what about making the comabt more 'magical' before throwing in many more spells?

[jonasan]

there is a discussion thread going on right now about new spell ideas which is producing some really nice suggestions. but i feel like we have missed something which could really change the dynamics of combat and make this game much more unique. I can remember many time back in the beta valley was compared to FPS, then enemy spell speed was reduced to give the game a more shmup/metroid feel - and it feels really good now. However, there is still the basic requirement that when fighting any given monster the first step is to simply move your mouse pointer to the bad guy - i like this, it builds twitch style aiming skills from FPS into our combat system, but once my mouse is over the bad guy its just a matter of maintaining that, letting off more spells and dodging best you can. The game has a wide range of potential customization in terms of character builds, spell choice and play styles which I love and it works well in terms of offering diversity to the play experience ... but I have been trying to think of a way to make the combat more engaging and unique and i think that the way to go is to really follow through the idea that valley is about magic not weapons...

Right now my spells feel more like different types of bullets than different types of magic. Think about any film or story with a fantasy setting involving magic and then think about how magicians engage in combat - one uses one type of spell and the other counters that spell with another of an opposing type. Right now (apart from the relatively rare "sentient" projectiles) all of my spells travel directly though those of the enemy find there target, and like wise the spells of the enemy continue on to hit me... imagine a valley where all spells could be countered, where the enemy has a way of defending itself from my long range attacks through the use of its own spells. Right now it feels like different bullets passing each other.... not magic users trading spells.

there was a thread in brainstorming about a very interesting combo system idea - where one spell could be released and then another fired to hit it while traveling to its target to adjust or change its properties - i.e. water spells being hit with lightning to increase the power of that spell (this has great potential for multi player as well). What if we took this idea and broadened it into a world where all spell "projectiles" can collide. In order to counter the fire spells being thrown at me i would need fire my own spells into its path, and i would be best to use a water based spell if i want to bring that fireball down quickly. Maybe if i fired my lightning bolt up into the water spell my enemy is using i would not counter his spell but instead enhance its power.

With this change i have not only to think about keeping my mouse over my enemy but also have to move the mouse more and re-aim during combat to shoot down spells that would otherwise hit me. I think combat would become a lot more frenetic and engaging, and I would be very much encouraged to use different types of spells because of this need to counter with something effective - i could keep firing my energy orb at the fireball but its going to take longer to bring it down and eventually one of my opponents shots is going to get through. I will also have to be much more creative in terms of my spell selection and combat tactics in order to score hits on the enemy if they are able to actively counter my spells with theirs. I think this kind of change to the combat mechanics would also inspire many more creative spell ideas and help us to make the spell elements (and their interrelationships) seem like a more coherent part of the game....

Any thoughts from the general populous? Cheers

[Misery]

Doing something like this though, you run the risk of getting way too confusing, not to mention making even basic enemies take way too long to defeat;  seriously, if EVERY freaking robot I encountered took this crazy spell exchange to defeat, it'd get a little tiresome.

Not to mention, this would only REALLY work if you made basically every spell into a homing projectile..... otherwise, most players are going to just take the simpler, more efficient route of jumping over it.

Even further, this would be limited to certain types of control schemes;  obviously I dont speak for all, but I know there are probably other players doing this, as I have to use a controller to play this.   This isnt a choice, mind you.... I *have* to use the controller.  Physical problem;  I'll get monstrous waves of pain if I try to use the bloody mouse too much.   This being the case.... and the analog sticks not really being all that good for aiming in a game like this (particularly when the controller itself is awful), I pretty much just use the game's lock-on system.   Wouldnt be able to do that, with a complicated setup such as that.

Beyond that though.... putting too much unnecessary complexity in a game like this usually ends badly.  Stuff like Metroid or Castlevania worked BECAUSE of that simplicity.   Metroid, Samus could get all sorts of weapons.... but regardless of the different gun types she got, you always still used that base mechanic of point and fire, and dodge what comes at you.   That simplicity WORKS.  Complicating it further probably wouldnt.

And this game.... really, it's pretty darn complex to begin with.   There's ALOT going on in it, and alot for players to learn.

Particularly when you get something like a Boss Gang mission with a giant mech, two shadowbats, 5 of those awful red fairies, and lightning and water espers floating everywhere..... that kind of simplicity is REQUIRED here.   There's no room to deal with super complicated mechanics during something like that, and there are quite alot of parts of the game that are like that.

