhaps a level in between Adept and Hero would be good.

Generally it is much improved, but there's still occasionally a bit of an empty feeling to it, which judging from the list of things to add before version 1.0, is already on the agenda to fix :)

There's still a bit of a problem in that it sometimes feels like a slog to progress, killing dozens of enemies to get to one stash, and then there's not a huge amount there, and you rinse/repeat a fair bit, but that might just be that I haven't played it enough yet... I suspect it could do with being condensed a little though - bigger rewards in larger chunks, fewer but tougher enemies, that sort of thing.  In fact, maybe that should be a third set of options, to match the combat difficulty and platforming difficulty? (Game scale perhaps, running from Condensed / Quick all the way up to Epic?)

I hope this post is helpful in outlining my views on it as someone who is mostly new, certainly new to this version, and if I think of anything else or have more detail to add on one of these points, I will do so.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 04:32:45 pm by Darloth »

Offline Terraziel

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Re: Thoughts on latest version.
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2012, 03:40:33 pm »
But fireball and ball lightning? And tidal pulse? All very similar.

One doesn't mean to criticize opinion but. How is tidal pulse like fireball or ball lightning? It's rapid fire, piercing and it slides across surfaces.

Offline Oralordos

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Re: Thoughts on latest version.
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2012, 03:43:42 pm »
Wow long post, let me see if I can't respond a bit here.
I first tried AVWW ages ago now, shortly after the switch to side on, when it still had fairly hefty strategic elements and vast continents.

It was sooooo boring. Bleh.

Thankfully, it's much better now! - the lack of respawning enemies makes it feel like you're actually getting somewhere
I've found it getting better over time too!
(though it can be annoying to enter a building, clear it, and then have the surface room full of stuff again - what do people think of the parent region (the outside chunk they're situated in, for most buildings) not get dropped in terms of monsters? Or at least remember a percentage of how many were killed, or something?)
Perhaps, I don't think it's needed. As you are spending a long time in the building monsters move into the region, perhaps making it so they are more likely to spawn at the edges of the chunk after this?
The character building up isn't bad, enchants look fun and interesting, and the right-arm slot already has dozens of useful choices, which I switch out as necessary.
The enchant system is quite awesome. I just need to play on a single world long enough to actually get some good ones.
It's also quite clear now that it's a platform shooty adventure game, NOT anything at all strategic, which stops me trying to play it like that, and it has a quite nice metroid vibe.
I believe that that is the goal. Congrats Arcen!
I do have a few concerns though.  First, many of the spells are blocked until quite a bit later. That's fine, but most of the ones you CAN get to are pretty similar... I can't unlock -any- shields until Tier 3 or something (I checked - plums, T3), which is quite a while when you're new.
Some taster spells from all categories would be wonderful. A non-elemental, strictly inferior shield that still gives you the option to shield perhaps (make sure to mention in the description that the elemental shields are much better, or people might not use them).
Hmm, I don't really use shields so I hadn't noticed. Perhaps a decrease to tier 2 would be in order. I think that Arcen is trying to show that shields are not needed to play the game.
On the subject of spells, they're a bit... mundane. Have you seen Triangle Wizard? If not, it's an excellent example of diverse spells - it has slow spells, fast spells, homing spells, spells that make walls of damage, normal walls, lines, circles, clouds, swarms of killer bees and bouncy things.

As a beginner, MOST of my starting spells in AVWW travel in a straight line at various speeds. I'm not even sure if any of them are significantly longer ranged than others. They do different damages and things, and Energy Pulse gets a pass as it's high cooldown, high burst damage, and pierces, so it's nicely different.

But fireball and ball lightning? And tidal pulse? All very similar.
Arcen is in their final phase of development. Right now they are trying to add as much content as they can. Try putting your ideas on mantis.
I'd like to get quite early access to some more variety - some instant-hit spells that draw a line, perhaps quite limited in range.  Miasma Whip is sort-of like this, and if you made the projectile move faster and longer (I think about four times the range - about to the edge of the screen but no further) it would fill that role, but I'd still like to see it be instant-hit, because then it would inherantly be more accurate. Lightning-bolt springs to mind.
Some sort of spell affected by gravity would be excellent - I know Launch Rock does this from experience, but it takes a little work to unlock - probably about the right amount.  Something that travels slower and is more grenade like would be good as well.

