Author Topic: Valley 2 Beta .717 "Strategory 64" Released!  (Read 3576 times)

Offline x4000

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Valley 2 Beta .717 "Strategory 64" Released!
« on: January 22, 2013, 09:14:54 pm »
Original: http://arcengames.blogspot.com/2013/01/valley-2-beta-717-strategory-64-released.html

This one comes almost a week after the most recent release, so you know it's going to be packed to the gills with stuff!  As an aside, if you missed it I recently posted an update on our status and plans for Valley 2 and Shattered Haven.

So, let's see -- this release has a lot of new stuff.

Strategy Improvements Round 4
This version really takes several leaps and bounds ahead, building on what we did in the prior three rounds of strategy improvements.

The overlord now gets spells that he can use on the overworld, including summoning monsters that your survivors can then defend against.  This makes it so that the overworld isn't just that "invincible steamroller of inevitability" anymore -- now there is more give and take and strategizing like a proper strategy game should have.

Your survivors now come in one of three classes, each of which is a slightly different flavor with different strengths and weaknesses.  And survivors now also have a power level (as do monsters), which is just a single number that is shown next to them right on the world map -- this is used in monster vs survivor combat, among other related areas.  We happened to notice that this is very vaguely Stratego-like, hence the pun of this release's title.

At any rate, the details on all this are in the release notes here, but the short of it is that we've increased the depth of the strategy game by quite a bit without increasing the surface complexity at all -- the first few turns of the game play out the same now as they did last release.  However, as your familiarity with the strategy game grows, the game inherently grows more complex as you have more pieces on the board and the overlord is also getting more pieces and threatening more at once.

One of the problems with the strategy game prior to now was that it started out intriguing, but then got boring once you figured it out -- it was too easy to fall into a rut.  With the new system, the complexity grows alongside your capabilities in a similar manner to a lot of board games -- not by adding tons of pieces or lots of "breadth" to the game, but instead by focusing on depth when you reach advanced board states.

There's still inevitably more for us to polish and balance here, and we do have another five or six overworld spells planned for the overlord to make for even more variety (these are things he'll gain access to as the turn count increases).  But I'm quite confident in the direction this is heading at this point; the shape of the final strategic game is becoming increasingly clear, which is very satisfying to see.

I suppose it goes without saying that, while old world upgrades are perfectly acceptable, you may find all sorts of oddities in the balance depending on just how old the world is.

Twelve New Monsters
This latest batch of monsters brings us up to a total of 64 out of the planned 116ish monsters for the game.  Only 52 left -- that's well more than half at this point!  It's looking quite likely for us to have all of them in there by the end of this month.

I'm particularly pleased with this batch of monsters because they really introduce some very different monster movement or attack mechanics compared to the other monsters that were already in the game.  And considering that this release is heavy on the robots and clockwork machines, it's fitting that they should have a bit of a different "feel" from the more magical monsters elsewhere.

The monster planning for this game has been an interesting process, starting three or four months ago:

1. First of all I sat down and designed 11 different "monster groups" with the help of Josh (things like Small Walking, Large Walking, Leaping/Crazy, Wall Crawler, etc).

2. Then I divided this into 12 different biomes, each of which would have a unique feel and mix of monsters.  All in all, that would be 134 monsters if we were having a unique monster in every slot of every biome.

3. What I did was actually come up with 114 monsters to fill those slots, with some monsters for more minor roles (like the Carp in the Small Swimming, for instance) filling their role in a number of biomes.  At this point it was just a thematic name and the plans for where reuse would be so that we could shave 20 monsters off the total.

4. Next I had to come up with detailed designs for each of the monsters, so that the artists could actually start working on them.  This also came with having to know a fair bit about how the monsters would act, although there was a lot left to interpretation at this point.  We needed to know if a monster would walk or fly, if they would use ranged attacks or if they'd be melee, if they'd have any obviously armored spots, etc.

5. At this point I handed this off to the artists at Heavy Cat, and work on the concept art started in earnest.  Some of the concept art wound up being so good that later we were able to animate directly from that -- some of the best-looking monsters in the game fall under this category.

6. Next I handed off the list of monsters to Josh, so that he could design the spells in detail for all of them.  In a lot of cases this included progressions for spells becoming more powerful and/or complex as the game proceeds.

7. All of the above was completed by sometime back in October or November, it's hard to remember exactly when.  Next came the implementation phase, which of course is the hardest -- some of the original ideas that I had had weren't all that great, some of the specific spells that had been laid out turned out to be less interesting than new things that occurred to me at implementation time, etc.