I think as more spells are added to the game and balance is tweaked, the "magic" part of the game might start to feel less like JUST shooting, as you find new spells to use that work totally different, and perhaps old spells already in get more usage.  More summons, different TYPES of ranged attacks, more defensive spells.... I do believe they intend on really diversifying alot, and making it all more interesting.   I believe that's part of what the thread for spell ideas is FOR.



Anyway, the ideas behind what you say here are pretty good..... but it sounds better for making a whole new game out of it, rather than trying to change this one.

[jonasan]

thats a very reasonable and well put response misery. you have a good point about increased complexity not being a good thing... for me though the combat as it is feels a little tiresome due to a 'lack of complexity'. feels almost mechanical to me and lacking something after extended play. as you rightly say maybe diversity of spells and enemies is the way to fix this....

but, while i agree that the fundamental simplicity worked in metroid, for me the enjoyment of combat in that game was increased massively due to immaculately crafted levels which built in the potential for said skill and creativity. we have a procedurally generated world (which is great when starting new continents/games) but it dosen't add a awful lot to the combat side of things. The different ways the RNG constructs the world offer up chunks with variations on styles of terrain that you have seen and mastered before - the tactics are fundamentally learnable - the game dosen't demand player creativity through level design as the game goes on in the same way that metroid did. and i feel like more enemy types are going to be dealt with in the same way as the others ... but then maybe i'm underestimating chris and keith's potential to throw devious new challenges at me!

i appreciate there is a lot going on in this game (the blend of genres has created something truly unique) but for me - and i guess this is what inspired my post) this is where the game drags for me (i.e. thoughts provoked by the thread X started) - the way the nature of the terrain leads to repetitive nature of combat. even with diversity of enemies the central core of combat remains more or less the same and the chunks/levels/battlefields are always more or less the same. It just dosn't grab me and sustain my interest in the way that i hoped it would.

now... if the combat changed in some way similar to what I suggested then it would be engaging to the point of requiring real skill and creativity from me.  the combat would become another innovative aspect of this game to add to the many others which i think is really important. I  think it would give the game a real addictive hook in terms of combat, which, when added to the self directed exploration and resource gathering would result in something really very special. For me, this kind of change would massively reduce the impact of the lack of meticulously crafted and balanced level design (al la metroid).

maybe the whole idea is too "niche", too complex, and - in the way you suggest - would make enough people find the combat tiresome to make this a very bad ideafor valley...?

on your other points...

surely control schemes could be worked around for controllers if this was implemented - not having a gamepad myself i have never tested the setup - but what if for example the right analogue stick controlled the aim by moving a target reticle that always stayed two inches from your character (i.e. setting target direction) and the angle you pushed the stick changed the angle the target reticle relative to you. this would allow for very quick angle of fire changes, firing backwards while running ... at least i think it would...seen similar control schemes in other shooters before and i don't see why it wouldn't work in some way here?

and i don't see why the shots would all have to become homing because of this - think about the enemies that fire multiple shots at the same time, running under two, shooting through the gaps and then shooting down the third before it hits you..... but maybe all this is another game in my head and not valley - just as you suggest.

cheers, appreciate the response

[timesend]

maybe changing the whole system of how spells function is beyond the frame of sensibility, but perhaps the gameplay can be created by using spells which emulate those affects, for example a single spell a player which is a projectile but acts similiarly to a wall or a gravity well that deflects or draws in projectiles, if you used spells to give the added idea of reflecting spells rather than creating the whole game round the premises than it becomes an addition to the gameplay rather than requiring a dramatic change to the whole design.

Bosses and maybe a few mobs could use spells which themselves could be deflected, such as smaller version of meteorites, by limiting the number of these you would be able to create a novel new combat gameplay without the neccesity to make the game more complex in its simpler versions. Would also give more benefit to existing spells with knockback such as plasma bolt.

It could be that only minions in contient 2 or high tiers use these deflectable projectiles, imagine the meteors from defend the supply mission being spawned by bosses it would be fun to deflect them etc...

[eRe4s3r]

If magic becomes more complex, dynamic, heavy hitting and skill requiring, we wouldn't need 40 enemies in a boss room just to make it a challenge. So clearly just because it is currently the way it is doesn't make it the best or even optimal situation.

Point being

Currently the game has nearly no ability to increase the challenge apart from HP of enemy, amount of enemies, and amount of projectiles said enemy shoots at you, and their damage. In a sense AVWW could be called a SHMUP, with lot of weapons, but mostly same'ish ones.

There are simply no complex boss-fights, most bosses are "brain-dead zombies" who rush at you (either flying or walking) meaning all these boss fights can be cheesed by platforming your way above them or in case of flying, just running around hoping you don't drop into water.

