Author Topic: TotalBiscuit explains AVWW in one sentence.  (Read 19340 times)

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: TotalBiscuit explains AVWW in one sentence.
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2012, 03:24:36 pm »
:) Actually I think a Terraria method of input is probably best, because it can form a common baseline almost everyone can use. As much as I think the restrictions & advantages of keyboard/gamepad controls enhance the combat and make more spells accessible at once, I'm willing to sacrifice that for a more unified control scheme. I think WoW-style controls don't really suit this game unless you have a huge mouse, which most people don't. Forcing WoW-style controls into the game makes it hard for people to adjust to the controls, which then causes some people to dislike the combat and in general leads to the extreme fracturing of control schemes we've experienced. And I think it's important for a platforming game to have as uniform a control scheme as possible.

See, my experience has been that people just sit down and play, for the most part.  Without explanation, we watched like 300 people do this.  They intuitively understood to press button 4 to use whatever ability, and watched it pop out at the mouse.

Granted, we don't have a control group of people that we tried a more Terraria-like control scheme on.  But I'm reluctant to make that the default on a hunch, after watching so many people go through the intro mission and figure out what IS there so intuitively.  If they can get to the point of playing and having fun without any instruction, and then later tune to their precise preferences, that's really the end goal for me.  I think we're pretty much there in the main.

That said, having options for swapping out stuff Terraria-style is not currently supported and clearly should be; because some people clearly would prefer that, and that's great. 

In terms of "having as uniform a control scheme as possible," we've had that conversation before and that's just something I intensely disagree with.  The experience should be whatever the individual player wants it to be.  It's not a competition!  They can play on whatever screen resolution, whatever control scheme, and using whatever difficulty level they like.

Also, since this is a thread about totalbiscuit. I'm kind of curious how big a bump in sales you guys got after the video :D

It's hard to separate that sort of thing out because lots of things happen all at once.  But at least a few thousand dollars from the look of things.  Perhaps more, but it's hard to judge against the normal background noise of hourly fluctuations and other press that happened the same day, etc.

My favourite part of this was when he used a rock throw spell with a set arc/weight physics thing and complained about it not? hitting where he had his cursor pointed and said the spells were inaccurate.

Maybe if I try really hard I can one day grow up to be as good at the video games as tortleboscuit.

Please let's have a little more respect towards other forum members -- whether they are famous youtubers, game developers, or "just" players, we should all treat each other with respect please.

In terms of the actual complaint about throw rock not going at the cursor, that did bug me also.  But what can I really say to that, it was a first impressions piece.  For anyone following along, the position of the mouse cursor sets the trajectory of the rock, and then the rock follows a pattern of physics from then on.  For most spells which are not affected by gravity, they are perfectly accurate, which is what Tobias was getting at.

Still -- criticizing someone for not noticing that immediately isn't exactly fair either.  That was one of the comments I wasn't over the moon about in the video, but in terms of a first impressions piece that was legitimately his first impression.  That gets me thinking less about his skills and more about how we could better convey what is going on to the player, to be frank.  Some other players have complained about dodgy controls and it makes me wonder if it was some sort of miscommunication like that.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Volatar

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,055
  • Patient as a rock
Re: TotalBiscuit explains AVWW in one sentence.
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2012, 03:26:19 pm »
My favourite part of this was when he used a rock throw spell with a set arc/weight physics thing and complained about it not? hitting where he had his cursor pointed and said the spells were inaccurate.

Maybe if I try really hard I can one day grow up to be as good at the video games as tortleboscuit.

I think Youtube is leaking.

Offline bvchaosinc

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 47
Re: TotalBiscuit explains AVWW in one sentence.
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2012, 03:34:41 pm »
I think Youtube is leaking.

That's my fault, I made them make account registration to simple now any kind of riffraff can get in here.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: TotalBiscuit explains AVWW in one sentence.
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2012, 03:35:48 pm »
I think Youtube is leaking.

That's my fault, I made them make account registration to simple now any kind of riffraff can get in here.

 ;D  I'm glad we can laugh about that now.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Volatar

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,055
  • Patient as a rock
Re: TotalBiscuit explains AVWW in one sentence.
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2012, 03:36:35 pm »
I think Youtube is leaking.

That's my fault, I made them make account registration to simple now any kind of riffraff can get in here.

 ;D  I'm glad we can laugh about that now.

