Arcen Games

General Category => A Valley Without Wind 1 & 2 => : x4000 December 14, 2012, 12:22:18 AM

: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: x4000 December 14, 2012, 12:22:18 AM
Original: http://christophermpark.blogspot.com/2012/12/valley-2-enters-private-alpha-first.html

Up until now, I've been guarded about showing media relating to A Valley Without Wind 2, and with good reason, I think.  These things take time to do right, and we're now hitting the point where we're really proud to start sharing this with a wider audience.

First off, here's the new video -- it's more or less a Let's Play where I walk you around through a bit of the early game.  Apologies for the sound of the game kind of drowning out my explanations in a few parts there.


And screenshots (you can click them to enlarge them):










Heavy Cat Studios, who has been contracted to do the art for this game, has really been doing a superb job, eh?  Bear in mind that some of this isn't final yet, and there's still more to come.  All in all the art for this game involved over 3,500 individual pieces of art (including animation frames in that number), and that's an enormous order that they've been turning around in a really stellar amount of time.

Did Someone Say Private Alpha?
I did, indeed.  The first batch of players has the game now, and we'll be doing more batches over the next few days.  We only get to collect each person's first impression once, and having a strong start to the game (with it being easy to pick up) is important to us.  So we're doing alpha in multiple groups in order to make sure we make the best use of the first impressions available to us at this early stage.

What About Public Beta?
We're expecting to hit public beta early next week, probably Monday or Tuesday.  We still have a lot of art to add and monsters and characters to add before we hit 1.0 in January, but the game is imminently playable at the moment and quite a bit of fun.

As soon as we're certain we've got the initial experience down the way we want based on player feedback, and have a few more coats of polish here and there, we'll be all set for beta.

So What, In A Nutshell, Is Different From A Valley Without Wind 1?
Well, the art is obviously very much better -- that's an easy one.  But pretty much the entirety of the gameplay has been revamped, too.  The original game had drifted a lot toward the MMO genre in its design, and we've reigned that back in and are planted solidly back in Metroidvania territory where we had always intended to be.

Even within the genre of Metroidvania, we're doing some really interesting and unique things, though.  Combat is more visceral and tactile this time around.  Spells have mass and can block each other, and the way enemies are designed and placed has been re-thought from the ground up.  Combat has been slowed down to some extent, but also made far more intense.

The "mage classes" give defined loadouts that are still way more flexible than your average Metroidvania title.  And the feats and perks give interesting customization.  While our interpretation of equipment gives a mild taste of random loot drops, though that's not a major focus here; if you're expecting a Diablo or a Torchlight experience, you're going to be sorely disappointed with that aspect.  But it's really cool and unique for the Metroidvania genre.

With AVWW1 we first tried having a strategy game and a citybuilding game as part of it.  Then we cut the strategy and just focused on the citybuilding.  Then we revised the citybuilding bits several times.  It never really accomplished what we wanted, although each iteration was interesting in its own right.

Here there is a very defined strategy game that is extremely tightly coupled into the main Metroidvania gameplay -- you literally can't progress in either mode of play without playing them both, and you'll find yourself flipping back and forth between modes every few minutes, keeping either one from getting monotonous.  I'm extremely excited about how this is turning out on the strategic side.

The other thing is that with the first game there wasn't much of a story to speak of -- lots of backstory, sure, but not much going on with your specific characters.  Since there was permadeath, you had just a run of bunches of Generic Character #5s that you'd never get that attached to.  Here you play as one character the whole time, and there's a lot more dialogue and interactions with both your rebel allies and your evil foes.  The overlord isn't some abstract presence that is "oppressing people" in ways unseen -- he's actively out there in the world oppressing you at every turn.  No NPCs are going to have to tell you that guy has it coming. ;)

And lastly, the design has really been tightened.  Gone is the crafting, the permadeath, the missions that you go on (NPC dispatch missions are still here), the worlds of infinite size, and a host of other extraneous things that were getting in the way of the core experience.  That sounds like we've stripped a lot out, and that's true -- but what we've built instead is something more focused, and something that is actually quite a bit larger than the first game in its own way.  Rather than going for breadth of features, we went for depth, and that shows all throughout the design, I hope.

In a nutshell, I'd have to say that Valley 2 is the game we originally set out to make when we made AVWW1.  But we had to make AVWW1 first in order to gather enough research and do enough experimentation in order to make Valley 2 possible.

Oh, and I almost forgot: we have a google spreadsheet with the status of where we are on our roadmap to 1.0.

Until next time!
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: KingIsaacLinksr December 14, 2012, 12:42:09 AM
I am now very interested in playing this. I'm liking the strategic mode a lot more this time just from the gameplay footage you had here. It all looks very tightly integrated and I think that will work very well with this game :)

Can't wait!
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: LaughingThesaurus December 14, 2012, 01:06:27 AM
If I can, I'd like to take the alpha/beta version, whichever I get, and make a complete first impression type video for it so you can see how somebody reacts in real time to beginning to play it... although it might well be a better idea for me to actually play it a few hours then provide well-reasoned criticisms.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: chemical_art December 14, 2012, 01:36:47 AM
It isn't always graceful, but this game (especially for first impressions) is SO much better in multiplier.

Nothing like discovering new...features...in a group.

The good, the bad, the hilarious, all improved by group play.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: LaughingThesaurus December 14, 2012, 01:45:52 AM
The ellipses around features makes me think this game is as evil as AI War can be.
Not gonna lie I'm scared of the evil overlord.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: chemical_art December 14, 2012, 02:30:19 AM
I've played more in one night of alpha in AVWW 2 then I did in all my time of AVWW.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: DawnOfNights December 14, 2012, 02:48:10 AM
Cant wait to play test it! Downloading now :3
I was probably chosen because of my cute sad face puss in boots picture saying 'I can has alpha now?' I included Heavily descriptive  CV and thorough explanation of why I'm suited for the task of a tester!
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: LaughingThesaurus December 14, 2012, 03:34:28 AM
I've played more in one night of alpha in AVWW 2 then I did in all my time of AVWW.
So I shall eagerly await being terrified of the evil overlord, then.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: khadgar December 14, 2012, 04:14:59 AM
I can confirm that Chemical Art did indeed admit he was "enjoying himself" while playing Valley 2. I've got the screencaps to prove it, in case anyone doubted it.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Wanderer December 14, 2012, 05:43:11 AM
I keep green-screening the Youtube from Chris.  Anyone know offhand what codec I'm missing?
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Hearteater December 14, 2012, 08:43:45 AM
Looks good.  Kinda reminding me of Rebuild 1 & 2 (http://www.kongregate.com/games/sarahnorthway/rebuild-2), which is ok because I love those games :) .
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: x4000 December 14, 2012, 09:34:01 AM
I've updated the video to include annotations where I was difficult to hear, and I also updated the initial post to include a link to that google spreadsheet with the status of where we are on our roadmap to 1.0 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtdOj7epD2gRdGlKU2VwbUpOWGNmMmVNYXFGeTFFekE#gid=0).
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Aklyon December 14, 2012, 09:52:27 AM
Is it me, or is that moon missing more than before?
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: keith.lamothe December 14, 2012, 10:01:06 AM
Is it me, or is that moon missing more than before?
I had nothing to do with the accident.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Oralordos December 14, 2012, 10:03:37 AM
Is it me, or is that moon missing more than before?
I had nothing to do with the accident.
Notice how quickly he denies it. ;)
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: keith.lamothe December 14, 2012, 10:07:16 AM
Is it me, or is that moon missing more than before?
I had nothing to do with the accident.
Notice how quickly he denies it. ;)
/me deletes the evidence

Maybe something like this happened:

http://www.teamfortress.com/macupdate/comic/
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: madcow December 14, 2012, 10:21:56 AM
Is it me, or is that moon missing more than before?
I had nothing to do with the accident.
Notice how quickly he denies it. ;)
/me deletes the evidence

Maybe something like this happened:

http://www.teamfortress.com/macupdate/comic/

 :o

Wot!?!
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Cyprene December 14, 2012, 10:55:28 AM
I am pretty curious about this Overlord's Keep that is supposedly the centerpiece of the game.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Mánagarmr December 14, 2012, 11:33:56 AM
I'm pink again. (If you catch that reference, you spend WAY too much time on this forum)
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: chemical_art December 14, 2012, 12:31:50 PM
I can confirm that Chemical Art did indeed admit he was "enjoying himself" while playing Valley 2. I've got the screencaps to prove it, in case anyone doubted it.

Man I hope you took lots of screenshots. The joy and horror of discovery was only matched by our collective reactions.

