Author Topic: Valley 2 Beta .808 "The Sound Of Violence" Released!  (Read 6704 times)

Offline x4000

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Valley 2 Beta .808 "The Sound Of Violence" Released!
« on: February 14, 2013, 09:11:54 pm »
Original: http://arcengames.blogspot.com/2013/02/valley-2-beta-808-sound-of-violence.html

This one has a bunch of stuff, like more monster graphics finalizations and a number of bugfixes.  It also has some pretty major balance change.

Knockback
Knockback was sort of an interesting mechanic the way we had it in the first game, but it's really been overshadowed by other mechanics in the second game.  A lot of player spells used to have knockback, but so many monsters had knockback resistance that it was basically pointless.

Now there are many fewer spells with knockback, but they are way more effective with it because monsters now rarely have much resistance to it.  All in all this makes the mechanic something that is spell-specific but a lot more interesting than it has been so far in Valley 2.

Spell Calibers
Urgh... this one is hard to explain in any depth.  The release notes have all the hoary depth.  But the short of it is that spell calibers are now simpler to understand and use: they have ratings of Low, Normal, High, and Ultimate.  Most player spells are Low.  Most monster spells are Normal.  There are exceptions mainly on the player side, noted clearly in spell descriptions.

A higher spell beats a lower spell when they collide, and spells of equal rating both die when they hit one another.

Where it gets a little crazier is when you start using the perks that give caliber boosts, or the caliber boosts from concentration bars.  These things increase you partway toward the next rating, essentially, but not all the way.  You can therefore use several of your buffed lower-caliber-rating shots to take out a single higher-caliber-rating shot of an enemy in that circumstance.

That's really the overview, and unless you love numbers you don't need the details.  For those who love numbers, of course all the details are in the release notes.  The basic reasoning behind these changes were basically threefold: 1) to make the mechanic clearer in general; 2) to prevent an exploit that some players had discovered in the last little while; and 3) to otherwise change as little as possible, because calibers are really cool and were largely working well.

Lest you think this is a nerf mainly to the players (as someone has already worried), here's some points:

- The henchman fights are basically unchanged for the most part, EXCEPT that the player now has some advantages that they didn't before.  Your ammo based shots can actually block the henchman shots, unlike before.

- The overlord is about the same as he was before.

- Some of the monsters with smaller shots that were incredibly cheese-able (like the Auroch Warriors) are now fixed to work like other monsters that you'd expect.  In other words, the bad edge cases where monsters were too wimpy have been fixed.

- Things like explosive crescent now work more reliably against all regular enemy shots, with a very few exceptions rather than a lot of exceptions.  Things like whips now work against enemy spells like the crescents do, whereas previously they did not (making whips more awesome now).

- Regular straight-shot spells, ricochet spells, and so forth now reliably do NOT work against enemy shots.  That was largely already the case anyhow, but there were funky edge cases where that didn't hold true and felt odd.

Monster Respawning/Despawning
The release notes spell this out in detail, but areas now reset when you leave them, and are back to a more starting state as soon as you re-enter them (you don't have to wait 10 seconds, as in Valley 1 or earlier builds of this game).  It feels a lot smoother this way.

Robot Hacking Escape Difficulty
I've been wondering what Misery was complaining about, because he's a really good player and I could do these hacking escapes without too much trouble.  Granted, I was playing on Adept and he on Hero, and normally I'd play on Skilled or Hero for a true challenge... but it should all scale up, right?

Apparently wrong.  On the harder difficulties, these things got exponentially harder.  They were on the longish side anyhow (understatement of the year), and had some enemies spawning that are truly annoying when you're trying to rush and don't have time to take things more tactically.

I've changed things around so that they are still incredibly tense and you still feel on the edge of losing, but it's not such a foregone conclusion.  I've come within about 1 screen of winning on Hero difficulty at this point, and I'm pretty sure I could do it given another go or even just some basic equipment.  In other words, it might not be perfectly tuned yet, or I might just not be quite good enough for Hero difficulty.  But either way it's in the ballpark of correct.