More complex magic system would allow for bosses to do more interesting things. Would allow us to counter it in interesting ways, and for the boss to counter our counter etc.

That said, I think a dual-shot magic system (shoot 1 + shoot 2 = new effect) could be fun ;p But for me, before we do new spells we firstly ought to push for better existing spells, better effects, better feel.

[Misery]

surely control schemes could be worked around for controllers if this was implemented - not having a gamepad myself i have never tested the setup - but what if for example the right analogue stick controlled the aim by moving a target reticle that always stayed two inches from your character (i.e. setting target direction) and the angle you pushed the stick changed the angle the target reticle relative to you. this would allow for very quick angle of fire changes, firing backwards while running ... at least i think it would...seen similar control schemes in other shooters before and i don't see why it wouldn't work in some way here?

Actually that IS how it works, for a controller.

But either the way the game handles analogs is twitchy, or my controller just blows, as for the most part it just never works quite right.  I've found it less annoying to just use the targeting system.

If magic becomes more complex, dynamic, heavy hitting and skill requiring, we wouldn't need 40 enemies in a boss room just to make it a challenge. So clearly just because it is currently the way it is doesn't make it the best or even optimal situation.

Point being

Currently the game has nearly no ability to increase the challenge apart from HP of enemy, amount of enemies, and amount of projectiles said enemy shoots at you, and their damage. In a sense AVWW could be called a SHMUP, with lot of weapons, but mostly same'ish ones.

There are simply no complex boss-fights, most bosses are "brain-dead zombies" who rush at you (either flying or walking) meaning all these boss fights can be cheesed by platforming your way above them or in case of flying, just running around hoping you don't drop into water.

More complex magic system would allow for bosses to do more interesting things. Would allow us to counter it in interesting ways, and for the boss to counter our counter etc.

That said, I think a dual-shot magic system (shoot 1 + shoot 2 = new effect) could be fun ;p But for me, before we do new spells we firstly ought to push for better existing spells, better effects, better feel.

As for it being like a shmup...... the devs can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's intentional.   The idea being to do things like DODGE enemy attacks, rather than have it be always a battle of numbers or anything like that.   It is true that some bosses could use more work to make them more..... interesting, or to make it less possible to just cheese them (like the dragon, bull, or green amoeba.... they can be killed with Energy Slice, which also kills their projectiles the moment they summon them).   It would not take much though, to make those fights more..... interesting.    Simply changing up the actual firing patterns would make it much tougher to defeat each one, as is proven with many shmups.   Shmup bosses are generally dumber than stumps (provided they even HAVE any AI, which most actually dont have), but they're among the most difficult and complicated challenges in gaming, depending on the game of course.   Currently, many of them tend to use REALLY simple patterns.... dragon waddles around and occaisionally summons a horde of fireballs, amoebas float around and stop and fire spreadshots, and so on.

At the same time though..... it almost seems like doing that, giving them more complicated patterns, might be against the intended design.   It seems to me that part of the idea is that the challenge level is supposed to change based on 1. which boss or bosses happen to be in the room, 2, what the room design is, 3, what enemies are ALSO spawning in the room, and perhaps other factors.    Depending on the conditions, IE room and spawners and whatever, a normally easy fight can become very dangerous;  this is really random though, but I think it's what they're going for?  Possibly?

Right now though it seems like the focus is gonna be on getting players to diversify with spells a bit rather than just "shoot shoot shoot".    I think.

I've now lost track of where I was going with any of this.   Havent had my caffiene yet, bah.

[Bluddy]

My thoughts here are that the devs do need to come up with more interesting attack patterns and to make enemies (and especially bosses) more varied. Live/homing projectiles seem to be their main trick, and I think this is a bad way to go -- it almost completely negates your jumping/dodging abilities.

At the same time, I think it would be really great if we could get some spell interaction system going. I really like the idea of spells negating other spells or amplifying certain spells as well. This would really give an incentive to use different spell types and elements. A splashback spell would serve the double purpose of negating damage from incoming fire spells. Slow-moving spells would catch a lot of enemy projectiles and modify them as they went. So there isn't so much of a reason to target spells with the mouse -- you just have to have a good defense plan for different elements and projectile types. Your spells become not just offensive projectiles but also defensive ones. I think this level of complexity could be really good for the game -- the game needs complexity if it's going to keep players' interests for a long time.