[A taste of one converstaion toward the end upon "leveling up" our spell classes]
Me: NO TIME TO SLEEP, NEW SPELLS
<someone else> owl summoning!
[note: It was not literally summoning owls, but it was cool nonetheless]
Another: I don't like my current spell selection, whoa, they do look nice though...and they hit hard! Ok I suppose this can work.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Mick December 14, 2012, 01:00:45 PM
No owl summoning? Lame!
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: chemical_art December 14, 2012, 01:13:05 PM
No owl summoning? Lame!

Now I didn't say that!

Just not at level 2...with my current class selection...at this given moment...that I'm aware of.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: keith.lamothe December 14, 2012, 01:49:38 PM
The Owls are locked in eternal warfare with the Eagles for control of the Avian Elemental Plane, and are thus unavailable for summoning.  We apologize for any inconvenience.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Aklyon December 14, 2012, 02:49:51 PM
The Owls are locked in eternal warfare with the Eagles for control of the Avian Elemental Plane, and are thus unavailable for summoning.  We apologize for any inconvenience.
Was it that, or could they just not be bothered to help us?
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Gemzo December 14, 2012, 03:04:17 PM
I felt like sharing this. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=113326659
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Mánagarmr December 14, 2012, 03:29:31 PM
I felt like sharing this. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=113326659
Oh lol, I was trying to figure out what was so special about it. Then I saw it :D
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Lancefighter December 14, 2012, 03:43:04 PM
Silly question - I was maybe somewhat interested in streaming it.. Does arcen really have a stance on that?

(not really sure who would *watch* it, but thats a different question)
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: chemical_art December 14, 2012, 03:46:10 PM
Silly question - I was maybe somewhat interested in streaming it.. Does arcen really have a stance on that?

(not really sure who would *watch* it, but thats a different question)

I don't know, but from my perspective it seems like it would ruin the experience for some.

Some players want to enjoy the game, and streaming it would be like a bad temptation for now since they have no other way to get access to AVWW. I think it would be best to do a stream at beta time when everything is "in place" and those who want to play can.

On the other hand, freedoms, , yadda yadda, not my game to decide, et al.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: madcow December 14, 2012, 03:50:03 PM
I think Chris said earlier that he would rather it not be publicized too much due to a) ruining the experience of future testers and b) it still being alpha/beta so not wanting to leave a bad impression. Though he also said he wouldn't try to stop it or anything.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: tigersfan December 14, 2012, 03:53:09 PM
I've not talked to Chris about this specifically, but I'd say I prefer you wait till we hit beta. This way our alpha testers have a better chance of getting clean impressions of the game. Once we hit beta, feel free to stream it all you want. :)
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Gemzo December 14, 2012, 03:55:34 PM
Honestly, I'm curious how other testers have been playing. A private stream could be fun for those who have already gone through their first impressions and such. Although, at that point we might as well just do multiplayer instead.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: tigersfan December 14, 2012, 03:57:07 PM
I think some of them are in the irc channel. You could chat with them there, and see if they'd be up for a game.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Lancefighter December 14, 2012, 03:57:27 PM
No, thats a really good point chem - Its probably not a good idea for people who would be interested in it to see me playing..

And dont get me wrong - If there was any reservations they had about it, I can understand.

Also, theres already a multiplayer server up :D
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: madcow December 14, 2012, 04:08:37 PM
Oh and apparently RPS posted a link to the gameplay footage.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Gemzo December 14, 2012, 05:14:31 PM
Alright this is getting ridiculous. I just fought through the same old-dude henchman 3 times in the same tile. Not even a special tile or anything. After the third beating, he coughed up the "Restraining Order" achievement... Although it's not awarded for this ridiculous occasion specifically, it was very appropriate.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: keith.lamothe December 14, 2012, 05:21:26 PM
Alright this is getting ridiculous. I just fought through the same old-dude henchman 3 times in the same tile. Not even a special tile or anything. After the third beating, he coughed up the "Restraining Order" achievement... Although it's not awarded for this ridiculous occasion specifically, it was very appropriate.
The achievement may be repurposed to this end ;)
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Mánagarmr December 14, 2012, 06:52:44 PM
It's usually pretty bad form to stream or make videos of unreleased games, so I'd vote against it.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: LaughingThesaurus December 14, 2012, 07:08:58 PM
It's usually pretty bad form to stream or make videos of unreleased games, so I'd vote against it.
It'd be best to release any content like that once open beta begins. Because... while it wouldn't officially be released, so to speak, it would be available to the public.
Edit: And that'd be what I would do. Any video of first impressions would only be made public after the game's release, if the game didn't change significantly between alpha and beta, and with permission from the devs. Otherwise it'd be like, an unlisted video PM'd to the devs or something... or just sent directly to them.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Hyfrydle December 15, 2012, 08:47:52 AM
How are other alpha testers finding the controls? I'm having real difficulty as they are so different from the original game. It feels that it is more suited to a game pad and I don't currently have one.

Would be interested to see what others think.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Mánagarmr December 15, 2012, 08:52:36 AM
How are other alpha testers finding the controls? I'm having real difficulty as they are so different from the original game. It feels that it is more suited to a game pad and I don't currently have one.

Would be interested to see what others think.
Didn't Chris say something about that? That it was going to be much more of a traditional platformer, and as such, a pad would make more sense?
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: x4000 December 15, 2012, 08:53:23 AM
As a note, I play entirely on the keyboard myself, while Josh uses the Gamepad.  I think Keith also uses the keyboard.

Adapting to the new controls when you're super familiar with the first game is hard, but if you take that out I think they're pretty straightforward.  Aiming at up and down angles without moving can be tricky, but generally you have time to line that up in advance.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Hyfrydle December 15, 2012, 08:58:47 AM
How does the aiming up and down work? I'm finding I have to press the attack and direction keys at the same time which is super tricky?
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: MouldyK December 15, 2012, 09:01:26 AM
Any idea of when the 2nd set of Alphas, if there are any,will get sent out or have they already been sent?
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: x4000 December 15, 2012, 09:04:26 AM
Any idea of when the 2nd set of Alphas, if there are any,will get sent out or have they already been sent?

Funny you should ask, I just put that in the other thread but will put that here too:

By the by.

If you've been wondering about the second round of alpha testers, and figured you were not in that batch last night, I just wanted to note that we did not actually send out a second batch last night.  The reason was that we simply didn't have our next build ready for the next group, because we managed to waste a lot of time yesterday trying to get Unity 4 (and thus Linux support) working satisfactorily.  It worked great except for some intense slowness on loading images on some machines, so we had to go back to 3.3 for now, sigh.  Wasted 18 man-hours on that yesterday.

But anyway, the next batch of 20ish alpha testers should get their emails around noon today.  I believe there were 23 people in the first batch.

(sorry for the giant font at the top there, but I needed to catch people's attention if they were skimming, since this was important info in a big thread).
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: x4000 December 15, 2012, 09:05:05 AM
How does the aiming up and down work? I'm finding I have to press the attack and direction keys at the same time which is super tricky?

Yeah, you just hold up and press attack, or down and attack.  That's pretty bog-standard for this sort of game...
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Neko_Baron December 15, 2012, 09:12:06 AM
As a note, I play entirely on the keyboard myself, while Josh uses the Gamepad.  I think Keith also uses the keyboard.

Adapting to the new controls when you're super familiar with the first game is hard, but if you take that out I think they're pretty straightforward.  Aiming at up and down angles without moving can be tricky, but generally you have time to line that up in advance.

Using keyboard only myself but due to the nature of too many keys needed to shoot in all directions while standing still I'm finding myself using classes with homing shots and casually spamming them then using the primary for anything directly in front, I can see the point of using an extra button for diagonal aiming since its really functional for the GBA metriod games however AVWW2 has a lot more vertical movement plus they actually did both diagonal directions with a single button hold that could be toggled up or down diagonally using the up/down key.

I think at the moment combat tends to feel overly tough in places due to the basic AI for most enemies, I can easily see it being a lot more interesting and flexible if boss fight get their own arena level designs and more pattern attacks since that's what the original AVWW was lacking for me.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Hyfrydle December 15, 2012, 09:13:10 AM
I'm so used to using W,A,S and D as movement keys that I just get confused and this is worse in a battle situation. I will play around with key binds and see if I can come up with something to make it easier.

I suspect others may also find this difficult as W,A,S and D is the most popular layout for movement keys in games. I can't think of any games that use the cursor keys.