I missed something.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Bluddy

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
Re: TotalBiscuit explains AVWW in one sentence.
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2012, 03:38:12 pm »
I think the dodgy controls complaint has to do with wanting to use more than 2 spells. So long as you're only using 2 spells, a regular mouse is fine. You can also fire off the occasional spell with the number keys. It's when you want to use a whole bunch of spells that the problems come up, and that's when a Terraria-style configuration works really well. The problem with WoW style controls in this case is that you're right -- they mostly feel fine and natural (perhaps they're the most natural controls). You only notice that you're really straining to use more than 2 spells after you've done it for a while, at which point you start fiddling with the controls to try make them more comfortable -- and you don't want your average user to need to fiddle with the controls, because the result will always be frustration (on average).

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,332
  • A Paladin Without A Crusade...
Re: TotalBiscuit explains AVWW in one sentence.
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2012, 03:40:19 pm »
My favourite part of this was when he used a rock throw spell with a set arc/weight physics thing and complained about it not? hitting where he had his cursor pointed and said the spells were inaccurate.

Maybe if I try really hard I can one day grow up to be as good at the video games as tortleboscuit.

I think Youtube is leaking.

Funny, that's what I thought too when T there started talking. Heh, in any case, I find his point valid in some respects on physics and aiming, at least for new peeps. Maybe if we had an arc showing where the rock was going to hit?

King
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 03:50:06 pm by KingIsaacLinksr »
Casual reviewer with a sense of justice.
Visit the Arcen Mantis to help: https://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/
A Paladin's Blog. Long form videogame reviews focusing on mechanics and narrative analyzing. Plus other stuff. www.kingisaaclinksr.com

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: TotalBiscuit explains AVWW in one sentence.
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2012, 03:46:00 pm »
I think the dodgy controls complaint has to do with wanting to use more than 2 spells. So long as you're only using 2 spells, a regular mouse is fine. You can also fire off the occasional spell with the number keys. It's when you want to use a whole bunch of spells that the problems come up, and that's when a Terraria-style configuration works really well. The problem with WoW style controls in this case is that you're right -- they mostly feel fine and natural (perhaps they're the most natural controls). You only notice that you're really straining to use more than 2 spells after you've done it for a while, at which point you start fiddling with the controls to try make them more comfortable -- and you don't want your average user to need to fiddle with the controls, because the result will always be frustration (on average).

Yep, those are very valid points.  I suppose it's mainly a question of whether or not people would immediately pick up Terraria-style controls or not, and right now I don't have any particular indication that they would.  Or that they wouldn't, come to that.  As I've said, I'll put that in as a control option, and we'll see how it goes.  I'm just not willing to flail at this without more data.

In terms of the actual implementation, my way of doing it would not be quite like Terraria.  It would just be that "if you press the number 5, it swaps what is in slot 5 and slot 1."  That keeps things relatively more simple in terms of not needing lots of interface changes that would be way more time consuming.  And I think it would be as clear as it can get while still maintaining the ability for many-button mice to actually function.  Unlike Terraria, having two or three or even five buttons with your mouse makes a great deal of sense here, and shifting where the left mouse button is mapped makes that sort of control a lot harder to deal with.  Easier conceptually to switch the item rather than the position of the mouse.

My favourite part of this was when he used a rock throw spell with a set arc/weight physics thing and complained about it not? hitting where he had his cursor pointed and said the spells were inaccurate.

Maybe if I try really hard I can one day grow up to be as good at the video games as tortleboscuit.

I think Youtube is leaking.

Funny, that's what I thought too when T there started talking. Hehehehee :D

King

Okay, what I said to Tobias goes both ways: we don't need other people piling on him now.  I don't want to be scolding anybody, but if this place is going to remain positive and the way it has been for the last three years, we're all going to have to use some restraint when somebody says something rude.  Lead by example!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Penumbra

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 464
Re: TotalBiscuit explains AVWW in one sentence.
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2012, 03:50:24 pm »
It would just be that "if you press the number 5, it swaps what is in slot 5 and slot 1."  That keeps things relatively more simple in terms of not needing lots of interface changes that would be way more time consuming.

What happens when you press two numbers, does it reset to what it was before, or does it just keep swapping. Because if it doesn't reset, you'll never remember where your old skill went.