[Misery]

My thoughts here are that the devs do need to come up with more interesting attack patterns and to make enemies (and especially bosses) more varied. Live/homing projectiles seem to be their main trick, and I think this is a bad way to go -- it almost completely negates your jumping/dodging abilities.

At the same time, I think it would be really great if we could get some spell interaction system going. I really like the idea of spells negating other spells or amplifying certain spells as well. This would really give an incentive to use different spell types and elements. A splashback spell would serve the double purpose of negating damage from incoming fire spells. Slow-moving spells would catch a lot of enemy projectiles and modify them as they went. So there isn't so much of a reason to target spells with the mouse -- you just have to have a good defense plan for different elements and projectile types. Your spells become not just offensive projectiles but also defensive ones. I think this level of complexity could be really good for the game -- the game needs complexity if it's going to keep players' interests for a long time.

I think the homing stuff works fine, actually.   They're all totally dodgeable, with the exception of "Overlord spawning 10 kersquillion animated flareballs in tiny room", and even that one just seems like a mistake of the actual room design.   But I havent found even one attack in the game that is not dodgeable.   Like the crashed speeders, I've gotten used to fighting those (up close, actually), so I dont generally take many hits from them at all. 

If they're gonna use alot of homing stuff though, I'd like to see more creative use of it.  Something like the Nightmare Octopi;  those arent JUST homing shots..... they burst into a ton of normal projectiles if you pop them, and having a ton of them pop all at once is a quick way to overwhelm you and cause major damage.   This means that you have to be careful how you attack, and using Energy Slice, for once, isnt always the brightest move against these guys.   The shots fired by the gazebos are similar.   There's actually all sorts of interesting patterns that could be created out of the base "homing" type projectile.


As for the whole interaction thing..... I honestly just cant see it working too well, if it were to permeate the entire spell system.

If an enemy is firing a certain type of shot at me, and I have some other shot type that can negate it, would I actually do so?  ......no, actually.   I'd just aim directly at the enemy and fire normally, because I tend to be very confident in my ability to react and dodge things (I play ALOT of shmups), and the ability to negate things by shooting at the actual projectiles (for non-homing types) would not even occur to me.   Just dodge the bloody things, is what I'd do, there wouldnt be reason enough to do anything else.    The only way it WOULD become necessary is if the foe fired a truly undodgeable attack, and then..... well, TVTropes has an interesting trope listing that would apply to such an idea, which is called "fake difficulty".  Not to mention, it damages player freedom.   Right now, players have some options on what to do..... they could dodge the things, use a shield to absorb the damage, shrink their character to reduce the hitbox, use a teleport, or do something like use the Sieze spell to create a barrier.   These options work BECAUSE of the way projectiles and such function in this game.  A restrictive system like heavy-spell-interaction, combined with the type of base gameplay that AVWW uses, would drop alot of that player freedom.   Versus different foes, it might be "ok, the ONLY way out is to use such and such spell.... no other choice".   That kind of thing doesnt seem like a good idea for a game like this one.


Really though, I think with time the combat in the game is gonna get more interesting just by default.   The devs have stated numerous times that they intend on doing this, make it so the player not only wants to use more spells, but sees actual practical use in them.   They simply havent had the chance to get going on this yet (as there were various other issues to deal with first), but I seem to recall that they're gonna be working on spells in the next week or so?   I'm sure they're gonna come up with something interesting. 

Heck, even just something like the bear traps was a good idea.  I've found those things to be invaluable against those accursed raptors, as well as things like rhinos or whatever; in many situations in my current game, these have made the difference between an easy kill, or taking big piles of damage.   They're already one step more towards "interesting", as they're a non-direct-attack type thing with actual, real practical use.   When the game has more of that..... spell OR item..... it'll be that much more interesting.

[zebramatt]

My thoughts here are that the devs do need to come up with more interesting attack patterns and to make enemies (and especially bosses) more varied. Live/homing projectiles seem to be their main trick, and I think this is a bad way to go -- it almost completely negates your jumping/dodging abilities.

This is an immensely good point, actually. Is Valley lacking some of the most basic boss attack patterns one would expect from this sort of game?

Where's the enemy which jumps into the air and comes crashing back down on you? Or the one which dives underwater/underground only to appear randomly somewhere else? Where's the one which grabs you and pulls you close for an explosive/electric hug? Ooo, and what about spurting globular things which roll and bounce at you? And things which fly off away from you only to come swooping back at you? And, of course, where's the one which charges up a beam which, when fired, fills up half a screen?