Apart from these control issues I'm enjoying the game but it's much harder that the first one or maybe I just need more practice :-)
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Hyfrydle December 15, 2012, 09:15:08 AM
I would really like the option to use the mouse to aim as in the original game.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: x4000 December 15, 2012, 09:15:36 AM
The enemy balance is definitely a little bit off at the moment, because I'm quite good at it and tended to overshoot things.

In terms of boss design, by and large the boss rooms will always just be a kind of open room ala megaman.  But the various behaviors and attack patterns that the bosses have will be continually added to; right now there are half a dozen or so, with more opening up at various world levels.  But there will be a lot more coming.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: tigersfan December 15, 2012, 09:16:26 AM
I'm so used to using W,A,S and D as movement keys that I just get confused and this is worse in a battle situation. I will play around with key binds and see if I can come up with something to make it easier.

I suspect others may also find this difficult as W,A,S and D is the most popular layout for movement keys in games. I can't think of any games that use the cursor keys.

Apart from these control issues I'm enjoying the game but it's much harder that the first one or maybe I just need more practice :-)

Maybe it's because I've been playing PC games for too long, but, for me, the cursor keys are very natural, as they used to be the norm. I know it's less used now, but, when I was a kind, using WASD to move would have been very very odd.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Nanashi December 15, 2012, 09:16:42 AM
I'm so used to using W,A,S and D as movement keys that I just get confused and this is worse in a battle situation. I will play around with key binds and see if I can come up with something to make it easier.

I suspect others may also find this difficult as W,A,S and D is the most popular layout for movement keys in games. I can't think of any games that use the cursor keys.

Apart from these control issues I'm enjoying the game but it's much harder that the first one or maybe I just need more practice :-)

Keyboard controlwise, WASD is mainly used for 3D games; for 2D platformers, arrow keys for movement and zxc et al. for actions is actually the standard.

edit: 2D fighters follow similar rules with keyboard controls. WASD in a fighter would just feel wrong.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: x4000 December 15, 2012, 09:17:05 AM
I would really like the option to use the mouse to aim as in the original game.

That is one thing that has an absolutely zero percent chance of happening, and I'll definitely never be persuaded on that.  I know that will be a turnoff to some folks, but I have very good reasons that I've explained in the past.  From last time:

-The controls are also streamlined.  That whole mouse+keyboard thing was really a bad idea, as some players pointed out to us.  That sort of freedom of aiming really kills the classic Metroidvania style of a game like this, and makes it so that keyboard-only players and gamepad-only players are at a huge disadvantage.  So we're moving down to two streamline control schemes that are equivalent with one another: keyboard-based and gamepad-based.  And yes, the tab-targeting is gone since that basically acts like a cheat at this point without free-aiming of the mouse.

Please note!  We're not just taking away control options for kicks, or because we think people were "doing it wrong."  But the fact remains that generally a game is built around its controls, especially as an action game.  We're trying to maintain as much flexibility in the controls as we can while not making it so that people are playing fundamentally different games that we can't make universally fun.  Placing wooden platforms was trivial with the mouse, and so is killing a bat.  But it's incredibly frustrating with any other sort of input.  When you get right down to it, what we're trying to make is a Metroidvania game, and I don't personally know of any of them that use a mouse-style of control.  Hence we're going a bit more standardized with that, and I have to say the controls feel really good.

 Loss of the mouse controls and shield spells
Both of these things have an enormous impact on balance.  You could argue that these things are a matter of taste and customization, and I'd have to agree -- that's why they are in the first game, and why they remain there.  But these were one of the biggest ongoing challenges to balance in the first game for me, and they are things that really put large segments of the player populace at a disadvantage if they don't use them.

Here again, it comes to getting back to the roots of what we were trying to do.  Yes, Terraria uses the mouse controls -- so do numerous other PC action-adventure games with a 2D sidescroller view.  So do a lot of MMOs and RPGs.

In the first game we were really enticed by the allure of all those things, and so we let our design drift and become unfocused.  In other words, the design tried to become all things to all people, and Environ became a world that you could come and do whatever you wanted in.  That's pretty fun!  But it's very difficult to make a truly compelling game that way.  What we needed to do with the sequel was really focus, and make the original game we set out to do.

In terms of Mario Bros. games, what if Mario had a rocket launcher he could aim in any direction?  What if he had a force field he could toggle on and off periodically at will?  That might be entertaining for a bit, but that would fundamentally make a different game, I think.  And I don't think a better game -- for Mario, all the enemies are designed around him not having abilities like that.  So to give him those abilities means the levels would be crazy easy and hollow.

On the flip side, the game Intrusion 2 uses mechanics like aim-anywhere firing, and it's a brilliant game.  All the enemies are designed around the powers that your avatar has, and so everything fits together just right.  But of course the character there doesn't have the movement abilities that Mario does -- if the character there had that kind of speed and jumping ability, then I suspect its mechanics would really start to break down -- in the same way Mario would if you gave the wrong weapons to him.

 What I'm saying is, games are additive in nature -- you can't just throw any old thing in there and expect it to be the same game.  If you add a single new piece to Chess, you've dramatically changed that game.  It doesn't matter what the piece even does.

In the case of AVWW1, we had the movement speed of Mario 3 or so, and the aim-anywhere nature of Intrusion 2.  We also had control schemes that did not support aim-anywhere, and that made it so that players were playing two different games.  And that meant that enemies really couldn't be balanced around either, since in some cases could aim super-precisely and in others they could not aim remotely that well.  What a mess.

Again, I still think that really worked out pretty well in the main, but it's definitely a more niche experience and a bit rougher around the edges because of that.  By focusing on specifically the kind of game we're actually trying to make, and not dragging in stuff from other unrelated genres if it doesn't really complement it well, we have something that's a lot tighter and more fun.  It's not about taking options away from players it's about creating one game at a time rather than a whole soup of games.

And of course then we're adding tons of options in the style of the core gameplay that we're going for, too.  (As noted throughout the document above).  So there is that. ;)
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: chemical_art December 15, 2012, 09:36:45 AM
As Chris very pointedly stated, its not a good idea to have mouse. AVWW proved the natural evolution of trying to balance something involving that with keyboard support as well.

Now, I do have an idea for enabling diagonal shots. So far the Q and E shots are not used in 2Da (at least in my testing.)

Perhaps the <tab or q> and <e or r> key be used for diagonal shooting while standing still. It's intuitive, but would require hand movement, but generally the times you need to stand still and not move around dodging stuff means the few moments to move your hand is not so important.

Just an idea.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: x4000 December 15, 2012, 09:39:40 AM
I'm not sure if I follow what you mean -- you can rebind to those keys if you prefer them, for sure...
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Hyfrydle December 15, 2012, 09:47:02 AM
I thought the mouse attack controls worked very well in the original game and the tab targeting also helped I just can't seem to get my head around the current control scheme so as it stands I guess it's not the game for me.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: chemical_art December 15, 2012, 09:48:30 AM
I'm not sure if I follow what you mean -- you can rebind to those keys if you prefer them, for sure...

Hot damn it's already done.

Once again Arcen preempting all my suggestions  ;D
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: x4000 December 15, 2012, 09:49:03 AM
I thought the mouse attack controls worked very well in the original game and the tab targeting also helped I just can't seem to get my head around the current control scheme so as it stands I guess it's not the game for me.

I'm sorry to hear that -- I really, really am -- but we definitely knew that would be the case with some folks.  The first game tried to be all things to all players, though, and really suffered for it.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: x4000 December 15, 2012, 09:49:14 AM
I'm not sure if I follow what you mean -- you can rebind to those keys if you prefer them, for sure...

Hot damn it's already done.

Once again Arcen preempting all my suggestions  ;D

:)
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: chemical_art December 15, 2012, 09:53:29 AM
I thought the mouse attack controls worked very well in the original game and the tab targeting also helped I just can't seem to get my head around the current control scheme so as it stands I guess it's not the game for me.

I'm sorry to hear that -- I really, really am -- but we definitely knew that would be the case with some folks.  The first game tried to be all things to all players, though, and really suffered for it.

Chris on some level I can understand the desire. The decesion took a lot of courage and I'm sure wasn't easy.

However, at least from me, it has allowed to grow in a new direction. As I said before, in the first alpha alone I played more then all of AVWW. Things feel tight, intricate, and progressive. You have done a wonderful job.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: x4000 December 15, 2012, 09:54:48 AM
Thanks a ton, chemical_art -- I know how skeptical you've been, so it means a lot that you've been enjoying yourself this time around. :)
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: madcow December 15, 2012, 12:09:24 PM
Is the second wave of alphas still on track for soonish today by the way?
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: x4000 December 15, 2012, 12:18:54 PM
Within the next hour.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: chemical_art December 15, 2012, 12:47:06 PM
Yeah a new build!
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: tigersfan December 15, 2012, 01:03:17 PM
I'm getting ready to work on the second round of invites.