8. All in all, the implementation makes for something of a third major draft of the monsters, as they all change substantially as they are implemented -- this has been really rewarding, because it allows for a lot of latent creativity to get in there at the last minute.  Sometimes new groups of monster mechanics occur to me, and then I'll implement some variant of that across several monsters in different functional groups in different biomes with different mixes of other mechanics.  You can see several examples of that in the twelve monsters of this release, for instance.

9. Finally comes the balance and polish.  I playtest all of the monsters thoroughly before they are released, of course, but there's a difference from playtesting them in a test arena with mostly just you versus that monster, and in seeing them "in the wild" with other monsters around.  And on various difficulties, at various points in the game, etc.  When it comes to numerical balance in particular, Josh is again point man -- he's keeping track of all the details of how things feel and what people are reporting, and doing plenty of playtesting himself to make sure that all the numbers come together in a cohesive way without making the game overly hard or any monsters tediously sponge-y.

And that's how a Valley 2 monster comes to life -- the implementation process alone (step 8) takes me 1-2 hours per monster on average.  When you add in all the rest of those steps, you're looking at one to two thousand man-hours to bring you the monsters of Valley 2.  Given how this is affecting the feel of the game for the better, and given how the lack of monsters was such a drawback to Valley 1 in its early 1.0 days in particular, that's a decision that sits easily with me.

Anyway, I thought that those who follow the blog might find that to be an interesting insight into the monster-creation process!

There's other smaller good stuff in this release, too -- and more to come soon.  Enjoy!

This is a standard update that you can download through the  in-game updater itself, if you already have any version of the game.  If you have the beta on Steam, it will automatically update for you.  When you  launch the game, you'll see the notice of the update having been found  if you're connected to the Internet at the time.  If you don't have the standalone game, you can download that hereIf you already own the first game, just use your existing license key to unlock the sequel for free!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Aklyon

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .717 "Strategory 64" Released!
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2013, 09:33:36 pm »
Huzzah for the tankyness of the Urban Sniper being nerfed.

Offline MouldyK

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .717 "Strategory 64" Released!
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2013, 09:36:44 pm »
Well, I guess tomorrow will be used to playtest this thing for me. :D Not had a long game of it in a month.

A side note: Even though I complained about using one button to enter buildings, interact and confirm, when I changed it interact and confirm to A on the Xbox Controller instead of RT like they were before, I felt like it was unplayable, so changed them all back to RT. xD Guess I adapted to it.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 09:47:02 pm by MouldyK »

Offline MouldyK

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .717 "Strategory 64" Released!
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2013, 10:52:43 pm »
Scout Drones: Hate them. TT_TT

- Pushed me into a death pit THREE TIMES.
- 4 at once swarmed me and I died. due to being pushed about.

At first it was like Nemesis Hate, not it's Rage Quit Hate.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 10:58:33 pm by MouldyK »

Offline Misery

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .717 "Strategory 64" Released!
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2013, 03:52:43 am »
This looks like a really good update.  As more of the strategic stuff is added, it's becoming more and more clear as to the type of thing you're going for with this.   In particular, I like the idea of Demonaica being able to DO things other than just Godzilla his way through buildings;  it makes much much more sense for him to do things other than just ramming into structures like that, him being the evil overlord and all.   

The power level thing is a good idea as well;  I like the cover system alot, but having it lead to outright death if the cover roll failed would probably just frustrate.   Now also I can immediately see the reasons to grab more survivors, which was an issue before this.


I'll comment more on this and on the platforming stuffs after some time with it.   But it all sounds great!   ....though I've now lost count of how many new worlds I've created with these updates, hah.   Hard to properly test many of these without restarting.   


EDIT:  One other thing:   Caves.   They're pretty screwed up right now.   My current game I'm not far into, but probably the last 70 minutes has been ENTIRELY just me trying to find a single cave that isnt screwed up in some way.   Usually it's glitched out monster heaps that create impassible sections (from them falling offa ledges;  I put that one into mantis already).  There's a few other issues with these in a general sense though.  I'll try to come up with more particulars to point out, but particularly on higher difficulties many caves.... as in, over half of them.... are unbeatable


EDIT 2:   Hmmm.... I gotta say, there's *alot* of glitches and bugs right now.  Like, a really extreme amount.   I started a new game, and a couple hours in, literally every single sidescrolling area I've been in.... *ALL* of them.... have had numerous bugs appear.   Some, probably about 50% of these areas, are totally unbeatable due to these bugs.  The bugs range from crazy monster glitches (and there are TONS of these right now) to slice glitches.   Right now, honestly, the game is SO buggy that I think I must put it aside for a time and wait for the extreme glitchiness to die down a bit, as I tend not to be very patient with stuff like this.  Best to put it aside and wait rather than get overly aggravated at it.  As it is my current world has to be scrapped anyway, as a crucial tile that I *have* to pass has an impassible slice.