Eg:

Code: [Select]
A B C D E
1 2 3 4 5

You press 5

E B C D A
1 2 3 4 5

You press 2

B E C D A
1 2 3 4 5
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 03:53:06 pm by Penumbra »

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,332
  • A Paladin Without A Crusade...
Re: TotalBiscuit explains AVWW in one sentence.
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2012, 03:50:54 pm »
Bah, Chris, I just edited my post and you beat me to explaining what I just thought up, my apologies.
Quote
Funny, that's what I thought too when T there started talking. Heh, in any case, I find his point valid in some respects on physics and aiming, at least for new peeps. Maybe if we had an arc showing where the rock was going to hit?

King

King
Casual reviewer with a sense of justice.
Visit the Arcen Mantis to help: https://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/
A Paladin's Blog. Long form videogame reviews focusing on mechanics and narrative analyzing. Plus other stuff. www.kingisaaclinksr.com

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: TotalBiscuit explains AVWW in one sentence.
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2012, 04:00:01 pm »
What happens when you press two numbers, does it reset to what it was before, or does it just keep swapping. Because if it doesn't reset, you'll never remember where your old skill went.

It would just keep swapping ad infinitum.  But it's all right there on your screen, so you can easily drag your inventory around if you really need to.  We'll see how it works out.

Heh, in any case, I find his point valid in some respects on physics and aiming, at least for new peeps. Maybe if we had an arc showing where the rock was going to hit?

The largest problem with that is that we don't have any concept of an active spell.  You could use any spell, whether mapped to LMB or not.  The second largest problem is that I think that would take all the skill out of aiming if you essentially had a laser sight.

And the third largest problem, which is a biggie, is that this would be computationally intensive; just drawing the arc alone is one problem (drawing arbitrary curved lines is not something GPUs are the best at natively, although it can be done; it would be an extension of our graphical drawing capabilities, though).  But then you also get into issues of if we're trying to project the exact times it would collide with things, etc.  That's intensely complex.  And not only that, the arc angle itself would be intensely hard to calculate in advance -- the way the rock moves it has a certain velocity (based on angle of fire) and a certain drag.  It moves reliably based on that.  However, I'm not a good enough mathemetician to know of a formula for translating that into a curved line.  We'd have to stepwise simulate it as it went, plotting points as we went.

That's certainly feasible, but goodness it's more work than I care to do for something of this nature to be honest.  Every feature has a cost in terms of meaning that if we do feature X that means that time wasn't spent on feature Y.  I think there's many more exciting things that could be worked on in this case, personally.  Most people figure out the angle of the rock thing pretty fast, and if TB had more time with it I imagine he would have quite soon as well.  The question is if we can do something to make the overall first impression easier, and I was thinking more along the lines of tooltip wording honestly. ;)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,332
  • A Paladin Without A Crusade...
Re: TotalBiscuit explains AVWW in one sentence.
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2012, 04:03:50 pm »
It was an idea, :D, though even I didn't really want it either and if it takes that much time, it's not that necessary for people to essentially learn it in a short amount of time. :)

King
Casual reviewer with a sense of justice.
Visit the Arcen Mantis to help: https://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/
A Paladin's Blog. Long form videogame reviews focusing on mechanics and narrative analyzing. Plus other stuff. www.kingisaaclinksr.com

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: TotalBiscuit explains AVWW in one sentence.
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2012, 04:07:20 pm »
Just responding to the idea. :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Penumbra

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 464
Re: TotalBiscuit explains AVWW in one sentence.
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2012, 04:19:46 pm »
What happens when you press two numbers, does it reset to what it was before, or does it just keep swapping. Because if it doesn't reset, you'll never remember where your old skill went.

It would just keep swapping ad infinitum.  But it's all right there on your screen, so you can easily drag your inventory around if you really need to.  We'll see how it works out.

I am not actually a fan of this interface method, but I'm all for people having options. I just think that if in Half Life your crowbar ever moved to 4 just because you used it before your RPG, it would be really counter-intuitive. Even if the new mapping were shown on the screen.

There is a connection between buttons and skills. Some people like these buttons to directly use these skills, like WoW. Others like them to be indirect, and merely change what another action button does, like an FPS or Terraria. Both systems give the user that connection between "7" and "fireball" (or whatever). Having a mapping system that requires the user to keep track of state, ability usage order, and pivot points would become confusing.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 04:24:51 pm by Penumbra »