If you sent me an request, watch your PM inbox. :)
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: LayZboy December 15, 2012, 01:12:35 PM
I'm so used to using W,A,S and D as movement keys that I just get confused and this is worse in a battle situation. I will play around with key binds and see if I can come up with something to make it easier.

I suspect others may also find this difficult as W,A,S and D is the most popular layout for movement keys in games. I can't think of any games that use the cursor keys.

Apart from these control issues I'm enjoying the game but it's much harder that the first one or maybe I just need more practice :-)

Maybe it's because I've been playing PC games for too long, but, for me, the cursor keys are very natural, as they used to be the norm. I know it's less used now, but, when I was a kind, using WASD to move would have been very very odd.

Dunno what PC games you've been playing but most games past 1995 use WASD now.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: tigersfan December 15, 2012, 01:19:53 PM
I'm so used to using W,A,S and D as movement keys that I just get confused and this is worse in a battle situation. I will play around with key binds and see if I can come up with something to make it easier.

I suspect others may also find this difficult as W,A,S and D is the most popular layout for movement keys in games. I can't think of any games that use the cursor keys.

Apart from these control issues I'm enjoying the game but it's much harder that the first one or maybe I just need more practice :-)

Maybe it's because I've been playing PC games for too long, but, for me, the cursor keys are very natural, as they used to be the norm. I know it's less used now, but, when I was a kind, using WASD to move would have been very very odd.

Dunno what PC games you've been playing but most games past 1995 use WASD now.

I know most do now, and I said as much. Valley 2 does as well, actually, just not for movement. :)
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: madcow December 15, 2012, 01:47:54 PM
Alas, I'll need to wait on the mac version to finish before I can test ;)

No worries though, I'll DL it tomorrow/monday depending on when its ready.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Mánagarmr December 15, 2012, 01:48:29 PM
Dunno what PC games you've been playing but most games past 1995 use WASD now.
Oh yes! I play Starcraft, Supreme Commander, Giana Sisters, Dwarf Fortress, Nitronic Rush, Masters of Orion 2, Super Meat Boy and AI War all with WASD. /sarcasm

No, the games that use WASD are primarily first person shooters, which is a rather small part of the gaming market. To be honest, I haven't seen a single platformer that uses WASD lately. Anyone know of any?
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Hyfrydle December 15, 2012, 01:49:43 PM
Cargo Commander uses WASD and mouse for shooting and it works really well.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: madcow December 15, 2012, 01:50:43 PM
I've seen both used fairly commonly.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Mánagarmr December 15, 2012, 01:55:15 PM
I've seen both used fairly commonly.
I must be playing the wrong games then. Because I honestly can't think of any straight up :D
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: MouldyK December 15, 2012, 02:06:00 PM
Dunno what PC games you've been playing but most games past 1995 use WASD now.
Oh yes! I play Starcraft, Supreme Commander, Giana Sisters, Dwarf Fortress, Nitronic Rush, Masters of Orion 2, Super Meat Boy and AI War all with WASD. /sarcasm

No, the games that use WASD are primarily first person shooters, which is a rather small part of the gaming market. To be honest, I haven't seen a single platformer that uses WASD lately. Anyone know of any?

Terraria.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: madcow December 15, 2012, 02:07:31 PM
I've seen both used fairly commonly.
I must be playing the wrong games then. Because I honestly can't think of any straight up :D

Off hand, I can think of both Trine and Awesomenauts have wasd as default control schemes. Braid uses both.

I actually think it might be a case that many computer platformers just support both as default. I don't really think about it myself, heh.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: LayZboy December 15, 2012, 02:09:33 PM
Supreme Commander.

If you're not using Strat-zoom in that game you're doing something wrong.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Lancefighter December 15, 2012, 02:50:03 PM
I dont even I ever edge-scrolled in supcom - scrolling in and out is so much easier. Similarly in aiwar, actually.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: chemical_art December 15, 2012, 02:53:30 PM
Who ho new update!
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Mánagarmr December 15, 2012, 03:00:21 PM
Supreme Commander.

If you're not using Strat-zoom in that game you're doing something wrong.
Which I am, so what's your point?
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Mánagarmr December 15, 2012, 03:01:01 PM
I actually think it might be a case that many computer platformers just support both as default. I don't really think about it myself, heh.
This might be it, tbh. To me, platformer means arrows. Always was.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: chemical_art December 15, 2012, 03:06:00 PM
Supreme Commander.

If you're not using Strat-zoom in that game you're doing something wrong.
Which I am, so what's your point?


Just a joke I would imagine.

I do love that strat zoom though. Something really gets me excited of see my formations of blue colliding with units of red, bursts of yellow balls causes them to disappear. And then to zoom in and see the actual combat seemlessly for the most part. Brilliant!
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Mánagarmr December 15, 2012, 03:17:38 PM
Just a joke I would imagine.

I do love that strat zoom though. Something really gets me excited of see my formations of blue colliding with units of red, bursts of yellow balls causes them to disappear. And then to zoom in and see the actual combat seemlessly for the most part. Brilliant!
This is totally agree with. Strat zoom is awesome and one of the best features SupCom/FA had. That, and the return of the real time physics system from TA. Accidently shooting down a strat bomber with an artillery shot is kinda priceless :D
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: MouldyK December 15, 2012, 03:20:14 PM
Okay, i'm confused by the Xbox Controls, even when I set them. xD This is weird for me.

Might just be m not used to it, but it's all I can use since using a laptop. I'm sure I will find something to fix it though.


EDIT: I think it might have to do with the controls being the same for the strategic view and the platforming. Like RT I use for a spell in platform, but it also means I have to use that for dispatching in the strategic view.


EDIT 2 (Electric Boogaloo): I think what I want to have is the controls not linked. Like how GTA and other games have On-Foot and In-Car controls seperate. Would it be possible to have Strategy and Platform control separate? :S
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: c4sc4 December 15, 2012, 03:56:18 PM
I'm not sure why the controls seems off for me, I love the Metroid games and played through Metroid Fusion on the GBA several times. I feel that my issues with the controls is that is is difficult for me to be able to aim quick enough and be able to aim and dodge all of the enemy shots. I think it may have something to do with in the Metroid games, at least as much as I can remember, there weren't very many enemies that shot projectiles, or at least not as many projectiles as in this game. Also in Metroid, enemies don't tend to 1-3 shot you as they are able to do in this game. Or perhaps the controls will just take more time to get used to.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: LayZboy December 15, 2012, 05:04:22 PM
- Bats have the strangest hitbox OR Light rocket doesn't hit half the time, couldn't tell which it was.
- Melee spells are, once again, useless because almost everything shoots you.
- The controls are Okay on the Keyboard, but take getting used to. Kept pushing E to enter for some reason.
- Servers don't refresh fast enough, kept trying to join MouldyK's server, only to find out he'd closed it ages ago but it was still being display'd.
- You die too easily on the lower difficulties, the default setting felt like "Master hero" (or whatever the 2nd highest was) from AVWW1,
- The Lunimous guy's Ammo spell only has like 2 uses before it's gone, I thought I had 20 ammo or something not 2.
- The World map looks nice and interesting, although it's not apparently clear on how to remove the deep.
- I think there should be a "Random" button on the warp zones, which teleport you to a random one out of the islands choices, but has a 2 turn cooldown before you can go back.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: LaughingThesaurus December 15, 2012, 05:09:44 PM
I think the enemy combat is pretty okay, since it demands you come up with unique tactics for every enemy. But I've never not died in 3 hits to a lieutenant. I mean I guess they function as blockades basically? But either way, they're ludicrously fast at shooting and stuff.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Aklyon December 15, 2012, 05:30:00 PM
I found a floating monkey.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Coppermantis December 15, 2012, 05:44:36 PM
I found a floating monkey.

That tends to happen if you attack those things at the wrong time.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Aklyon December 15, 2012, 05:50:17 PM
I didn't attack it, though. Its just continued climbing upwards after I killed something underneath of it.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Penumbra December 15, 2012, 08:17:43 PM
I didn't attack it, though. Its just continued climbing upwards after I killed something underneath of it.