One thing I want to stress about the robotic hacking escapes is that yes, they are definitely supposed to throw the tactics of the game out the window.  Normally you play with tactics, but here it's more about throwing all that to the wind and trying to frantically escape while robots swarm you.  Stopping to handle things tactically is a bad idea here.  The changes I've made in this version make the monsters weak enough so that this is actually feasible -- you'll take damage constantly through this escape, but it's less damage than usual, sneakily.

It's something to make you feel like you're being brutalized without really doing so.  I got that idea from a Gamasutra article that I can't find to link to, that I read a year or two ago.  I think it was about the boss fights in God of War or something of that nature, where basically you need to have a moderate challenge but feel absolutely on the edge of death just because of psychological cues.  That's going on here to make these sequences seem impossible when they're really just hard.  In prior versions, the problem was that it was actually impossible on the upper difficulties.

All The Player Spell Sound Effects
Now I just have the monster sound effects left to go, and then that will be it for the sound effects work!

More to come soon.  Enjoy!

This is a standard update that you can download through the  in-game updater itself, if you already have any version of the game.  If you have the beta on Steam, it will automatically update for you.  When you  launch the game, you'll see the notice of the update having been found  if you're connected to the Internet at the time.  If you don't have the standalone game, you can download that hereIf you already own the first game, just use your existing license key to unlock the sequel for free!
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 08:58:00 am by x4000 »
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Offline Nanashi

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .808 "The Sound Of Violence" Released!
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2013, 09:43:52 pm »
Bearded lightbulb headed guy with beard is still using female names, so I'm convinced by now that he's a LGBT-friendly character.

Edit: Charge spells now bugged - You can hold them forever, but they don't charge anymore, making them terrible.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 09:49:13 pm by Nanashi »

Offline madcow

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .808 "The Sound Of Violence" Released!
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2013, 08:50:03 am »
I'm curious how these caliber changes are working out. Based just on reading it, seems like player calibers compared to monsters were hit really hard. Kind of wonder if its too much - or at least needs more high caliber options for players.

Offline x4000

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .808 "The Sound Of Violence" Released!
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2013, 08:51:47 am »
Bearded lightbulb headed guy with beard is still using female names, so I'm convinced by now that he's a LGBT-friendly character.

Edit: Charge spells now bugged - You can hold them forever, but they don't charge anymore, making them terrible.

Thanks!

* Fixed an issue in prior versions of the game where the characters really did not have appropriately-themed names for themselves, and in some cases even had a female name for a male character!

* Fixed a bug in the prior version that was causing the charge shots to not be able to charge at all.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .808 "The Sound Of Violence" Released!
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2013, 08:55:48 am »
I'm curious how these caliber changes are working out. Based just on reading it, seems like player calibers compared to monsters were hit really hard. Kind of wonder if its too much - or at least needs more high caliber options for players.

My opinion in playing with it, and designing it, is obviously biased.  But I think this is better-balanced than it ever has been thus far in the life of the game.  It's not super different from what it was before unless you were using the caliber perks and concentration a lot, both of which were newer additions anyhow.

A few points:

- The henchman fights are basically unchanged for the most part, EXCEPT that the player now has some advantages that they didn't before.  Your ammo based shots can actually block the henchman shots, unlike before.

- The overlord is about the same as he was before.

- Some of the monsters with smaller shots that were incredibly cheese-able (like the Auroch Warriors) are now fixed to work like other monsters that you'd expect.  In other words, the bad edge cases where monsters were too wimpy have been fixed.

- Things like explosive crescent now work more reliably against all regular enemy shots, with a very few exceptions rather than a lot of exceptions.  Things like whips now work against enemy spells like the crescents do, whereas previously they did not (making whips more awesome now).

- Regular straight-shot spells, ricochet spells, and so forth now reliably do NOT work against enemy shots.  That was largely already the case anyhow, but there were funky edge cases where that didn't hold true and felt odd.


In other words, it wasn't a wash for the players. :)
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Offline x4000

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .808 "The Sound Of Violence" Released!
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2013, 08:58:49 am »
I went ahead and updated the original article to have all those notes, because I think those really help to illustrate what did and did not change.  If you're worried that it was a huge nerf to players, other people probably are too, which means that my initial explanation really kind of stunk.  ;D
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Offline madcow

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .808 "The Sound Of Violence" Released!
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2013, 09:03:17 am »
Yeah, saying the standard of 100 shots to kill enemy bullets as the norm makes me gape a little ;)

Still will need to see it in action myself!

