Too artificial buildings maps?

[Smiling Spectre]

I am love to search all this dungeons and buildings. But one issue catches my attention now and again: simple graph structure of most dungeons. I tried to rise question in bug tracker, but it was closed because, well, it's too minor to consider right now, in 0.5 versions. They are right - bug tracker is not very appropriate place to discuss such things in general, apart of immediate use. So I created this theme.

So, for me (I am only L5 yet) there is only two types of structures: buildings and caves.

Caves looks almost normal ("almost", because it's always one-way, from up till down and no turns and twists). It have "even" distribution of places and bosses, so it's ok for me for now.

But buildings are another case.

Of course, it's one-way too. That is slightly strange, but bearable. But why it is such right-hand-oriented? I don't see much use of it (except obvious consequence: if you need highest point, always select far right entrance to next floor). Why such pyramid-like design? Most buildings known to me are "even", having sometimes narrowing close to roof - but often it's not a case. And in world of AVWW, it seems, all buildings are designed by pyramid maniacs. Also, yes, it's slightly strange that all this ruined rooms tend to be on the edge of graph, and never in the middle. In reality it would be random, including, of course, stairs and hallways. Yes, I can understood that it's not "real map", it's only graph, organized like map - but why? Is there any in-game reason of it?

So for me in first it must be randomization of room in floor plan (no auto-grouping stairs to right and ruined rooms to left) - actually, I would be totally happy if "real" doors would be more or less directly projected on map in terms of relative positions.  And in second, it would be good to have more variety of building plans (not only pyramids, but even blocks, trees and bushes too . Current design is too predicable, and boring, and artificial (in bad sense of the word - I am aware that buildings itself are artificial objects .

Am I only one who troubled by this issue?

[Armanant]

I think you're confusing what the dungeon map represents. It isn't actually a floor plan of the house/dungeon/cave, it's a logical map showing their connections.

For example, lets say I have a cross shaped building like this

       4
       |
1----2----3
       |
      5

With an entrance at 1.

This would be represented in the game by a map like this:

 ___________
|_3_|_4_|_5_|
|____2_____|
|____1_____|

Sure, it might 'look' different when drawn this way, but it is exactly identical in practice. Don't try to take the logical map of the dungeons as an actual floor plan of the cave/dungeon/building 

[zebramatt]

It is true, however, that you don't get any loops, apart from side links.

For example:

       4                       8
       |                        |
1----2----3       2a----7
       |      |         |      |
       5----6        9---10

                      ____________
        _______|_8_|___10__|
 ___|___6___|___7___|_9_|
|_4_|_3_|_5_|____2a_____|
|___________2__________|
|___________1__________|

Equally, you don't get any buildings in Valley with a stairwell at either end of a corridor running up the entire height of the building, which is relatively common in real buildings.

[Armanant]

It is true, however, that you don't get any loops, apart from side links.

For example:

       4                       8
       |                        |
1----2----3       2a----7
       |      |         |      |
       5----6        9---10

                      ____________
        _______|_8_|___10__|
 ___|___6___|___7___|_9_|
|_4_|_3_|_5_|____2a_____|
|___________2__________|
|___________1__________|

Equally, you don't get any buildings in Valley with a stairwell at either end of a corridor running up the entire height of the building, which is relatively common in real buildings.

Ahh, but that's where vents come in (for the former)


                              ________
                _______|_8_|10#|
 _______|_6*|___7#__|_9_|
|_4_|_3*|_5_|____2a_____|
|___________2__________|
|___________1__________|

Think that covers the example.. though Vent =/= Door, no reason why they couldn't be doors... (works better with caves really, with their Hole=Door).

I agree the double staircase thing, but really, that can just be a function of building size in a way. I mean, if they implement double staircase you could complain all the way up the n+1 ladder, in the end arguing that it's not possible to run into the logical layout of heathrow airport :-P

PS: WOOO ASCII maps are fun!

[tigersfan]

This is correct, the map in the corner is just a simple representation of what rooms you have explored/scouted, and where they lead. It's not meant to be exhaustive.

[Smiling Spectre]

Hmm. It seems, I am still unclear with my complaints. Sorry for that. I am Russian, and even on Russian I have some problems with explaining my thoughts. Let me try it again, sorting my complains.

1. Yes, I know that "minimap" in the corner actually is graph. I simply see no reason to be it a such graph. Why to? It can be a "real" map too! Actually, most of dungeon maps is the same graphs.

2. "One-way" graph by itself is too artificial. There isn't any buildings, except simplest ones, that haven't real loops, double staircases, secret (unused) doors, several entrances/exits etc. But... yes, it can wait. It could be realized in long-time perspective - or not. It would be a pity, but I can live with it.