Then it works exactly like those monsters from Metroid!
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: kesvalk December 15, 2012, 08:22:14 PM
just ask one question please:

the animations will have more frames right?

the art seems awesome, but the animations are absurdly bad.
i have a lot of faith in you guys, so i hope this is only because it's in alpha state, but i still have a lingering fear about the fluidity of the animations.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Misery December 15, 2012, 08:37:21 PM
I'm not sure why the controls seems off for me, I love the Metroid games and played through Metroid Fusion on the GBA several times. I feel that my issues with the controls is that is is difficult for me to be able to aim quick enough and be able to aim and dodge all of the enemy shots. I think it may have something to do with in the Metroid games, at least as much as I can remember, there weren't very many enemies that shot projectiles, or at least not as many projectiles as in this game. Also in Metroid, enemies don't tend to 1-3 shot you as they are able to do in this game. Or perhaps the controls will just take more time to get used to.


Aye, enemies in Metroid almost never fired at you, particularly in the very first game.

Not to mention that, to be fair, for the most part the Metroid series (not the Prime games, never played those)  is just absurdly easy as a whole.   Often in a Metroid game, within one hour you generally have so much health that NOTHING except the actual Metroids and MAYBE the bosses could kill you.   Heck, in the first game you're basically invincible once you have one energy tank and the Varia.

Glad to see that's NOT the case with this game, since that particular problem is something that nearly all Metroid-vania games seem to have.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: c4sc4 December 15, 2012, 09:52:41 PM
Aye, enemies in Metroid almost never fired at you, particularly in the very first game.

Not to mention that, to be fair, for the most part the Metroid series (not the Prime games, never played those)  is just absurdly easy as a whole.   Often in a Metroid game, within one hour you generally have so much health that NOTHING except the actual Metroids and MAYBE the bosses could kill you.   Heck, in the first game you're basically invincible once you have one energy tank and the Varia.

Glad to see that's NOT the case with this game, since that particular problem is something that nearly all Metroid-vania games seem to have.

Yeah but I feel like this game may have taken it too far in the other direction. Being killed in 3 hits is not exactly fun, if you make a mistake or two, it often leads to your death. Also, now that some of the spells got nerfed, it means that it takes multiple hits to kill an enemy than can one shot me.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Martyn van Buren December 15, 2012, 09:56:18 PM
I wrote to Josh about this, but I am also Mac-only.  Will there be another round of PMs when that version comes out, or how will we know?
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: LaughingThesaurus December 15, 2012, 10:15:05 PM
Aye, enemies in Metroid almost never fired at you, particularly in the very first game.

Not to mention that, to be fair, for the most part the Metroid series (not the Prime games, never played those)  is just absurdly easy as a whole.   Often in a Metroid game, within one hour you generally have so much health that NOTHING except the actual Metroids and MAYBE the bosses could kill you.   Heck, in the first game you're basically invincible once you have one energy tank and the Varia.

Glad to see that's NOT the case with this game, since that particular problem is something that nearly all Metroid-vania games seem to have.

Yeah but I feel like this game may have taken it too far in the other direction. Being killed in 3 hits is not exactly fun, if you make a mistake or two, it often leads to your death. Also, now that some of the spells got nerfed, it means that it takes multiple hits to kill an enemy than can one shot me.

Yeah... I'm more kind of a fan of, say, the challenge of Order of Ecclesia. Even if you're not on Hard Mode (Artificial +60 damage to all damage you take), the game is very dangerous. Why? Because you're a very powerful spellcaster. Sure, you're strong, but you die very quickly. So, what you do is you have to attack each enemy tactically, by using their respective weakness. I went for that in this game, but what I mainly ended up with was being very good against a couple of enemies, and completely terrible against every other one... because you can't switch spells on the fly or anything. I loved the challenge of Ecclesia. I loved the fact that you needed to be quick and careful and tactical, but I would not put the very-quick-death kind of gameplay on normal mode. The way the game feels, in some cases...

Featherweight: Normal mode
Adept: Hard mode
The Chosen One: Hard Max Lv 1 (as in, all enemies move faster, deal +60 damage, and you are locked in to 120 HP. Most of the time, harder enemies are placed earlier. You die in one hit later in the game. If you do a fresh run of this, you will almost always die in one hit.).

Ultimately... I think diving into the default difficulty should be a fairly winnable experience. That's even the case in AI War. When you know what's going on, difficulty 7 is a joke to at least a lot of the vets here. And, playing on the easiest difficulty should make the game a complete joke to anybody who ever plays it... which is also how things work in AI War. My opinion is that the difficulty settings are each about 2 notches too high. The fundamental way that the game works definitely doesn't need changing, but I hate the idea of making a couple of mistakes and dying immediately for it. The fact that it makes me restart entire caves and stuff just compounds frustration, without any meaningful penalty. Maybe it's okay to other people, but I like actually feeling a sense of progress. I went and got a couple perks. That +1 HP seemed to make enemies do more damage to me and I felt like I just died more quickly for all it helped. I really don't feel like the level of difficulty I'm getting is what I bargained for.
I'm taking a break from the game now (I have been for a lot of the day, but I kept going back to keep hunting down more things to provide input on. I might start another game on featherweight so I can at least get a bit further. If I keep dying there, then that will only further cement the idea that "Yeah, the difficulty needs serious tweaking". I get the sense that this isn't the focus though, so I'm not holding my breath quite yet.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: kaboro December 16, 2012, 01:14:45 AM
I've played more in one night of alpha in AVWW 2 then I did in all my time of AVWW.

If you didn't like AVWW why are you still here?
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Misery December 16, 2012, 01:45:07 AM
Aye, enemies in Metroid almost never fired at you, particularly in the very first game.

Not to mention that, to be fair, for the most part the Metroid series (not the Prime games, never played those)  is just absurdly easy as a whole.   Often in a Metroid game, within one hour you generally have so much health that NOTHING except the actual Metroids and MAYBE the bosses could kill you.   Heck, in the first game you're basically invincible once you have one energy tank and the Varia.

Glad to see that's NOT the case with this game, since that particular problem is something that nearly all Metroid-vania games seem to have.

Yeah but I feel like this game may have taken it too far in the other direction. Being killed in 3 hits is not exactly fun, if you make a mistake or two, it often leads to your death. Also, now that some of the spells got nerfed, it means that it takes multiple hits to kill an enemy than can one shot me.

Yeah... I'm more kind of a fan of, say, the challenge of Order of Ecclesia. Even if you're not on Hard Mode (Artificial +60 damage to all damage you take), the game is very dangerous. Why? Because you're a very powerful spellcaster. Sure, you're strong, but you die very quickly. So, what you do is you have to attack each enemy tactically, by using their respective weakness. I went for that in this game, but what I mainly ended up with was being very good against a couple of enemies, and completely terrible against every other one... because you can't switch spells on the fly or anything. I loved the challenge of Ecclesia. I loved the fact that you needed to be quick and careful and tactical, but I would not put the very-quick-death kind of gameplay on normal mode. The way the game feels, in some cases...

Featherweight: Normal mode
Adept: Hard mode
The Chosen One: Hard Max Lv 1 (as in, all enemies move faster, deal +60 damage, and you are locked in to 120 HP. Most of the time, harder enemies are placed earlier. You die in one hit later in the game. If you do a fresh run of this, you will almost always die in one hit.).

Ultimately... I think diving into the default difficulty should be a fairly winnable experience. That's even the case in AI War. When you know what's going on, difficulty 7 is a joke to at least a lot of the vets here. And, playing on the easiest difficulty should make the game a complete joke to anybody who ever plays it... which is also how things work in AI War. My opinion is that the difficulty settings are each about 2 notches too high. The fundamental way that the game works definitely doesn't need changing, but I hate the idea of making a couple of mistakes and dying immediately for it. The fact that it makes me restart entire caves and stuff just compounds frustration, without any meaningful penalty. Maybe it's okay to other people, but I like actually feeling a sense of progress. I went and got a couple perks. That +1 HP seemed to make enemies do more damage to me and I felt like I just died more quickly for all it helped. I really don't feel like the level of difficulty I'm getting is what I bargained for.
I'm taking a break from the game now (I have been for a lot of the day, but I kept going back to keep hunting down more things to provide input on. I might start another game on featherweight so I can at least get a bit further. If I keep dying there, then that will only further cement the idea that "Yeah, the difficulty needs serious tweaking". I get the sense that this isn't the focus though, so I'm not holding my breath quite yet.


Honestly, I think the game just takes a bit of practice.

I'm playing on "skilled" myself, and really, basically *every* death I have is just the result of an invisible enemy;  either a bat or a glitched out crawler monkey.  I'll probably up the difficulty for my next run, as it's a little easy otherwise.