Edit: I realize the 100 is without caliber perks or concentration bonuses.

Offline Misery

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .808 "The Sound Of Violence" Released!
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2013, 09:11:23 am »
I'm curious how these caliber changes are working out. Based just on reading it, seems like player calibers compared to monsters were hit really hard. Kind of wonder if its too much - or at least needs more high caliber options for players.


In some ways, it does seem like this.   Though whips at least are useful for getting through certain patterns, and ammo spells still work for defense.


As the caliber system goes, my opinion on it as it currently is can be described as "meh".   As far as I'm concerned, it may as well not be there.  I dont claim to understand how the bloody thing works, so the way I'm looking at it's implementation is as such:   

1. Normal spells do not break enemy shots at all.   

2. Whips can be used defensively but only against normal monsters.

3. Campfire and similar spells still work normally (I think)

4. Ammo spells can clear almost anything;  these end up being kinda like screen-clearing bombs in a shmup, and most of the time, are the only existing way to stop most shots.   

5. Caliber perks dont do anything noticable.  Not worth using.  Getting one of these out of a cave is very annoying.

6. Concentration system is weaker now, since the effect on caliber with that is also unnoticable.   It's useful for the damage boost of course, but that's it.   If you already have enough damage from other sources, this can be ignored.


So, most of the time, it boils down to carrying one of those "cloud" type ammo spells if you want to be able to defend by breaking shots.... other than that, with the exception of whips (and technically crescents, but they're bad at defending in that way), and the very rare exception of the "special" spells like Campfire or Water Ring, you cannot actually stop enemy shots.   On lower difficulties, it might be possible to OCCAISIONALLY do it by hitting an enemy bullet more than once with certain attacks (as enemy attacks move slower there, I think), but even then, I'm going to guess that this is pretty rare, and much too fiddly to be worth trying.   On Hero, this simply does not occur, wether by me trying it, or by accident.   Enemy bullets are fairly fast on this difficulty, and specifically aiming at them is kinda silly.  Have yet to have even a single one break without me smacking it with a whip (which I dont do often) or by using a cloud-type ammo spell.



Now as for the hacking areas, I dont have any thoughts on that yet;  I wanted to try one out during my session with the game just earlier, but Demonaica had other ideas, so I havent quite purified the next one yet.

Offline x4000

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .808 "The Sound Of Violence" Released!
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2013, 09:36:56 am »
Yeah, saying the standard of 100 shots to kill enemy bullets as the norm makes me gape a little ;)

Still will need to see it in action myself!

Edit: I realize the 100 is without caliber perks or concentration bonuses.

Well, right.  100 shots is basically meant to be "your shots don't break theirs" while still tracking internal numbers.  Perhaps I confused the issue with that.

As the caliber system goes, my opinion on it as it currently is can be described as "meh".   As far as I'm concerned, it may as well not be there.  I dont claim to understand how the bloody thing works, so the way I'm looking at it's implementation is as such:

In practical terms, what is different now between what you were experiencing before?  In other words, what spells were you using to block enemy spells before that no longer block enemy spells?

1. Normal spells do not break enemy shots at all.

Right.  There were very few that did before anyhow, and largely those that did were unbalanced.  Now you have to aim more properly.  I'm not sure how the caliber system is "meh" at this point because of this.  You have some spells that block, and most of your spells you have to aim around enemies.  That's the whole point; you normally have to aim around enemy projectiles, but you do have some defensive spells.

2. Whips can be used defensively but only against normal monsters.

That's a bit misleading to say.  Yes, "only against normal monsters."  But given that whips could not previously be used even against normal monsters, AND that basically no spells ever worked against the calibers of the henchmen before whereas some now do (they all had a 1000 point boost to their spell calibers), I think that the current system is quite an improvement if you're looking to block enemy spells.