 

[Terraziel]

I was going to write a post explaining why I don't think many of the platformer boss types would work very well here (the basic point was that many boss attacks in platformers are dependent on limiting the terrain where you experience them), but it didn't seem productive.

I was going to suggest that they should do some more shmup-esque attack patterns. But the same problem applies there, they are all dependent on open space....

My gut feeling at this point is that they need to make the game LESS random. Separate both Boss rooms and Bosses into two categories, Shmup style and platformer style, and actually work within those confines, shmup style rooms would have lots of open space for you to fight flying bosses with complicated attack patterns in them (so basic projectiles used in an interesting way), where as platformer rooms would be more confined designed for close range combat with enemies with complicated individual attacks (massive beams, sweeping melee attacks etc), not that the attacks would be mutually exclusive.

How this could apply to normal enemies is uncertain....maybe platform style enemies in buildings, shmup style in caves and a mix in surface regions. Thats largely based on the fact that anything other than direct attacks are likely to fail miserably in buildings.

[Misery]

My thoughts here are that the devs do need to come up with more interesting attack patterns and to make enemies (and especially bosses) more varied. Live/homing projectiles seem to be their main trick, and I think this is a bad way to go -- it almost completely negates your jumping/dodging abilities.

This is an immensely good point, actually. Is Valley lacking some of the most basic boss attack patterns one would expect from this sort of game?

Where's the enemy which jumps into the air and comes crashing back down on you? Or the one which dives underwater/underground only to appear randomly somewhere else? Where's the one which grabs you and pulls you close for an explosive/electric hug? Ooo, and what about spurting globular things which roll and bounce at you? And things which fly off away from you only to come swooping back at you? And, of course, where's the one which charges up a beam which, when fired, fills up half a screen?

 

One thing that probably makes the bosses a little harder to design in this game:   They have to be able to fit into any of the many different boss rooms (of which, players can create their own!) while still being able to function properly.

At least, I'd assume that'd make it harder.


Still, there are some interesting ones in there already.    I met up with that..... what was it, like a giant evil frog sort of thing?   That's what it looked like anyway.  It fired those green splitter shots that the Gazebo uses, but it didn't use the same pattern at all;  instead of chasing me, the things sorta floated either up towards the cieling at various angles, or towards the floor; upon hitting either, they'd then split.   This made for..... a very interesting attack pattern, not easy at all to dodge.

[Misery]

I was going to write a post explaining why I don't think many of the platformer boss types would work very well here (the basic point was that many boss attacks in platformers are dependent on limiting the terrain where you experience them), but it didn't seem productive.

I was going to suggest that they should do some more shmup-esque attack patterns. But the same problem applies there, they are all dependent on open space....

My gut feeling at this point is that they need to make the game LESS random. Separate both Boss rooms and Bosses into two categories, Shmup style and platformer style, and actually work within those confines, shmup style rooms would have lots of open space for you to fight flying bosses with complicated attack patterns in them (so basic projectiles used in an interesting way), where as platformer rooms would be more confined designed for close range combat with enemies with complicated individual attacks (massive beams, sweeping melee attacks etc), not that the attacks would be mutually exclusive.

How this could apply to normal enemies is uncertain....maybe platform style enemies in buildings, shmup style in caves and a mix in surface regions. Thats largely based on the fact that anything other than direct attacks are likely to fail miserably in buildings.

Aye, I was thinking along the same lines.

Of course, there is one problem with that, which is difficulty.

I can handle a kersquillion bullets on the screen without overmuch trouble, because I play ALOT of shmups, both danmaku and traditional.  But that sure as heck wont apply to all players;  alot of players find those sorts of games ridiculously hard to get into, and here, the devs would run the risk of making bosses nigh-impossible for some players to defeat, by creating such patterns.

Not to mention the possibility of REALLY overdoing it, when said boss ends up in a Boss Gang mission.

Still though, I would love to see more complicated bullet patterns from them regardless.

[Bluddy]

I was going to write a post explaining why I don't think many of the platformer boss types would work very well here (the basic point was that many boss attacks in platformers are dependent on limiting the terrain where you experience them), but it didn't seem productive.

I was going to suggest that they should do some more shmup-esque attack patterns. But the same problem applies there, they are all dependent on open space....

My gut feeling at this point is that they need to make the game LESS random. Separate both Boss rooms and Bosses into two categories, Shmup style and platformer style, and actually work within those confines, shmup style rooms would have lots of open space for you to fight flying bosses with complicated attack patterns in them (so basic projectiles used in an interesting way), where as platformer rooms would be more confined designed for close range combat with enemies with complicated individual attacks (massive beams, sweeping melee attacks etc), not that the attacks would be mutually exclusive.