The best hints I can give are 1. Take it SLOWLY.  This game seems to be the direct opposite of the first:  You cannot just rush by heaps of enemies and ignore them like you could in that one, and every single enemy or enemy group becomes an encounter that requires caution, and proper use of spells.  And 2, really learn the spells...  MOST of them are useful in some way.   I'm only aware of a couple that arent.... the Blinding Flash ammo spell is the main one I can think of, that one's pretty worthless.   Other than that.... I've found good uses for most spells so far.  It's also important to consider choosing a different class depending on what you're running into in a specific area.  Exiting, changing class, and reentering is often a better idea than trying to just keep going anyway.


As the perks go.... I've wondered about those myself.   They mostly seem to just not matter.... a 5% damage buff to one type of spell basically means squat to me, and this seems to be the case with almost all of the perks.... I'm almost wondering if I cant just ignore them.   Do the level-up towers even DO anything else?   Those things seem like ALOT of work to go through to get a mostly useless reward.  I've not noticed any other effects from those except just the perks.   The only perk I've seen that really has an effect is the +1 heart one, and that's pretty much it.   MAYBE the movement speed one.   But nothing that's worth the long trek through the caves, or the bosses of the towers.  Overall these just seem much, much too weak.   And so far, those doll items that give new ones seem to be pretty much the ONLY thing to get in many areas.


As for enemies one-shotting the player..... I honestly have not seen this.  Unless I step on an invisible crawler monkey, and those dont count.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: LaughingThesaurus December 16, 2012, 02:08:40 AM
The thing is, I understand that I'm supposed to just be careful. It's not like I'm saying that the game is impossible, here. I'm saying that it really, really needs toned down for the default difficulty because of how tiny the margin for error actually is. I mean it, if they could just add two difficulties on top of the highest, and make Adept about what Featherweight is, or reduce the damage on Adept and use normal damage on Skilled or something, then you'd be able to make it through on Adept, and be challenged on higher settings because you want to be. I don't think a ridiculously hard gaming experience should by any means be the default. Complex, sure. I love the utility of spells, and I've made use of each spell to a rather unique potential that I did not expect. What I don't like is how I can make 3 blunders and be completely dead... which makes me restart the area with no change at all... which makes me want to rush... which makes me die more quickly. The crawler monkeys are more ridiculous because of how they can get stuck in the ground and knock me down by 2.1 health from my 5.0 that I have by default. That's absolutely ridiculous. Blind falls in caves into bat-filled rooms happen, I've been blockaded by enemy projectiles, and my only saving grace was me being lucky that I had a spell that would destroy them. It's not like it's impossible to solve these problems, but getting only a chance to mess up means there's no room for me TO solve these problems.

I do, on the other hand, agree with you on the perks. Stuff like +5% damage or +1 HP are things that I question actually make a difference in the amount of hits it takes to kill, or hits you can survive.

Ultimately, I guess it depends on whether they want you to always be a glass cannon. I mean, the balance is ongoing and all that, and if it does get changed, I'll be happy and I'll play the heck out of this. I love the strategy, and I feel like the strategy actually is a lot more clear-cut than surviving the action segments of the game. I don't understand why I can have such an incredible amount of trouble with the action part, but not even come close to worrying about food or scrap on the other hand... especially when strategy is what I'm actually bad at. It's weird that, as someone very good at action games, I struggle the most with the action parts of this game, having more or less mastered every other Metroidvania that I've played.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: chemical_art December 16, 2012, 02:09:41 AM
I've played more in one night of alpha in AVWW 2 then I did in all my time of AVWW.

If you didn't like AVWW why are you still here?

It's a bit more nuanced then that.

I'm a bit fan of arcen due to AI War. Most of my time here is devoted to that. I want arcen to succeed because  they are such an awesome group for so many reasons. The fact I call them "group" and not "company" is a testament to how I enjoy them.

I've tried AVWW and wanted to enjoy it, but could not. The game felt too directionless for me. I still kept some degree of interest. One time I had a very great conversation with someone whom I frequently have great, spirited conversations in which we had tons of agreement with what AVWW did wrong. Then, less then a month later, AVWW 2 was announced, and it addressed at least 75% of what was wrong in our opinions on some level.

So of course now I'm stoked, and AVWW 2 for me delivers what I had hoped AVWW 1 would be. It has clear, immediate goals with clear, short, meaningful steps. The platforming is in short, intense bursts combined with clear, meaningful strategic goals. Becoming more powerful is very clear both in stats, gameplay, and in appearance. The big boss is a meaningful force that the character has a very real reason to hate. The player is not drifting from person to person, but feels some sort of connection to their character (and with a great explanation for how they respawn). 
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: chemical_art December 16, 2012, 02:17:38 AM
@LaughingThesaurus

Part of being in an alpha is that we cannot expect the game to work as intended. The fact the game can be played from start to finish makes it a glorious  alpha already.

Chris already has said the game is too tough, and it was part of the result of him being too used to the game. As someone who has designed scenarios I understand, when you make something you inherently know the counters in whatever form it can be.

So we, as alpha players, are literally in some ways "guina pigs" so I feel any complaints must be taken not with a grain of salt, but a whole shaker of it. It's just the nature of the situation. If you want polish you play the beta, if you want the privilage of first access you take the bitter with the sweet.

The second alpha build compared to the first is already easier in significant ways, and I won't give specifics except through PM's because I want maintain the desire of waves of alpha players to each have a unique experience, and I ask everyone who wants to comment to give general, and not specific, complaints until alpha is done.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Misery December 16, 2012, 02:26:22 AM
The thing is, I understand that I'm supposed to just be careful. It's not like I'm saying that the game is impossible, here. I'm saying that it really, really needs toned down for the default difficulty because of how tiny the margin for error actually is. I mean it, if they could just add two difficulties on top of the highest, and make Adept about what Featherweight is, or reduce the damage on Adept and use normal damage on Skilled or something, then you'd be able to make it through on Adept, and be challenged on higher settings because you want to be. I don't think a ridiculously hard gaming experience should by any means be the default. Complex, sure. I love the utility of spells, and I've made use of each spell to a rather unique potential that I did not expect. What I don't like is how I can make 3 blunders and be completely dead... which makes me restart the area with no change at all... which makes me want to rush... which makes me die more quickly. The crawler monkeys are more ridiculous because of how they can get stuck in the ground and knock me down by 2.1 health from my 5.0 that I have by default. That's absolutely ridiculous. Blind falls in caves into bat-filled rooms happen, I've been blockaded by enemy projectiles, and my only saving grace was me being lucky that I had a spell that would destroy them. It's not like it's impossible to solve these problems, but getting only a chance to mess up means there's no room for me TO solve these problems.

I do, on the other hand, agree with you on the perks. Stuff like +5% damage or +1 HP are things that I question actually make a difference in the amount of hits it takes to kill, or hits you can survive.

Ultimately, I guess it depends on whether they want you to always be a glass cannon. I mean, the balance is ongoing and all that, and if it does get changed, I'll be happy and I'll play the heck out of this. I love the strategy, and I feel like the strategy actually is a lot more clear-cut than surviving the action segments of the game. I don't understand why I can have such an incredible amount of trouble with the action part, but not even come close to worrying about food or scrap on the other hand... especially when strategy is what I'm actually bad at. It's weird that, as someone very good at action games, I struggle the most with the action parts of this game, having more or less mastered every other Metroidvania that I've played.

At least the crawler monkeys are mostly just trouble due to glitches.... they'll get fixed when the devs have time to do it.    And bats, I'm guessing that SOMETHING (possibly the very high spawn rate) will change about them, since most complaints seem to be along the lines of "ARGH BATS" in the current version of the game;   that alone might make a HUGE difference.    All of the other enemies in the game so far, I actually think work out very, very well...... but the bats seem to make EVERYTHING more frustrating than it currently is.    My biggest problem with it right now as I mentioned in the other thread, is the dark areas.... same as with the first game, I dont like the lighting mechanics much.   BUT.   Just changing the bats around would make those ALOT more tolerable.   Wouldnt be perfect, but it wouldnt drive me totally up the wall either.


Other than that bats though.... I really dont see the game as all that hard yet.   As you said, there's alot of strategy and tactics to each non-bat encounter, lots and lots of different ways to use all of the spells (well, most of them anyway).  And the game has alot of satisfying moments too.... those areas where enemies spawn a zillion projectiles can be nasty, but clearing a spot like that anyway is very satisfying.   So long as it's not also full of bats, then it's just really irritating.   But still, even if I'm taking hits, I seem to recover pretty fast.   

Again though, the bats warp the difficulty to a point where it otherwise might not be.   There's also the fact that only so many enemies are in the game right now; the enemy variety in each area is likely to be MUCH more balanced once they're all implemented.