4. Ammo spells can clear almost anything;  these end up being kinda like screen-clearing bombs in a shmup

Right.  They sort of already had this role anyhow, but now their power has been strengthened and made more consistent.  And thus the ammo spells themselves are even more interesting.

5. Caliber perks dont do anything noticable.  Not worth using.  Getting one of these out of a cave is very annoying.

Given that 3 out of 64 perks are related to caliber, I don't see this as a crisis.  That said, combining all three of them is extremely powerful, letting your normal low-power shots clear normal enemy shots in two hits.  With two of these perks it takes three hits.  With one of these, it takes 6, which I agree isn't super exciting.

But what is more relevant is that these things were game-breakingly overpowered before, and I think you're reacting to the fact that they are now more in balance.  It's possible I might need to pump these up some; having one of these potentially is too underpowered compared to when you have two or three of them.  I think you're right that there's an improvement that could be made there.

6. Concentration system is weaker now, since the effect on caliber with that is also unnoticable.   It's useful for the damage boost of course, but that's it.   If you already have enough damage from other sources, this can be ignored.

Well, that was more or less the idea with the concentration bonus in general -- it was always supposed to be a bonus for expert players, not something that was a core part of play.  If it was a required part of play it would be broken.  That said, I do think that it could be interesting to include a sliding scale to the concentration bonuses from this -- so basically earlier concentration tiers give you more concentration and later ones give you less.  This would make it so that the tier 1 concentration is no longer 10 shots to kill an enemy shots, etc.  I think that could make these feel more useful.

So, most of the time, it boils down to carrying one of those "cloud" type ammo spells if you want to be able to defend by breaking shots.... other than that, with the exception of whips (and technically crescents, but they're bad at defending in that way), and the very rare exception of the "special" spells like Campfire or Water Ring, you cannot actually stop enemy shots.   On lower difficulties, it might be possible to OCCAISIONALLY do it by hitting an enemy bullet more than once with certain attacks (as enemy attacks move slower there, I think), but even then, I'm going to guess that this is pretty rare, and much too fiddly to be worth trying.   On Hero, this simply does not occur, wether by me trying it, or by accident.   Enemy bullets are fairly fast on this difficulty, and specifically aiming at them is kinda silly.  Have yet to have even a single one break without me smacking it with a whip (which I dont do often) or by using a cloud-type ammo spell.

I'm not sure quite what you're advocating for, here.  In terms of calibers, if you're constantly bashing through all the shots of enemy X with your spell Y, then basically you're close to invincible against enemy X.  That's beyond broken.  Especially the way it was previously paired with the size of your projectiles.

THAT said, potentially the throw/heave spells and the mass spells could be normal caliber instead of low.  I wasn't really sure what to do with rockets either, but they were pretty OP in prior versions of the game so the low power makes sense to me.

TLDR:

I'm open to tuning thoughts, but I don't think that the underlying system here is really that different from the one before, except that it closes some gaps.  I never claimed that this was perfectly balanced on the first try, however I think it is a lot closer than the old system and in particular lacking the exploits that the prior system had.  In other words, we've now got a shorter way to go to final balance.
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Offline Mick

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .808 "The Sound Of Violence" Released!
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2013, 09:37:06 am »
I have a note on spell balance. I admit that I don't stray too often with what mage classes I try. I find the campfiremancer (not it's real name) to be the easiest tier 1 to jump into the game with and easily pick it every time if it's a choice.

I tried the apotho-whatever-mancer after this patch and instantly just felt "this is terrible, why would anyone play this?"

The primary spell is simply awful compared to the straight up fireball spell of the other with the slow acceleration. It's much more likely for the shot to be blocked by the time it reaches it.

The secondary spell with it's debuff just makes me feel "meh". Debuffing feels so.. hidden. The monsters give no visual indication they've been debuffed, and the debuff effect is not that great. when I'd really rather just kill the thing. I found myself using the secondary not for the debuff, but just because I didn't have to wait so long for the shot to actually REACH the target.

The bomb spell I like in theory but hate in practice. Three seconds is an eternity. An ETERNITY! It should be like 1 second or 1.5 at most.

The ammo spell seemed fine other than the fact that it will blow all your ammo if you aren't careful because it will machine gun out with its .2 second cooldown.