Some sort of area-of-effect burst spell right from the beginning would be very good to have - typically Fireball does this, but it's more like Firebolt here. That's fine, it's nice and frequent, but something that goes blam would be great.  I notice that both Earth and Water both only have 1 spell with zero requirements, so perhaps a water-grenade sort of spell, and a low duration earth wall that blocks both yours and the enemies shots, has health, and otherwise dissolves quickly (just to give some sort of shield/block sort of effect - you could also jump on it but I feel it should be gravity affected and generally be far worse than platforms for this)

Some homing spells to unlock (if there aren't already) would be great, as well, especially since we know the engine can do it as the enemy has them.

Finally, some spray-shot spells, perhaps if Fireball or Ball Lightning upgraded to fire multiple balls with each tier? That has probably already been suggested at least once though.
Again, try putting these ideas on mantis. They are more likely to get in before 1.0 if they are.
Progression is a little weird, and I think the tutorial could make it clear that the missions will probably be too hard (at least on Hero!) right from the start, so building up some good enchants and upgrade stones via exploring is a good idea.  It might be good to be led just a little more if you didn't skip the tutorial - perhaps one of the Illari should suggest you focus on building up a full set of enchants, by exploring buildings for stashes, or something like that?
Missions should be possible right from the start. The planning menu has a nice things you should do list that includes finding enchant containers and upgrade stones. Perhaps a message in the tutorial pointing that out would be nice.
Speaking of difficulty levels, I find Hero a bit over-challenging, with me only managing to defeat a couple of rooms full of mobs before having to return to be healed, and Adept a bit under-challenging, I'm usually on full health.
I've noticed that about Adept myself. I havn't had much trouble with Hero before but then again I havn't played Hero since before the health fixes.
Generally it is much improved, but there's still occasionally a bit of an empty feeling to it, which judging from the list of things to add before version 1.0, is already on the agenda to fix :)
Looks like you have the right idea.
There's still a bit of a problem in that it sometimes feels like a slog to progress, killing dozens of enemies to get to one stash, and then there's not a huge amount there, and you rinse/repeat a fair bit, but that might just be that I haven't played it enough yet... I suspect it could do with being condensed a little though - bigger rewards in larger chunks, fewer but tougher enemies, that sort of thing.  In fact, maybe that should be a third set of options, to match the combat difficulty and platforming difficulty? (Game scale perhaps, running from Condensed / Quick all the way up to Epic?)
I'm not sure that this is technically feasable. This would adjust the generators and since difficulty can change at any time, the difficulty has to be able to change anywhere at any time. This would mean that something that adjusted the generators wouldn't work.
I hope this post is helpful in outlining my views on it as someone who is mostly new, certainly new to this version, and if I think of anything else or have more detail to add on one of these points, I will do so.
I'm more of a person that's been playing recently. It certainly makes it hard to see some problems when you've been playing recently and keep watching the change-logs. Lots of obvious stuff can be found with newbies.  ;)

Offline zebramatt

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Re: Thoughts on latest version.
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2012, 03:48:36 pm »
Good day, Darloth!

As you say, most of what you're experiencing there is the result of content-to-be-added and little more. Over the next fortnight most of your concerns should abate as the content is fleshed out. There are a lot of great, varied spell ideas in Arcen's suggestion and bug tracking software, Mantis - many of which I'm sure will make it in pretty soon - and the guys definitely have more planned besides. That said, you should chuck any specific suggestions you may have into Mantis and there's a fair-to-good chance at least one will make it in pretty soon!

I wanted to address one point you made directly, however. I actually disagree that the player should have a taste of all the categories of spells right away in any game, but especially in a game of this size. If you have to get to Tier 3 before shields are available, then it makes Tier 3 feel like a real gameplay gate, rather than just an arbitrary 'level up to get better' gate. And that is really the appeal of an adventure game for me. Tier 3 may seem like a long way off but really it's a tiny step in an infinite game!

