Author Topic: Valley 2 Beta .719 "To One Who'll Stand And Fight" Released!  (Read 2606 times)

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Valley 2 Beta .719 "To One Who'll Stand And Fight" Released!
« on: January 24, 2013, 09:04:02 pm »
Original: http://arcengames.blogspot.com/2013/01/valley-2-beta-719-to-one-wholl-stand.html

This one is another "after just one day" release, but it's pretty epic nonetheless.

Soundtrack Complete: New Vocal Title Track
Check. This. Out.  This is one of Pablo's best tracks ever, and I had no idea that his wife Hunter had such an amazing singing voice, either.  You can bet this will be the track to our next trailer for the game, and it's the first thing you hear when you launch the game now.  The link above takes you to a number of comments from Pablo, which give some great insight into the creative process on this one.

Strategic Refinements, Round 5
In round 4, we added the first overland spell for the Demonaica, letting him summon monsters on the world map -- definitely a big deal!  This release adds five more, all of which let him cast debuffs on tiles on the map.  There is one more overland spell that we are considering adding for him, and that would be the full set of overland spells for him for 1.0 -- too many and you get out of the realm of depth and into the realm of more complexity than is good for the design.

There are also a number of other refinements, tweaks, and bugfixes in the strategic area on this one.

Completely Redesigned Henchman Boss Fights
These were definitely the weakest part of the game as of the prior release, and I think that this release really addresses all the largest points.  I'm sure there will be more tweaking and improvements, but I think the fundamental premise here is sound and fun now, rather than being iffy all the way down.

A Really Good Question About Boss Battle Design Goals
On the forums, the following comment came up today from madcow: "I hope we get some multilevel arenas. And some really interesting boss behaviors, boss battles in metroidvania games tend to be epic and what I remember the most in them."

Here was my response:

They're just never going to be a centerpiece of this game, I'm afraid.  I've made things more varied, but I've focused on making things more in line with the rest of the game just on hyperdrive.  Thinking about games like Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, that's a game that had a lot of great core mechanics, and what they did for the final level was pit you against more of those core mechanics in a really interesting way. 

Or thinking about recent Mario games, Super Mario 3D Land had a final boss fight where Bowser is chasing you and things are crumbling and you're running for your life.  It's a lot more interesting than the Bowser boss fights in Mario Galaxy, for instance, which strayed into completely different mechanics from the rest of the game and were shallow and repetitive for it.  Same with Mario 64, really.

Metroid games are kind of a different beast, and the boss fights are built in as a really core mechanic.  That requires a really intense amount of AI and design for a specific boss fight, however, and I think we can all agree that playing the same 6ish boss fights from Super Metroid over and over again wouldn't be terribly compelling.  They are epic in the context of that game because each only happens once, period. 

But with a procedural game like we have here, especially one that encourages serial playthroughs because of the strategic component, that's just not something that fits with the design -- having hugely involved battles on the level of Super Metroid would either lead to huge amounts of repetition of really specific stuff (ugh), or it would lead to an exponential increase in development costs due to us having to spend ridiculous amounts of more time to create dozens or hundreds of boss battles where the entire Super Metroid staff at Nintendo just had six.

All in all, what that really means is that the the boss fights need to overall stay out of the way; they are now a lot less frequent than they were in prior versions, for one thing.  And for another, they are mixing the general game mechanics (rooms with other enemies in them) up with the bosses themselves to create a combinatorial effect.  It helps bring some of the feel of the tactics of the combat of the rest of the game to the boss fights, while not making them too overwrought or lengthy.

Based on my playtesting I think that this is enormously more successful than the past boss fights were, but we'll see where there is room for improvement as more people get their hands on it.

Everything Else
There are also new slices, fixed slices, tons of balance improvements, an interface for changing the difficulty during an existing game, and a variety of bugfixes.  Busy day!

More to come soon.  Enjoy!

This is a standard update that you can download through the  in-game updater itself, if you already have any version of the game.  If you have the beta on Steam, it will automatically update for you.  When you  launch the game, you'll see the notice of the update having been found  if you're connected to the Internet at the time.  If you don't have the standalone game, you can download that hereIf you already own the first game, just use your existing license key to unlock the sequel for free!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline madcow

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,153
Re: Valley 2 Beta .719 "To One Who'll Stand And Fight" Released!
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2013, 09:47:27 pm »
I made it to my first new henchman fight. And uhh, I went through the level backwards. It was pretty funny and needless to say I put in a mantis report.

I miss the old title soundtrack already - is it still in the game somewhere? It sounded similar but not quite the same as AVWW1's title - or was it exactly the same and I'm misremembering. The new one is interesting though, the vocalizations were very much not what I expected :D

Offline Aklyon

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,089
Re: Valley 2 Beta .719 "To One Who'll Stand And Fight" Released!
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2013, 09:50:00 pm »
The old TitleTheme is n the exact same place: ~\A Valley Without Wind 2\RuntimeData\Music\TitleTheme.ogg, and it was a remix of ye olde title theme from avvw1.
The new one, TitleThemeVocal, is right below it.