Offline Mick

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .808 "The Sound Of Violence" Released!
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2013, 09:43:21 am »
As to the concentration system, I like the changes so far.

I do think that the perks should probably take a look though by the sound of it. I don't like perks/talents/whatever in games that only get good AFTER you combine them with others, and it feels that may be the case here.

I know some people were really down on the random concept, but I would actually consider using a perk that had an effect of say "20% of your shots will be the next level caliber". It's effectively a critical-hit type of system along the lines of spell caliber. I don't think caliber-crits should be taken off the table, and I think that it would be nice for concentration to use them.

Having any type of system that makes perks just raise the caliber by some percent is probably not going to be able to avoid going from underwhelming->overpowered.

Offline x4000

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .808 "The Sound Of Violence" Released!
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2013, 09:51:07 am »
Okay, will respond in more depth to your stuff in a bit, Mick.  First off, these changes are coming:

* Previously, the concentration bars were increasing your caliber at a flat 10% per concentration tier.
** This led to "number of shots to break a higher-caliber spell" of 10/5/4/3/2/2, which was a rather extreme progression.
** The new progression in total percentages is now 25/30/40/55/60.
*** This leads to a "number of shots to break a higher-caliber spell" progresion of 4/3/3/2/2/2, which is a lot more interesting-feeling sooner without being unbalanced.

* Previously, the concentration bars were increasing your outgoing damage at a flat 25% per concentration tier.  This has been buffed to 35%.
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Offline Oralordos

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .808 "The Sound Of Violence" Released!
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2013, 09:55:46 am »
Well the new caliber system will make fusillade spells much more useful. They fire so fast that it's easy to hit an enemy's shot multiple times before it gets to you.

Offline x4000

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .808 "The Sound Of Violence" Released!
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2013, 10:04:24 am »
More for the next version:

* The caliber perks were definitely underpowered in the prior build.  They were each giving a flat 12% boost each to your power, but now they give you 30/25/15 instead.
** Before the progression was 9 shots to kill an enemy spell, then 5 shots, then 3 shots to kill an enemy spell.
** Now the progression is 4/3/2 instead.
** That third perk is particularly useful when combined with concentration.
*** If you have all three caliber perks, that means that you have no concentration perks.   In that case, your caliber increase is a flat 70% without any concentration.  When you hit 1 bar of concentration that goes up to 95%, which doesn't change much.  But as soon as you hit two bars of concentration or more, suddenly ALL of your spells are instantly a caliber higher.  That's a pretty wicked bonus while you can maintain it, which of course requires not taking any hits.
*** Note that it's not possible to get the one-shotting of enemy projectiles without taking all three caliber perks and having two bars of concentration.  If you take one or two caliber perks and then combine those with some concentration perks, then you can get into the two-shotting enemy shots territory more easily, and then you also get the increased damage output of the concentration system (which you don't get from the perks system).  So there's some interesting choices here.
** All in all these should make the advanced play with the calibers and concentrations a lot more interesting than in the prior release.
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Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .808 "The Sound Of Violence" Released!
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2013, 10:08:47 am »
Quote
The primary spell is simply awful compared to the straight up fireball spell of the other with the slow acceleration. It's much more likely for the shot to be blocked by the time it reaches it.

Good point. Under the old caliber system this spell was a little more useful as it had an enhanced caliber compared to other primaries.

Quote
The secondary spell with it's debuff just makes me feel "meh". Debuffing feels so.. hidden. The monsters give no visual indication they've been debuffed, and the debuff effect is not that great. when I'd really rather just kill the thing. I found myself using the secondary not for the debuff, but just because I didn't have to wait so long for the shot to actually REACH the target.

A visual indicator that your enemy is slowed would enhance these type of spells significantly, I think. I also don't care for separate spells for firing rate slowdown and movement speed slowdown. When I slow my enemy, I want everything slowed, not just one part.

Quote
The bomb spell I like in theory but hate in practice. Three seconds is an eternity. An ETERNITY! It should be like 1 second or 1.5 at most.

I think you're underestimating the usefulness of these a little. They're tricky to use, but once you learn the timings they can be very useful.