I agree. Bosses need to be designed with a set of rooms in mind. Those rooms can then be marked as being ok for that boss. The variation can come from extra properties a boss might have (like suddenly also being on fire).

[jonasan]

i dont agree that a change to the combat system like the one suggested in the OP would negate the need to dodge - quite the opposite infact... dodging spells would remain a fundamental skill, but this would be combined with movingin clever ways to open up clean angles for scoring damage against your opponent... i.e. to avoid his counter spells and hit the enemy.

for me this kind of system (or something else like it..) would be a huge benfit to this game in exactly the way that eRe4s3r stated...

If magic becomes more complex, dynamic, heavy hitting and skill requiring, we wouldn't need 40 enemies in a boss room just to make it a challenge. So clearly just because it is currently the way it is doesn't make it the best or even optimal situation.

Point being

Currently the game has nearly no ability to increase the challenge apart from HP of enemy, amount of enemies, and amount of projectiles said enemy shoots at you, and their damage. In a sense AVWW could be called a SHMUP, with lot of weapons, but mostly same'ish ones.

There are simply no complex boss-fights, most bosses are "brain-dead zombies" who rush at you (either flying or walking) meaning all these boss fights can be cheesed by platforming your way above them or in case of flying, just running around hoping you don't drop into water.

More complex magic system would allow for bosses to do more interesting things. Would allow us to counter it in interesting ways, and for the boss to counter our counter etc.

That said, I think a dual-shot magic system (shoot 1 + shoot 2 = new effect) could be fun ;p But for me, before we do new spells we firstly ought to push for better existing spells, better effects, better feel.

it would also encourage player cleverness throughout exploration and combat ... which was one of the aims during beta...

and would surely bring the game more inline with the fundamental immutable design goal:

1. AVWW will be an action-adventure game with combat that feels fun, tactile, and as tactical as possible.

right now it dosn't feel tactical, tactile or complex enough for me... the creativity and cleverness that makes combat in this kind of game interesting and enjoyable (i.e. metroid / castlevania) is not required in valley to a high enough degree right now and so, particularly over extended play,  the ongoing fun you should get from engaging in combat just isn't there.

[Misery]

The one thing about this though:

For each enemy to be such an "interesting encounter", when considered along with the whole dodge-centric combat, their bullet patterns, so to speak, would need to be VERY DRASTICALLY updated.   

The game creates challenge via multiple enemies currently by having all of their current (simple) patterns add up into lots and lots of stuff to dodge.

This has a big advantage:  It's very easy for the degree of difficulty to vary with this system, and when low numbers of enemies are around, the player has the option to simply bypass them, as each individual isnt THAT nasty.

When you have instead strong, single enemies with really complicated patterns, well..... you run into some problems. Many situations would REQUIRE you to defeat every single foe to go on, simply because each one is a source of great danger;  the player would have much less options for simply bypassing each foe.

This also means that any given fight will TAKE AWHILE.   I cant emphasize it enough, but this is NOT A GOOD IDEA for this sort of game.  Tactical, interesting combat is one thing;  but this game is the sort that NEEDS to be moving along at a decent pace for it to entirely work.

In reality though, whatever Arcen comes up with, probably gonna be pretty good.   As long as the combat does not lose emphasis on DODGING stuff (as opposed to being based in numbers, or trying to do a "rock paper scissors" sort of thing, or other screwball ideas), I will continue to enjoy the game.

the creativity and cleverness that makes combat in this kind of game interesting and enjoyable (i.e. metroid / castlevania) is not required in valley to a high enough degree right now and so, particularly over extended play,  the ongoing fun you should get from engaging in combat just isn't there.

I honestly dont get what you mean by this.    What's this aspect of those two games?

I'm familiar with both.... the 2D platforming versions, mind you, not the recent 3D screwy ones, dont care for those.... and I really cant say the combat is very...... well, tactical OR all that interesting.   Castlevania, at least, the later games, you at least have a great variety of weapons and such, but you rarely NEED them.... and in Metroid, it doesnt matter which weapon you have at the time.... just shoot everything and dont get hit (only the Metroids themselves were ever an exception, and even then, "exception" consisted of a single Ice Beam shot before firing missiles).  I dont think I've ever encountered a combat situation in either series that really required much thought;  shoot and dodge (or whip and dodge) seems to pretty much always be the formula.

If I'm missing something here (totally possible) do point it out to me.