If its in the game still, I don't know.

Offline madcow

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,153
Re: Valley 2 Beta .719 "To One Who'll Stand And Fight" Released!
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2013, 09:59:19 pm »
Couldn't recall if it was the same thing straight up or a remix version of the original. Though thanks for letting me know the path for them!

Offline Pepisolo

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,511
Re: Valley 2 Beta .719 "To One Who'll Stand And Fight" Released!
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2013, 10:00:20 pm »
I have to say, my first thoughts on the new music were "great track, but seems more like an end credits theme". Just thought I'd post my first impressions. Maybe I'm just too used to the old one, though.

Hmmm, (watching/listening now) actually given that AVWW2 has a scrolling intro with credits (almost like an ending) it kind of works. If the title screen was your typical game one with just the options, I'd definitely prefer the old theme, but.... yeah it kinda works. Nice track.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 10:07:46 pm by Pepisolo »

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
Re: Valley 2 Beta .719 "To One Who'll Stand And Fight" Released!
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2013, 11:19:04 pm »
I was leery of a vocal track. That can go quite bad. So I listened to it, then I listened to it again. I feel silly for doubting Pablo, now. Great stuff. I do somewhat agree that it might be too epic for intro music, though. On the other hand, I'm not sure if it would be fair to tuck it away as end credits music, since that almost always gets skipped.

Offline Coppermantis

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,212
  • Avenger? I hardly know 'er!
Re: Valley 2 Beta .719 "To One Who'll Stand And Fight" Released!
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2013, 01:13:33 am »
Holy cow, that is an amazing main theme. I'm so unused to Pablo's work with vocals, but that was amazing.
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Valley 2 Beta .719 "To One Who'll Stand And Fight" Released!
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2013, 08:37:20 am »
The boss fights are MUCH better now.   Much much more interesting.

There are really only a couple of suggestions I can think of for these:

1.  Add more possible attack types for the bosses.  They seem to be mostly using a variety of player spells.... give them more to pick from!

2.  When the boss gets hit enough to warp, have some new enemies appear in the spots that the player must now walk back through.  I did exactly two boss fights so far, and both of them seemed to be that I needed to walk to the left all the way to find the boss at first, but completing the fight requires then going back to the right..... which isnt as interesting or challenging because I already wrecked all of the enemies on the way there.

The bosses do still seem to be very vulnerable to certain attack types, and some of the rooms they can appear in make it possible to hit them with certain things without them firing (mainly that room where they're on a platform sorta floating in the middle, can just smack them with Sine spells over and over.


The problems with the difficulty levels also seem fixed.   Hero difficulty is right about where I thought it should be, and no longer impossible due to those bloody pigeons spamming 8 billion bullets everywhere.  It's still very hard, but hard in the right way.

The Debris Field spells dont collide with enemy bullets at all, I noticed, are they supposed to work that way?

And the bomb spells went from "very hard to use" to "really, really good".  That was a good change.  I'll be using those quite a lot whenever they're available, I think.  They're still tough to master but they're incredible once you get the hang of them.



And you'll be pleased (or not) to hear that I've found more crawlers doing more weird crap.   These two bugs are a good deal more rare than the others, but the first one in particular can be quite deadly to the player;  I had a death at the end of the LONGEST SURFACE AREA EVER because of it.

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=10458

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=10457


Cant comment on the strategic bit with Demonaica's new spells, as I havent seen him do them yet.


Overall, this is a really good patch.


The one remaining thing I can think of that doesnt seem to have been dealt with yet is the Mercenaries.  Currently, they're useless and absurdly glitchy.   Other than that.... no major issues I can think of right now.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Valley 2 Beta .719 "To One Who'll Stand And Fight" Released!
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2013, 08:46:50 am »
Sweet!

Regarding the boss rooms having to be traversed and then re-traversed, that's actually a bug I need to fix.  The boss should always start on the same side you do, but sometimes evidently is not.  If anyone has a save where that's happening, that actually would be really useful for me to test with.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline madcow

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,153
Re: Valley 2 Beta .719 "To One Who'll Stand And Fight" Released!
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2013, 08:56:33 am »
Sweet!

Regarding the boss rooms having to be traversed and then re-traversed, that's actually a bug I need to fix.  The boss should always start on the same side you do, but sometimes evidently is not.  If anyone has a save where that's happening, that actually would be really useful for me to test with.

I posted a save of after I beat the boss, but in a boss fight room like that. Is that helpful?  Heh

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Valley 2 Beta .719 "To One Who'll Stand And Fight" Released!
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2013, 08:58:08 am »
Got it, thanks!  That actually is just what I need, thanks a lot for that. :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Professor Paul1290

  • Sr. Member Mark II
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
Re: Valley 2 Beta .719 "To One Who'll Stand And Fight" Released!
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2013, 11:55:31 am »
I really like the new title track, though I sort of agree somewhat it feels a bit strange as a title theme.

Aside from maybe a credits theme, I could almost see (or hear) it being played after you defeat a boss or on your way out of a level up tower.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!