Offline x4000

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Re: Thoughts on latest version.
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2012, 04:05:44 pm »
A few notes, to add to what others have said:

1. Monsters only respawn after a certain amount of time has passed.  If you clear out an area and then come back within something like 5-10 minutes, it's still got whatever monsters that were there from before, and no more.  If you are in a building for more than 5-10ish minutes, when when you come back, there are monsters again.  This was at player request, and actually makes a lot of sense, because otherwise you're just running around empty landscapes a lot.  For most Metroid/Zelda/etc games, they literally respawn stuff as soon as you leave the room in question, for this very reason of re-traversal.

2. The strategic elements haven't been removed, they've just substantially changed form.  A Metroidvania shooty game is linear.  You go where it tells you, solve the puzzles it hands you, and win if you are good enough at solving the puzzles, jumping around, and doing the shooty bits.  With AVWW, the focus is on developing your character and civilization: enchants, unlocks, guardian powers, rescued NPCs, deployed buoys and wind shelters, upgrade stones, chosen spells to learn, etc, etc.  All of that might be better described as "tactics" in some senses (choose missions you are suited for, etc), but in the grander scheme you have choices in how to buff yourself up to be on par with the overlord and take them out.  Instead of buffing an army in AI War to take out a planet full of enemies, you buff yourself here to take out one dude.  That's different from other similar platforming games because this game gives you latitude on how to go about the buffing, rather than forcing you down a particular path.  You're only getting a small taste of that so far, of course, because we need to do more with spells, etc.

3. Having world scale vary by player options definitely isn't in the cards.  It's already pretty condensed, unless you're doing something like intentionally exploring every last everything for some unknown reason.  Or trying to kill literally every mob you meet.  If you meet a mob, kill it if it's in your way or you need health; otherwise run on past, for the most part.  Of course, often they are in your way or you need health, so hence the fighting of mobs being pretty frequent; but that's different from killing them all everywhere you go.

4. In terms of the difference between Adept and Hero, I guess we need to add another difficulty level there based on several people commenting on this by now.  What shall we call it?
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Offline Toll

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Re: Thoughts on latest version.
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2012, 04:18:23 pm »
How about simply "Skilled"?

Offline x4000

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Re: Thoughts on latest version.
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2012, 04:18:52 pm »
Good idea.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Thoughts on latest version.
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2012, 04:34:22 pm »
All right then, for next version this is now in:

* Added a new "Skilled" difficulty level between the Adept (default) and Hero (recommended for experienced gamers) difficulty:
** Monster damage percent: Adept 0.5; Skilled  0.75; Hero 1
** Monster cooldown multiplier: Adept 1.5; Skilled 1.25; Hero 1
** Monster telegraphing time multiplier: Adept 1.25; Skilled 1.13; Hero 1
** Monster health multiplier: Adept 1.5; Skilled 2.25; Hero 3
** Accuracy of monsters using things like circle of fire: Skilled takes the same as hero, which is better than adept.
** Monster speed multiplier: Adept: 0.8; Skilled 0.9; Hero 1
** Multiplier to healing: Adept 2; Skilled 1.5; Hero 1
** Damage from environmental things like being set on fire: Adept: 15; Skilled 18; Hero 20
** Note that any previously-chosen combat difficulty of Hero and up has now been bumped down by 1.  If you liked Hero difficiculty (or higher), you're going to want to go back and reset your difficulty to that or things will suddenly be too easy.  If, on the other hand, you were playing Hero because Adept was too easy, but Hero was too frustrating even so... well, you shouldn't have to do anything, as you should now be on Skilled automatically.
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Offline Darloth

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Re: Thoughts on latest version.
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2012, 04:52:33 pm »
Thanks for the very rapid replies!

I'm aware of the Mantis trackers, but I wanted discussion on whether other people think the beginning spells and spells as a whole should be more diverse in different ways.

As for Tidal Pulse specifically, it's the most different from Fireball, yes, but it's still quite similar. It's long ranged, it's clearly not a sniper-style spell like Energy Bolt, and it doesn't slide over surfaces all that differently from anything else that does that, namely ball lightning and the water bolt thing water espers shoot. If it moved in an S pattern or split into two smaller spells going in opposite whenever it hit a surface, that would differentiate it greatly, but i don't want to say "Here is my idea for it", I'm more trying to point out that it's a bit different, but not different -enough-.  I can certainly add a load of specific spell ideas to mantis if you're really lacking in them, but usually I find that there are enough ideas, but not enough time to implement them, and I was trying to give my opinion on what sorts of spell ideas I would like and think would help :)

I edited my previous post a bit before I noticed there had been some replies, so to summarize, I would love it if there were an extra layer of things you could add onto spells with crafting, so you could make a longer ranged fireball, or a faster-projectile fireball, or a wavy one or something, and I thought that could add personalized content without requiring as much per-spell effort as extra spells. Clearly, it would be more up-front effort, but I love customizability crafty bits like that.  I can certainly mantis that, if you think it's worthwhile, but I don't want to just dump every half-baked idea I have on it after a few hours playing it on version 0.4 or so, and a few hours on 0.9.