So, yeah...... bats.   Argh.


@LaughingThesaurus

Part of being in an alpha is that we cannot expect the game to work as intended. The fact the game can be played from start to finish makes it a glorious  alpha already.

Chris already has said the game is too tough, and it was part of the result of him being too used to the game. As someone who has designed scenarios I understand, when you make something you inherently know the counters in whatever form it can be.

So we, as alpha players, are literally in some ways "guina pigs" so I feel any complaints must be taken not with a grain of salt, but a whole shaker of it. It's just the nature of the situation. If you want polish you play the beta, if you want the privilage of first access you take the bitter with the sweet.

The second alpha build compared to the first is already easier in significant ways, and I won't give specifics except through PM's because I want maintain the desire of waves of alpha players to each have a unique experience, and I ask everyone who wants to comment to give general, and not specific, complaints until alpha is done.

Yeah, I agree with this as well. 

I came into this expecting to end up shouting at the screen though, at least, hah.   Such is the nature of alphas/betas, and I've been in plenty that were muuuuuuuuuuuuch buggier and more unbalanced.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: LaughingThesaurus December 16, 2012, 04:04:03 AM
Yeah, I haven't really been a part of any alpha testing before, so I do make extra extra sure that I don't actually lower my opinion of the game unless it's actually hitting 1.0 with complaints that I still have. Debating about it being too tough isn't really all that worth it, but my biggest worry really was that I was just missing something, just because I remembered hearing that the health was almost like "energy tanks in Metroid" or something. So, I'll drop that. Everybody gets the point by now. in fact, they got the point before I said anything.
I'll be revisiting it tomorrow probably on Featherweight, so I can properly check out the later stages of the game. It's been plenty of fun so far, and all of the stuff that I've said have been more or less all of my complaints about it. The rest of it is resoundingly positive!

What I will say is on the subject of metroidvanias giving you way too much health, I point to Metroid Fusion and Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia. In Metroid Fusion, many enemies later on will do more than an energy tank of damage to you in a hit. If you were able to skip suit upgrades, you'd take over 600 damage from certain things... not to mention the SA-X, which has a stressful 20 second or so long chase sequence where getting hit 5 or 6 times by her penetrating and freezing weapon will kill you... IF you have all of the energy tanks up to that point. And Ecclesia has the whole "You're a spellcaster on a solo adventure" thing that I described. So I mean, you can have loads of health and it still be hard. ;)
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: c4sc4 December 16, 2012, 04:09:11 AM
As for enemies one-shotting the player..... I honestly have not seen this.  Unless I step on an invisible crawler monkey, and those dont count.

In my first world, when I chose my character, all the choices had very low health, like 1 or 2 hearts. Being my first time playing, I had no idea how low that really was so I chose a character with 2 hearts. I gave up on that world fairly quickly since I would die in 1 or 2 hits. I don't think characters should be able to start with that low of health, it really is just going to cause players to have a frustrating experience.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Misery December 16, 2012, 06:02:02 AM
As for enemies one-shotting the player..... I honestly have not seen this.  Unless I step on an invisible crawler monkey, and those dont count.

In my first world, when I chose my character, all the choices had very low health, like 1 or 2 hearts. Being my first time playing, I had no idea how low that really was so I chose a character with 2 hearts. I gave up on that world fairly quickly since I would die in 1 or 2 hits. I don't think characters should be able to start with that low of health, it really is just going to cause players to have a frustrating experience.

Yeah, the initial character rolls dont seem as balanced as they could be.  A character starting with 2 hearts instead of 3, and getting, say, a 15% attack boost in return, or speed boost..... NOT worth that trade-off.  Each single heart is pretty major..... a tradeoff of 1 heart for, say, a 50% boost, would seem alot better balanced to me.   Just like with the perks;  if one of the perks for a level is the +1 heart one, that's ALWAYS the one to take.... none of the others (that I've seen so far) even come remotely close to being worth that.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Gemzo December 16, 2012, 07:13:32 AM
The thing is, you get a LOT more HP by end game, so starting with 1 or 2 HP is essentially "I want earlygame to be a ragefest and so I can have a lot of +damage or ammo and make up for my low HP by endgame" Since that does not sound so fun, I would really make the minimum starting HP 3 (even this is pretty low). Maybe give the player the option to tweak it lower to 1 or 2 as a challenge or something but it shouldn't be available in normal random selection. Also perhaps guarantee the player will start with lv1 +HP perk, as that's quite significant.

Also, since there was some confusion about level up towers and perks, I'll explain a little bit more thoroughly. You have access to perks equal to your level. At level 2 you have a level 1 and 2 perk. Each perk starts with 2 of 4 to choose from. you can unlock more choices by finding perk tokens in caves and a few other strucutres. Lower level perks are unlocked by these tokens first. The max level is 21 I believe, and later perks give more stats than earlier ones (like 2 HP). Leveling up is also related to something besides perks that will be essential to victory...But I'll leave that for you to discover.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Misery December 16, 2012, 10:09:58 AM
The thing is, you get a LOT more HP by end game, so starting with 1 or 2 HP is essentially "I want earlygame to be a ragefest and so I can have a lot of +damage or ammo and make up for my low HP by endgame" Since that does not sound so fun, I would really make the minimum starting HP 3 (even this is pretty low). Maybe give the player the option to tweak it lower to 1 or 2 as a challenge or something but it shouldn't be available in normal random selection. Also perhaps guarantee the player will start with lv1 +HP perk, as that's quite significant.

Also, since there was some confusion about level up towers and perks, I'll explain a little bit more thoroughly. You have access to perks equal to your level. At level 2 you have a level 1 and 2 perk. Each perk starts with 2 of 4 to choose from. you can unlock more choices by finding perk tokens in caves and a few other strucutres. Lower level perks are unlocked by these tokens first. The max level is 21 I believe, and later perks give more stats than earlier ones (like 2 HP). Leveling up is also related to something besides perks that will be essential to victory...But I'll leave that for you to discover.


Yeah, I havent seen the end game yet;  I ran into quite a number of goofy glitches and such in my first couple of attempts at the game, so I've restarted numerous times.   For the most part, I've only seen the early game stuff;  as levels go, havent really done more than 3-4 towers in one game.   So, all of my current thoughts on perks and such is based on that.

I have been gathering tokens, but with the perks seeming to be so weak, they usually dont seem to help much.   Though, for all I know, the early perks may combine well with somewhat later ones, and be useful that way, or something.  Dont know just yet.  I'll probably gather MORE tokens though after the patch changes the bats in whatever way.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: madcow December 16, 2012, 11:48:20 AM
Could somebody repost the link to the changelog? I just want to double check I have the latest version.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Gemzo December 16, 2012, 11:58:45 AM
http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Valley_2_-_Pre-Beta_Release_Notes
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: madcow December 16, 2012, 12:02:20 PM
Thanks!
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: chemical_art December 16, 2012, 02:05:42 PM
If you don't have the latest build on the menu you'll have the.option to update, like you would with other arcen games
Peru
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: x4000 December 16, 2012, 08:57:45 PM
New version!  http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Valley_2_-_Pre-Beta_Release_Notes#Alpha_.702
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Gemzo December 16, 2012, 09:08:09 PM
Should I be calling out on that I see a lot of changes that seem to answer my feedback? Like, a lot! That's quite exciting, but I know that usually peoples' names get into the changelogs for that, so I was just wondering if I should say what I suggested or something. Going back through my emails just to check that probably isn't worth it.

Also I'm really happy to see the ammo bug get fixed. Like seriously I needed to stop abusing that. But SRF hacking is so hard, we had to...
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: x4000 December 16, 2012, 10:08:48 PM
Normally we do call people out for specific things, but in this case we'll be doing special thanks for all the alpha testers anyhow, and we're in a tearing big hurry to get this to beta. Alpha testers will all have a special place of prominence in the credits, and then with beta we will be able to breathe a little more and go back to our normal m.o.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: madcow December 16, 2012, 10:22:46 PM
I have to say, while I'm only in the very beginning still. I saved myself on seeing the video you put out like a good boy. I absolutely LOVE the moon artwork I've seen in the background.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Nanashi December 16, 2012, 11:24:04 PM
Any news on whether Beta is still on track for this week? I've got a bit of time to kill and could playtest the Alpha, but if Beta is close to release I'd rather just wait for it.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: cupogoodness December 17, 2012, 12:18:04 AM
Any news on whether Beta is still on track for this week? I've got a bit of time to kill and could playtest the Alpha, but if Beta is close to release I'd rather just wait for it.

