Author Topic: What I don't like in AVWW and probably never will. Specific explanations of why.  (Read 5831 times)

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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If blocks are separate from MP, how then do you balance them in this game? Considering you could just spam them otherwise.

King

And I'm not crazy about cool downs on them either.
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Offline eRe4s3r

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With damage leak x% ~, and block limit (x) as well as a (chance) for guard break (next hit on you does x% damage more) and stuns you for x ms. Breaking guard is also dependent on power of spell that hits you. And certain enemies break guard automatically (rhinos)

Why would I write how to possibly balance block if people are against even considering a proper block and tell me the 3-second-to-drain-your-mana-empty shield is an alternative to a guard/block function. Clearly we are at a rather premature stage of the discussion about a block function to consider details ;P

Needless to say, if block is considered, the details are open for debate. But block is open for debate as well, so no point detailing specifics.

By the way, a block function is fundamentally different from a sustained shield function. The shield has no dynamics, you activate it, it is active.. and it remains active for x amount of time. I find that rather mhh, boring.

If a block function was to act like a magical directional shield for one, I could hold it for fun, it'd look cool, i could prepare myself when jump down somewhere holding block while falling and in combat I could cast 3 or 4 spells, jump in a good position and block the counter fire then just jump back in the fray = adds fluidity.

So yeah, my suggestions usually do not come out of nowhere ;P I am just a bit lazy writing this down in a topic thats not... ehm, about blocks. ^^
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 10:32:30 AM by eRe4s3r »
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Offline x4000

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Blocks are not terribly interesting to me, to be honest.  That makes it far too easy for skilled players to just avoid way too much damage.  Now, granted, you can already do that by dodging.  But the entire point of some of the varied terrain layouts is to make it so that sometimes your ability to dodge is compromised by tight spaces.  Block couldn't be effectively diminished in that fashion, and so that leads to less tactics.

Both blocks and combos tend to trend toward fighting games, and I'll warn you that's a genre I don't like or particularly understand.
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Offline zebramatt

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I'd be in favour of making blocks even more twitch-based. Ditch the different kinds, add a specific key bind, allow them to drain a smaller but not insignificant amount of mana, make them only protect you if activated at precisely the moment the shot hits (or thereabouts), add a series of enchants for them to allow different levels of damage reduction for different elements, etc. - job done! (Post-v3.0 obviously.)

And I don't personally see a problem with someone who is able to parry absolutely everything having an 'easier' time of it that someone who isn't, if the mechanic itself requires precise timing to pull off.

But I'm speculating wildly about my own preferences now!

Offline x4000

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It's a possibility as far as gameplay modes go, I suppose; but the balance would have to be super precise, and like I said I worry about people being able to abuse it too much.  If it were super twitch based then even a skilled player would miss a lot of shots, which would make it more risk/reward.  But it just depends, and definitely is out of scope for this week.
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Offline darkchair

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Sorry if I sounded like I was complaining about the world, I was just leaving out the good stuff.

Your art is terrific. Your music is gorgeous. The setting is unique and fun. The game play is a ton of fun.

Was just reminding really of the fact that everything gets boring after a while, so if you add things as the game grows you will not only counter the boredom but add new experiences to the game that make it worth alone more than the asking price of the game. I'm sure you guys will add more awesome stuff, so I'm sure I won't get bored of the game any time soon.


I mean we have all of these other high budget games with their 10 hour campaigns and cliche art/stories, and with this (as you said) you are asking $15-20 for a perpetual game with innovation in combat, world-building, and game flow. Add to that all the free updates coming with the game and this game completely blows most high budget games out of the water in terms of value.



I'm not really a fan of blocking myself, I like having to dodge everything. Maybe adjust how shields work or add new variant shields.

Offline x4000

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Cheers, darkchair -- I appreciate the kind words, but I wasn't particularly aiming my comments at you.  I felt a little blindsided by a few specific posts in here after the OP, but yours wasn't one of them.
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Offline zoutzakje

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my apologies for being off topic, but I read the links to the articles you gave chris, and I found them to be very interesting and insightful. I never realized that this was the main reason most developers never look at their forums themselves. I would feel terrible if people started insulting me for the work that I do. I work at an animal shelter, but it implies to everything. We don't get in contact with so many people as developers, but an occasional customer's rudeness or stupidity can really get on our nerves. Especially when we see how some people treat their pets, it sometimes makes us wonder if what we're doing is worth it.
My point is, even though I never use cursing and usually try to be as nice and calm as possible, I've sometimes caught myself being a jerk to other people online whenever I'm in a bad mood, just like one of the articles described. So If I ever offended you or Keith or anyone in this community, my apologies. It was not my intention and I will pay more attention to what I post from now on.
Since I'm not really productive when it comes to suggestions, bug reports and feedback, but being more of a newbie helper (whenever I have the knowledge to do so), I'll stop bugging you guys and let you guys release 1.0 peacefully :P

Offline keith.lamothe

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In general:

Y'all are human, and you care about the game, so you talk about the game, including (and, for some personality-types, especially) the parts you don't like.  And since you're human sometimes it has some rough edges.  This is the primary place to talk about the game, and we certainly don't want people feeling like they have to create some other forum to have a critical/open discussion about our games (talk about disastrous to our community).