Not to mention that the glitches make things take forever.   I'm over 2 HOURS into the game..... yet Demonaica has not yet come out of his fortress, as not enough turns have passed.   The sidescrolling areas are taking incredible amounts of time to complete due to all of the bugs (particularly the caves).   ....and that's just the ones that CAN be beaten.   The other ones take huge amounts of time to reach spots that I cannot pass, and then just as long to leave, though usually I just use the poison pill.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 05:47:27 am by Misery »

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .717 "Strategory 64" Released!
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2013, 07:45:39 am »
Changes sound amazing. Looking forward to testing this one.

Oh one small idea that I haven't thought about too much -- how about as a game completion reward you unlock a concept art gallery? I like these little rewards in games, Ikaruga has one I think. Not sure, but from the sounds of it HeavyCat must have done a lot of art that hasn't made it into the game, drafts etc. Would be nice to see this stuff as a bonus.

Offline tigersfan

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .717 "Strategory 64" Released!
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2013, 07:54:11 am »
EDIT 2:   Hmmm.... I gotta say, there's *alot* of glitches and bugs right now.  Like, a really extreme amount.   I started a new game, and a couple hours in, literally every single sidescrolling area I've been in.... *ALL* of them.... have had numerous bugs appear.   Some, probably about 50% of these areas, are totally unbeatable due to these bugs.  The bugs range from crazy monster glitches (and there are TONS of these right now) to slice glitches.   Right now, honestly, the game is SO buggy that I think I must put it aside for a time and wait for the extreme glitchiness to die down a bit, as I tend not to be very patient with stuff like this.  Best to put it aside and wait rather than get overly aggravated at it.  As it is my current world has to be scrapped anyway, as a crucial tile that I *have* to pass has an impassible slice.

Not to mention that the glitches make things take forever.   I'm over 2 HOURS into the game..... yet Demonaica has not yet come out of his fortress, as not enough turns have passed.   The sidescrolling areas are taking incredible amounts of time to complete due to all of the bugs (particularly the caves).   ....and that's just the ones that CAN be beaten.   The other ones take huge amounts of time to reach spots that I cannot pass, and then just as long to leave, though usually I just use the poison pill.

I played a lot on various versions of .717, and I know the caves are wonky right now, but, other than that, I've not seen a lot of bugs. Can you please be a bit more specific about what you are seeing? Did you put any of these in Mantis?

Offline Teal_Blue

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .717 "Strategory 64" Released!
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2013, 08:28:54 am »
Don't know about caves, the surfaces tiles have had impassable areas, jumps that are just a bit too high, ran into that twice out of maybe an hour with the game and two turns in. Don't know about the other things, I haven't run into them yet, a few of the monsters are hard, had to jump over several and run away haha, because they were faster on the trigger than i was, but that was not too big a deal.  :)
-T


Offline madcow

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .717 "Strategory 64" Released!
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2013, 08:31:53 am »
Changes sound amazing. Looking forward to testing this one.

Oh one small idea that I haven't thought about too much -- how about as a game completion reward you unlock a concept art gallery? I like these little rewards in games, Ikaruga has one I think. Not sure, but from the sounds of it HeavyCat must have done a lot of art that hasn't made it into the game, drafts etc. Would be nice to see this stuff as a bonus.

I would love a beast compendium in the game that shows art for the monsters, animated versions and a blurb about them. It could be tied to achievements or simply killing a monster.  I don't think it's a real pressing matter though and would be classified as a nice thing to bring up post release.

Edit: as a total aside. What's the reference behind the title of this patch? Sounds like some N64 reference to a game but I don't know what and its bugging me heh.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 08:37:21 am by madcow »

Offline Misery

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .717 "Strategory 64" Released!
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2013, 08:49:29 am »
EDIT 2:   Hmmm.... I gotta say, there's *alot* of glitches and bugs right now.  Like, a really extreme amount.   I started a new game, and a couple hours in, literally every single sidescrolling area I've been in.... *ALL* of them.... have had numerous bugs appear.   Some, probably about 50% of these areas, are totally unbeatable due to these bugs.  The bugs range from crazy monster glitches (and there are TONS of these right now) to slice glitches.   Right now, honestly, the game is SO buggy that I think I must put it aside for a time and wait for the extreme glitchiness to die down a bit, as I tend not to be very patient with stuff like this.  Best to put it aside and wait rather than get overly aggravated at it.  As it is my current world has to be scrapped anyway, as a crucial tile that I *have* to pass has an impassible slice.