But I see no reason for it to be one-way graph in such, "vertical" design. Yes, current graph logically is equal to the same graph but with branches going up and down. But for human perception it is still different! If it was "flat", it could be bearable - but I see ladders here and there! And all of them goes only up!

3. Well, let all this buildings to be one-way only. But then only difference of current graph from "real" map is this "autosorting" of all things. But... is this necessary? Really? For me, it only create needless level of artificialness. That, in turn, breaks suspension of disbelief somewhat. And, well, creates some confusion too. Also it gives totally out-of-place possibility to get to maximum floor simply selecting rightmost exit. Precognition, I think. Is there another reason to have "sorted" map?

Enough for now, I think.

[edit]

Oh, wait, I just recall last "issue".

4. All building maps are "collapsing", adding up to mentioned "pyramid" design. Room of 6 cells can lead only to room of 6<=cells and have connection only to max. 6 rooms. Every one (if it's more than one) will be at max 5 cells, etc. In the end, 1-cell room can only expand to the same room or end the chain.

I think, it's an example of design choice that affects gameplay and results in predicable (so artificial) results. Each "base" level gives only size that <= it. And I don't think that it is needed, actually. Of course, you still need this "actual" width, but it not needed be "visual" one!

Let's try already described design:
                              ________
                _______|_8_|10#|
 _______|_6*|___7#__|_9_|
|_4_|_3*|_5_|____2a_____|
|___________2__________|
|___________1__________|

Why it must be layed out such way? It could be made like this:

                       ________
                ___|__8_|10#|
 _______|_6*|_7#_|_9_|
|_4_|_3*|_5_|_2a_____|
|_______2___ ___|
                     |_1_|

Such way, of course, not very "nice", comparing with previous variation. But it's more "natural", allows more variations and not so predicable! Also, for niceness it could (and actually must) be "filled" with "empty" blocks:

                       ________
                ___|__8_|10#|
 _______|_6*|_7#_|_9_|
|_4_|_3*|_5_|_2a_____|
|_______2___ ___|__0_|
|____0____|_1_|_0____|

Of course, logically this scheme don't differs from previous one. It is based on it after all. But a) it looks more natural (for me), and b) it allows "expanding" that not possible in current design. Like that, for example:
________
|9_|10|11|
|__8____|
|6|7|_0__|
|3__|4_|5|
| __2____|
|1|__0___|

Now it's really all that I can say. For now.

[zebramatt]

I too would welcome a floor plan map. It's fairly common amongst dungeon crawlers, Zelda, etc.

The current method to mapping is unconventional but not necessarily bad - just different.

[Terraziel]

Hmm. It seems, I am still unclear with my complaints. Sorry for that. I am Russian, and even on Russian I have some problems with explaining my thoughts. Let me try it again, sorting my complains.

1. Yes, I know that "minimap" in the corner actually is graph. I simply see no reason to be it a such graph. Why to? It can be a "real" map too! Actually, most of dungeon maps is the same graphs.

As i recall from the last time this came up the basic reason for the map being what it is is so that maps don't take up more screen space than they have to.

[tigersfan]

As i recall from the last time this came up the basic reason for the map being what it is is so that maps don't take up more screen space than they have to.

Yeah, this is correct. We're trying to keep as much real-estate available as possible.

[Smiling Spectre]

Yeah, this is correct. We're trying to keep as much real-estate available as possible.

Aww. This issue I didn't consider.

Well, I would prefer "natural" map to more space anyway. But it's a serious issue after all...

As I am not like to choose, then (in ideal world, and if I would be genius developer) I could give a choice between "natural" and "sorted-out" map.

[zebramatt]

As i recall from the last time this came up the basic reason for the map being what it is is so that maps don't take up more screen space than they have to.

Yeah, this is correct. We're trying to keep as much real-estate available as possible.

I'm a bigger proponent of this than anyone, though there are other ways to slice that particular cake where maps are concerned.

That said, I imagine you'd always want the graph map to be an option so even if an alternative were developed, it would be secondary.

[tigersfan]

I'm not saying other types of maps are always out of the question. But, it's definitely not something I think we should focus on right now. But, for the future, who knows what will happen? :-)

[zebramatt]

I think that's why Spectre opened the discussion to the forum: for the future; I don't think anyone's particularly screaming out for a map revamp right now!

[Nalgas]

All of the complaints are very valid, and they have always kind of bugged me a little, but using the graph display saves an enormous amount of space, especially for the larger buildings/caves.  I can live with that, even if it is sort of silly sometimes having the "up" stairs and "down" stairs both go in the same direction on the map.

That and the current restrictions on how buildings are generated does make the layouts feel kind of "samey" and predictable after a while, though.  I can't argue with that.

[Echo35]

I do like the graph myself, although it's not always drawn properly for me. I've had rooms above me on the map that were basements or downward stairwells, and even viewing the map as a spmple grid layout, it's still kinda confusing.