But we're human too, and there are limits to how much stress one man can take before he starts to fray.

So let's all just think a moment about how we would want us to behave if we were the other person (allowing for different tastes), and then go blow something up ;)
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Offline Bluddy

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Seriously guys, don't let this thread get to you. You've got a great, great game here.

At this point, I think it would be really nice if other users who have suggestions for big post-1.0 changes posted them on Mantis, where they can be considered for their true merits, instead of right here on the forum, where they can just snowball into a huge, out-of-control laundry list.

Offline kalil

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I wanted to chime in a little.
I just patched from version.. .47, I think it was, up to the current version.  Been a little while since I've played.  I've got to say that the game is immensely improved and polished.  Awesome work!

However, my biggest complaint then and now is the one I've seen in several of the posts on this thread: attacks don't give a lot of feedback.  There was an episode of Extra Credits that describes it perfectly (about 4:45 in the linked video): Even a single attack needs a build-up, climax, and release, or it just doesn't feel right.  When I play AVWW, I, too, find attacks feel unsatisfying, and I'm pretty sure this is why.  When you left-click, the attack just appears (or doesn't, if you're out of mana or on cooldown).  No motion from your character, no charge time, no recoil, nothing to indicate 'you just attacked' other than your character flashing a bit (which is a notable improvement from when I first played).

That all said - I'm enjoying the game, and I look forward to seeing the finished product.  Thanks!

Offline Wanderer

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However, my biggest complaint then and now is the one I've seen in several of the posts on this thread: attacks don't give a lot of feedback.  There was an episode of Extra Credits that describes it perfectly (about 4:45 in the linked video): Even a single attack needs a build-up, climax, and release, or it just doesn't feel right.  When I play AVWW, I, too, find attacks feel unsatisfying, and I'm pretty sure this is why.  When you left-click, the attack just appears (or doesn't, if you're out of mana or on cooldown).  No motion from your character, no charge time, no recoil, nothing to indicate 'you just attacked' other than your character flashing a bit (which is a notable improvement from when I first played).

Considering my primary attack is on a .2 second cooldown, I'm not entirely sure what kind of climax I could get out of that... at least not one that didn't look like I was hooked up to the wall current.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Moo

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From my point of view, other than the one spelling mistake I found in the achievements (on mantis), the game feels far more polished than many big-name releases. Even before release I've got far more entertainment and enjoyment out of AVWW than many big games at thrice the price.

Offline kof91

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I only read thru the first post, I agree with some of the 1st point. Most spells are aim sensitive. I am hoping to see more splash damage spell that does area damage like the "S" in contra with is not so aim sensitive. Quite frustrating sometimes having to aim and all the spell feels the same just aim and shoot the enemy. I think probably would love to see more variation of spells and more variation on spell mechanics. For now it just feels so much precision  is required.

Again I haven't played far enough to discover more spells, just lost my character and inventory during one of the beta updates, so kinda of like starting from scratch again on a level 2 civ with zero character inventory.

The perfect secret mission is kinda insane, specially the background blends nicely with the bats.. just enter the mission area and gets booted out immediately.

Other than that I guess I am enjoying it, the platforming is just nice for my taste. Control feels accurate.

Offline Wanderer

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I only read thru the first post, I agree with some of the 1st point. Most spells are aim sensitive. I am hoping to see more splash damage spell that does area damage like the "S" in contra with is not so aim sensitive. Quite frustrating sometimes having to aim and all the spell feels the same just aim and shoot the enemy. I think probably would love to see more variation of spells and more variation on spell mechanics. For now it just feels so much precision  is required.
Try using 'tab assist' aiming.  It helps a LOT in frenzied fights to keep your target on track.  For AoE there's a few spells but they're close range spells, things like Circle of Fire (believe that's the name) that just does a 360 degree attack, or leafy whip that hits anything in front of you.

Quote
Again I haven't played far enough to discover more spells, just lost my character and inventory during one of the beta updates, so kinda of like starting from scratch again on a level 2 civ with zero character inventory.
That's... not supposed to happen.  If you can post your world (and backup world, I would hope) on Mantis (Arcen's online bug-tracker) they can probably assist you with the problem.  I don't know what beta you went from and to, so that may affect what could carry between upgrades.

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The perfect secret mission is kinda insane, specially the background blends nicely with the bats.. just enter the mission area and gets booted out immediately.
Perfect Missions are meant to be a little 'out there'.  It's like lava escape.  They were built basically on request (I believe) as very tough missions. 
Some things that will help:
- Don't move immediately upon entering an area, you're invincible until you do something (besides drop a light).  It gives you time to let the automated mobs move off the door.
- Use Tab-Assist to help you find the bats.
- Use a high-speed spell in perfect missions.  Everything has heavily reduced HP in those missions and thus should only need a shot or two.  If you get caught 'reloading', you're in for it.
... and then we'll have cake.