About the monsters spawning outside - yes, it could very well be that. I think I may have paused inside the building as well, and as I understand the time system that would count. It's probably fine then.

About world scale - okay, noted that it won't ever become an option. I'll play it a bit more and see if the percieved speed of progression increases any. I could just be starting off slow, and Skilled should help a lot.

Zebramatt - It's a tiny step in an infinite game if I keep playing it. If I get bored because my attention span is woefully too short, perhaps that is my problem, but it also means I don't get to experience all or even most of the content. I don't know if this -IS- a problem yet, because I haven't got to Tier 3 so I don't know how long it's going to take, but I have played for a few hours without getting to tier 2, and I am giving opinions from that perspective because I think they're valuable, and I won't be able to give a proper opinion about how it felt back then after I -do- get to tier 3. You are right in that there should be new things at each part, which is why I suggested some sort of taster of it, but perhaps you are also right in that this would reduce the uniqueness of T3, perhaps by too much. I'll play a bit more and see.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 04:59:42 pm by Darloth »

Offline x4000

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Re: Thoughts on latest version.
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2012, 05:01:38 pm »
In terms of spell variety at the start, to be perfectly blunt our biggest problem has been players getting overwhelmed with the complexity at the start.  I think it's not unreasonable to start them out with a small stable of spells that differ in usage pattern (more than you seem to think, these differ; but they aren't as different as ice cross or whatever).  In Half Life 2, to pick an example, you first spend a few minutes with no weapon, just walking around.  Then you get the crowbar and can use that for another 10+ minutes.  Then it's just the pistol for another half an hour or so if I recall.  Then you slowly get a couple of other guns.

If I gave you a slate of 40 options to choose from at the start, it would be absolutely overwhelming.  On the other hand, if we denied you access to a specific color's basic ranged spell from the start, then your ability to play as that color of mage in terms of how you buff your enchants, etc, gets really limited.

I edited my previous post a bit before I noticed there had been some replies, so to summarize, I would love it if there were an extra layer of things you could add onto spells with crafting, so you could make a longer ranged fireball, or a faster-projectile fireball, or a wavy one or something, and I thought that could add personalized content without requiring as much per-spell effort as extra spells. Clearly, it would be more up-front effort, but I love customizability crafty bits like that.  I can certainly mantis that, if you think it's worthwhile, but I don't want to just dump every half-baked idea I have on it after a few hours playing it on version 0.4 or so, and a few hours on 0.9.

That's definitely never going to happen in the way you describe -- but that's precisely what the enchants system is for, and more or less is already there.  The crafting itself is set, and is simple, and isn't going to change -- period.  But the enchants system is wicked deep and we're going to be adding even more to that.  A lot of the sort of personalization you want comes from the intersection of four groups of stats: character chosen (and their innate stats); upgrades applied to that character (via upgrade stones); enchants applied to that character (which you can swap out whenever); actual spells chosen to use.

I think you'll find that gives even more flexibility than your typical system like you are thinking of, but without the upfront complexity that a lot of the others suffer from.
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Offline Darloth

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Re: Thoughts on latest version.
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2012, 05:06:34 pm »
Perhaps so. I certainly hope so, as it seems like it could be very fun.

However, if you gave me a slate of 40 different options from the start, and even MORE unlocked later, I would love it.  I accept that this isn't typical :)

This is why I didn't want to just throw all these ideas into Mantis though, I don't know enough about the intended design of the spells and things to know what's a good idea yet, so thanks for explaining it.

Offline x4000

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Re: Thoughts on latest version.
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2012, 05:08:52 pm »
I think that, on our Expert starts, we will likely wind up having closer to 40 spells unlocked from the start.  Not currently, but I think that's more what will be the case later.
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