Not to mention that the glitches make things take forever.   I'm over 2 HOURS into the game..... yet Demonaica has not yet come out of his fortress, as not enough turns have passed.   The sidescrolling areas are taking incredible amounts of time to complete due to all of the bugs (particularly the caves).   ....and that's just the ones that CAN be beaten.   The other ones take huge amounts of time to reach spots that I cannot pass, and then just as long to leave, though usually I just use the poison pill.

I played a lot on various versions of .717, and I know the caves are wonky right now, but, other than that, I've not seen a lot of bugs. Can you please be a bit more specific about what you are seeing? Did you put any of these in Mantis?


Hmm, I may not have worded my post there quite right.

It's not that I'm seeing alot of bugs:  It's that I'm seeing alot of certain specific bugs that repeat themselves very often.    Is pretty much what I meant.

I did put a bunch of things into Mantis just earlier, and one particular one I forgot to do I'll write up right now here.

Here are the links:

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=10435

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=10437

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=10440

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=10438


The one about the bosses isnt technically a glitch, but it can contribute to an area being unbeatable unless you have a very specific sort of spell with you.   But it's the monster heaps that keep causing the problem.   The glitches with the monsters can happen anywhere, but it's the caves that have the highest chance of producing those clustered groups in a tight corridor that I cant even enter.  Though I've had that occur in buildings as well, and once in an outdoor area.


Also ran into some impassible slices as well, the sort that cant be gotten over without doublejump.  I didn't think to keep a version of the save near them at the time, but I figured I'd mention it anyway.   I saw one like that in a building and a couple others in surface zones.

Offline Mick

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .717 "Strategory 64" Released!
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2013, 09:45:01 am »
Edit: as a total aside. What's the reference behind the title of this patch? Sounds like some N64 reference to a game but I don't know what and its bugging me heh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratego

Offline madcow

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .717 "Strategory 64" Released!
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2013, 09:47:45 am »
Doh. I've actually played that. Guess I wasn't making the link.

Offline tigersfan

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .717 "Strategory 64" Released!
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2013, 10:02:38 am »
Ok, I'm a little concerned about these slices that are impassible, please send those to me if you run into them again. Not just Misery, but anyone.

Offline Billick

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .717 "Strategory 64" Released!
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2013, 02:31:38 pm »
I had a chance to play for a bit today, so here are my preliminary thoughts on the new patch:
1) The class/power mechanics aren't really explained at all.  I see that the different classes have different icons, but nothing shows what that means or why it's important.  There's a number next to the survivor icons now.  I'm assuming that's power, but nothing tells you this.  Maybe this is explained later in the tutorial, but I haven't gotten that far yet?  I still think you should get some info when you inspect a tile like:
Name: Joe Schmo
Class: Warrior
Current Power: 4
Max Power: 9
Max Movement: 4

2) I had a skelebot research facility spawn right next to the start area in the game I started today.  This may be valid, and  I just haven't had it happen in previous games, not sure.

3) I haven't finished more than a couple turns yet, but there are a couple of things that concern me.  I don't think that this patch addresses the issue that a lot of new players are having which is "The Overlord came out and wrecked my farm and clinic on his first 2 turns, and now I'm screwed."  From what it sounds like, lower difficulties will actually be harder now early game because he will be moving 3 squares per turn rather than 2 at the start, plus you now have to deal with monsters (this could be wrong though).  Also, it seems that there could be a situation where it's always best to just attack monsters ASAP (kind of defeating the purpose of adding them).  This may not be the case, but just something to watch out for.

4) The perimeter guard seems to have a ton of health.  I realize that it's supposed to have a lot compared to other enemies, but it seems to be a bit overboard.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Valley 2 Beta .717 "Strategory 64" Released!
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2013, 03:05:16 pm »
The class/power mechanics aren't really explained at all.  I see that the different classes have different icons, but nothing shows what that means or why it's important.
While in the game:

1) Press Escape
2) Click "Help" (it's the top button on the escape menu)
3) Click "Strategy Game Tips"
4) The topics "Know Your Allies: Power" and "Know Your Allies: Classes" provide fairly detailed descriptions of those mechanics.

Where else does it need to tell you these things?

Thanks :)
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