Beta will definitely be out this week.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: icepick37 December 17, 2012, 03:19:12 PM
YAY!  :D
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Gemzo December 17, 2012, 05:56:45 PM
I think I've reached that point where I'm burnt out of AVWW2. I mean, after clearing the game twice with Khadgar when nobody else has finished a game start to finish (AFAIK) will do that kind of thing. Now, I'm just in the mood to discuss and comment on issues, but alas, AVWW2 hasn't made its debut on mantis quite yet. Is the subject open to discussion?
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: tigersfan December 17, 2012, 06:07:05 PM
I think I've reached that point where I'm burnt out of AVWW2. I mean, after clearing the game twice with Khadgar when nobody else has finished a game start to finish (AFAIK) will do that kind of thing. Now, I'm just in the mood to discuss and comment on issues, but alas, AVWW2 hasn't made its debut on mantis quite yet. Is the subject open to discussion?

Discussion is probably ok. We're not going to be sending out anymore alpha invites at this point. We're too close to beta for that to make any sense.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Gemzo December 17, 2012, 06:21:07 PM
Alright then, I'll put this idea out for discussion: Tiles with a lot of buildings.

They take forever to get through! It makes sense, but they also have as many as like, 3 henchmen, even before Demonaica has caught on to you. Now while henchman spawning is another subject, I would like to suggest adding shortcuts after you finish a building. Dying after getting far in these tiles just sucks a ton, as it takes a lot of time to get through them. Even one building compared to none can double the amount of time the tile takes to purify. Also, being able to skip these buildings (via extreme mobility) is...extremely desirable because it saves a lot of time. I don't know if this is the intended effect, so I thought I would also mention that.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: tigersfan December 17, 2012, 06:25:40 PM
Alright then, I'll put this idea out for discussion: Tiles with a lot of buildings.

They take forever to get through! It makes sense, but they also have as many as like, 3 henchmen, even before Demonaica has caught on to you. Now while henchman spawning is another subject, I would like to suggest adding shortcuts after you finish a building. Dying after getting far in these tiles just sucks a ton, as it takes a lot of time to get through them. Even one building compared to none can double the amount of time the tile takes to purify. Also, being able to skip these buildings (via extreme mobility) is...extremely desirable because it saves a lot of time. I don't know if this is the intended effect, so I thought I would also mention that.

Most tiles with multiple buildings will only ever have 1 boss fight in them soon.

There are a few exceptions (like the keep) but, for the most part, there will only ever be one.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: khadgar December 17, 2012, 07:28:05 PM
Should I still be emailing feedback? I had one more email's worth.

... nuts to this, I'm doing it anyway!

I'll say here I think getting more than just 9 monsters in the game will be a total game-changer (assuming the enemies have different AI), so it's weird trying to balance spells around only the enemy types we currently have.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Oralordos December 17, 2012, 08:02:07 PM
:
Fixed a bug where wall-crawlers were immune to homing shots that were fired at them.

Fixed the issue with wall crawlers going glitchy and climbing up into the sky. If you see any further glitches with the wall crawlers, please do let us know!
Best things ever! :D
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Gemzo December 17, 2012, 08:44:17 PM
I looked at the upcoming patch log and... While making SRF hacking easier is a thing, I think the nerfs are too large. Shorter run and 1/3rd the spawns? The frantic "gotta get out NOW" feeling only works if it's so overwhelmingly difficult, and yet I was complaining about it being impossible. I think there needs to be a different mechanic besides just how many dudes spawn in.

Also, side suggestion: Have alarm lights go off! Tint the area slightly red and such or something, I dunno. Also would light the area up a little I guess. Just a polish suggestion.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: khadgar December 17, 2012, 09:18:45 PM
I looked at the upcoming patch log and... While making SRF hacking easier is a thing, I think the nerfs are too large. Shorter run and 1/3rd the spawns? The frantic "gotta get out NOW" feeling only works if it's so overwhelmingly difficult, and yet I was complaining about it being impossible. I think there needs to be a different mechanic besides just how many dudes spawn in.

Also, side suggestion: Have alarm lights go off! Tint the area slightly red and such or something, I dunno. Also would light the area up a little I guess. Just a polish suggestion.

I think the chance meant less overland distance to reach the SRF entrace, not less SRF rooms to escape from. But I really like the lights idea. All the lights on the way in are normal, on the way out they are red, maybe a klaxon is sounding too. I really like Super Metroid's klaxon. Annoying, but not SUPER annoying. As long as it meshed with the BGM change (or was integrated into the BGM) it would be perfect. SRF escape BGM is one of my favorite pieces in the game.

Super Metroid klaxon reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8ihqJ15kao
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Misery December 17, 2012, 10:31:50 PM
I looked at the upcoming patch log and... While making SRF hacking easier is a thing, I think the nerfs are too large. Shorter run and 1/3rd the spawns? The frantic "gotta get out NOW" feeling only works if it's so overwhelmingly difficult, and yet I was complaining about it being impossible. I think there needs to be a different mechanic besides just how many dudes spawn in.

Also, side suggestion: Have alarm lights go off! Tint the area slightly red and such or something, I dunno. Also would light the area up a little I guess. Just a polish suggestion.

I think the chance meant less overland distance to reach the SRF entrace, not less SRF rooms to escape from. But I really like the lights idea. All the lights on the way in are normal, on the way out they are red, maybe a klaxon is sounding too. I really like Super Metroid's klaxon. Annoying, but not SUPER annoying. As long as it meshed with the BGM change (or was integrated into the BGM) it would be perfect. SRF escape BGM is one of my favorite pieces in the game.

Super Metroid klaxon reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8ihqJ15kao


Aye, this.

Less size for the SRF zones was something I'd suggested (and probably others suggested it as well);  they really could take quite some time to go through, as not only do you have to go through multiple areas TOWARDS the computer room, but you'd then have to pass through all of them AGAIN on your way out.   It could take much too long..... particularly if you died and had to do it all over again.

Also, I dont think the "get out now!" feeling NEEDS extreme difficulty in order to work.   I think the SRF buildings should be tougher than other areas, maybe require a bit of extra preparation.... but that's it, really.  The Metroid games are good examples.... those "escape"sequences are generally super easy, but they WORK.

Decreasing the spawns, it's hard to say how that'll work out entirely.   My main problem with it was that they tended to spawn ON the player, which was extremely irritating..... that, and the fact that those werent the only enemies, you still had to deal once again with everything that you'd already defeated on your way in, since ALL of them respawn after you hack the thing.     The screwball extra spawning plus that could equal a sort of situation where a new spawn perhaps smacks you with knockback, and you fly right into a lumpy guy, more knockback, into another baddie..... and so on.  Death by sheer bad luck, never a good thing.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: khadgar December 17, 2012, 10:47:59 PM
My main problem with it was that they tended to spawn ON the player, which was extremely irritating..... that, and the fact that those werent the only enemies, you still had to deal once again with everything that you'd already defeated on your way in, since ALL of them respawn after you hack the thing.     The screwball extra spawning plus that could equal a sort of situation where a new spawn perhaps smacks you with knockback, and you fly right into a lumpy guy, more knockback, into another baddie..... and so on.  Death by sheer bad luck, never a good thing.

I agree, worst part was spawning inside of the player, second worst part was not despawning if you fail. I forgot to mention in my email that in a MP game, monsters spawn next to EVERY player present, rather than just the one carrying the data, so that meant that more players was a bad thing. I'll see what ideas they come up with to prevent being locked inside monsters, as it will be a recurring problem on any section here monsters spawn near the player, i.e. SPOILERSdestroying the main oblivion crystal
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: madcow December 17, 2012, 11:06:43 PM
Is the reward from those things random? I need double jump to get my next mage tier. And so far have power slide and the stormdash :P Not really looking forward to trying to find yet another research station on mage tier 2 spells.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: timebomb December 17, 2012, 11:10:52 PM
This is looking really awesome. Thanks for the video, I've been anxiously waiting for it.
: Re: Valley 2 Enters Private Alpha -- First Alpha Screens And Video!
: Gemzo December 17, 2012, 11:46:51 PM
@madcow No it isn't random, you'll get double jump next I think.

So uh, if anyone was wondering, having your starter farm in range of the overlord's first move is the RNG declaring GG. Having it in movement range of the starting warp point is rather annoying to overall strategy but managable. Having a food shortage is pretty much game over, and on the highest strategic difficulty you don't get much time to stockpile food before your farm gets wrecked. With the limited mission range now, rebuilding it without getting killed is even more difficult as well.